Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[vishnugupt]

Really dude, do you really have anything to contribute other than "armed forces bad" ?

I want to have a fruitful discussion here about how theaterisation may or may not hamper our air force capabilities. Our ACM says it will, and @Blademaster here says it won't since USAF and other NATO AFs are already doing it (I doubt if they are doing it the hard way).

If you just want to do RR and cuss the evil world, do it somewhere else, if you want I can even open a dedicated thread just for you to unravel the corruption and hopelessness of our armed forces.

Ok. I gave you best example but you derived wrong conclusion. Let me explain as following.

1) late decision making and involving multiple clearance windows are biggest hurdle in war. ( Late involvement of IAF in Kargil war)

2) there is not responsibility if air Airforce fail to act whenever demanded by foot soldiers. (Kargil war)

3) Will rationalised assets and no duplication of assets ( 6 Apache for IA and 22 for IAF)

4) Common training schools

5) Very Swift and full force retaliation for any aggression on border unlike happened on LAC.

6) streamline of work ( one job one command) now days IAF do air defense, air defense operations, transport.

7) Integration will decrease the discrimination among the forces. ( IAF chopper ran away and left CRPF soldiers to die in Chhattisgarh when their chopper come under attack)

8) This is lie that allocation of assets is fix for each theatre. Infact it is mobile according to situation ( for which ACM is crying)

9) Three wings of Armed forces is things of past ( Air, ground, Navy). Now days even cyber security is also a front. We need separate command for each work as threats become so much saturated that one wing can't handle 4 types of threats.

10) theaterisation will ensure better availability, upgrade of infrastructure and repair of assets.

11) Theatre will be commanded by relatively young officers unlike cosy generals chilling in AC office hundreds of miles away.

 

[Blademaster]

I am not familiar to ORBAT of USA, UK and France, maybe you can tell us how they are managing, or point us towards relevant material that explains the same ?

For UK, look on how they are sharing the F-35s and the helicopters between the Air Force and the Navy and look at how they share the Marines between the Navy and the Army.

Check this link out for another example of joint command. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Expeditionary_Force

Another one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Joint_Headquarters

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

as expected .

am i wrong or is IAF going from bad to worse. hope this is false news.

This BS of news was shared by some local media way back in May.

Upgrading Su30MKI to Super Sukhoi standards with Russian help was put in the garbage bin years back since Russia has nothing to offer.

The indigenous program is the one that is currently underway.

Russia has not offered the N036 Byelka radar for the Su30, so such news articles make zero sense.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

If I recall, back in the day when we did not have UTTAM AESA Radar Ready, The Russians were offering us their Zhuk AESA radar for SU-30 MKI.

Zhuk AESA is better suited for Mig 29 rather than Su30.
The Russians themselves don'tuse the Zhuk AESA radar on their Su-27, Su-30, Su-34 or Su-35 fleet

 

[Super Flanker]

Zhuk AESA is better suited for Mig 29 rather than Su30.
The Russians themselves don'tuse the Zhuk AESA radar on their Su-27, Su-30, Su-34 or Su-35 fleet

We should not depend upon the Russians for Super Sukhoi Upgrade, we should go for our own Indigenous upgrade package, with the exception of the Engine, we can replace pretty much all the components and sensors in SU-30 MKI with Indian origin ones.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

anyone know how does china approach this ?

do they have a separate air defence command ?

PRC has divided all sectors of operation in different theater commands (TC).
PLAGF and PLAAF have their independent SAM assets.
PLAGF at combined corps level have a direct command on its medium-range air defense systems (HQ-16).
At combined arms brigade level PLAGF uses short-range air defense systems (HQ-17, Type-95 SPAAG, etc).
At battalion level PLAGF uses MANPADS.
PLAAF is having its own AD assets. I believe they are under direct command of their respective divisions.

 

[mist_consecutive]

You are incorrect with your information, buddy.

Ok. I gave you best example but you derived wrong conclusion. Let me explain as following.

1) late decision making and involving multiple clearance windows are biggest hurdle in war. ( Late involvement of IAF in Kargil war)

Late decision-making is not related to theatrisation. It is just a bureaucratic hurdle. In fact IAF started flying recee sorties in the first week of May itself, (for comparison, a full-fledged army offensive started in the first week of June).

Also, late involvement of IAF was due to our fcuking peacenik govt. allowing IAF operations late, that too, in limited quantity to not provoke Pakistan.

2) there is not responsibility if air Airforce fail to act whenever demanded by foot soldiers. (Kargil war)

IAF lost 2 jets & 1 helicopter to enemy fire. IAF tried its best during that time using whatever capabilities it had to offer. I don't think the talk of responsibility comes here.

3) Will rationalised assets and no duplication of assets ( 6 Apache for IA and 22 for IAF)

Agreed.

4) Common training schools

We already have that.

5) Very Swift and full force retaliation for any aggression on border unlike happened on LAC.

IAF was heavily involved in LAC conflict (still is).

6) streamline of work ( one job one command) now days IAF do air defense, air defense operations, transport.

Agreed.

7) Integration will decrease the discrimination among the forces. ( IAF chopper ran away and left CRPF soldiers to die in Chhattisgarh when their chopper come under attack)

You really have no idea about operational SoP. Air platforms always retreat if in imminent danger (unlike Abhinandan, and you know what happened when we don't follow SoP).

8) This is lie that allocation of assets is fix for each theatre. Infact it is mobile according to situation ( for which ACM is crying)

But I am sure there is more to it. You are just warping facts to sound more anti-IAF.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, so what I really wanted to ask is how theatrisation may/may not hamper operational preparedness of IAF

I will still wait for that discussion.

 

[mist_consecutive]

For UK, look on how they are sharing the F-35s and the helicopters between the Air Force and the Navy and look at how they share the Marines between the Navy and the Army.

Check this link out for another example of joint command. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Expeditionary_Force

Another one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Joint_Headquarters

I tried finding something, seems like there is no concrete detail (as it is quite classified information) on how the joint commands operate.

Also the articles you mentioned just point to treaties, not procedures on how they do it.

 

[vishnugupt]

Late decision-making is not related to theatrisation. It is just a bureaucratic hurdle. In fact IAF started flying recee sorties in the first week of May itself, (for comparison, a full-fledged army offensive started in the first week of June).

Also, late involvement of IAF was due to our fcuking peacenik govt. allowing IAF operations late, that too, in limited quantity to not provoke Pakistan.

IAF started flying on 25 may. Atleast 15 days after we come to know about infiltration.
Bureaucracy has nothing to do with war. You are even differing Kargil war committee which recommended synergy.

IAF lost 2 jets & 1 helicopter to enemy fire. IAF tried its best during that time using whatever capabilities it had to offer. I don't think the talk of responsibility comes here

Yes... Talk of responsibility this there. if any of wing say No then there is nothing you can do. After Theaterisation you can not say No to theatre commander.

IAF was heavily involved in LAC conflict (still is).

Heavily involve Today, not from day one. IAF could have been used for reconnaissance from day one.

You really have no idea about operational SoP. Air platforms always retreat if in imminent danger (unlike Abhinandan, and you know what happened when we don't follow SoP).

No this not SoP when you are collecting our own injured soldiers. They run away after landing on the spot.
May be you are not aware but pilots were later punished for this cowardly act.

 

[mist_consecutive]

IAF started flying on 25 may. Atleast 15 days after we come to know about infiltration.
Bureaucracy has nothing to do with war. You are ever differing Kargil war committee which recommended synergy.

https://indiancc.mygov.in/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/mygov-999999999788577223.pdf

IAF started recee flights early May, on 21st May one of its recee flight was hit by MANPAD and landed safely, hence documented as "21st May", original operations started way earlier.

I am not differing with synergy, I am saying if politicians lack balls to use air power like 1962 and early days of Kargil war, Air Force or any joint-synergy is not to be blamed.

Yes... Talk of responsibility this there. At if any of wing say No then there is nothing you can do. After Theaterisation you can say No to theatre commander.

It doesn't work like that. IAF officers do not throw emotional tantrums at the whims of their mood.

I am not opposing theaterisation, I again repeat. I just want to understand how it may or may not hamper capabilities.

Heavily involve Today, not from day one. IAF could have bee used for reconnaissance from day one.

See, this is what I don't like about you, no offense pal. You throw uninformed comments without haste. IAF is maintaining air domination sorties since the early days of Ladakh conflict (given the seriousness of intrusion was only detected by mid-May).


A pair of Mirage-2000s patrolling above the heads of the Chinese, and check the date.

No this not SoP when you are collecting our own injured soldiers. They run away after landing on the spot.
May be you are not aware but pilots were later punished for this cowardly act.

Show me the source/article.

Transport helicopters aren't exactly equipped to tackle the enemy ground fire. They are as vulnerable as a bus (even more because if it crashes you 100% die).

There is absolutely no rule in aviation to sacrifice the platform in hostilities. First and foremost is saving the aerial platform because it can return back or call reinforcements.

 

[vishnugupt]

IAF started recee flights early May, on 21st May one of its recee flight was hit by MANPAD and landed safely, hence documented as "21st May", original operations started way earlier.

I am not differing with synergy, I am saying if politicians lack balls to use air power like 1962 and early days of Kargil war, Air Force or any joint-synergy is not to be blamed.

Yaar tumari problem kya hai??

One side you admit that there is delay even for a day. Still we call it delay. No matter it's political or social or military.

Such delay you can't afford in future. Currently IAF takes time as they are dependent on others for ground report. They analysis and make plans which take time.

It doesn't work like that. IAF officers do not throw emotional tantrums at the whims of their mood.

I am not opposing theaterisation, I again repeat. I just want to understand how it may or may not hamper capabilities.

This work. If Air headquarter say we can't operate in certain situation then you are done. Gaurding air is their mandate but helping ground force is not.

See, this is what I don't like about you, no offense pal. You throw uninformed comments without haste. IAF is maintaining air domination sorties since the early days of Ladakh conflict (given the seriousness of intrusion was only detected by mid-May).

Read my original point. I said vary Swift and full force retaliation to any aggression from start. You unnecessarily twisting my words.

Show me the source/article.

Transport helicopters aren't exactly equipped to tackle the enemy ground fire. They are as vulnerable as a bus (even more because if it crashes you 100% die).

There is absolutely no rule in aviation to sacrifice the platform in hostilities. First and foremost is saving the aerial platform because it can return back or call reinforcements.

IAF commandos ditch cop after Maoist fire

Top CRPF and Chhattisgarh police officials have questioned the conduct of six IAF personnel who left a wounded police man in a chopper after it crash landed, and chose to return safely to a camp.

www.dnaindia.com

Chhattisgarh encounter: Government wants Air Force to explain abandoned injured man, other lapses

The Ministry of Defence has asked the Indian Air Force to explain why it left behind an injured Chhattisgarh police constable and a damaged Mi-17 helicopter in the middle of the South Bastar jungles last Friday.

www.ndtv.com

They ran away from small arm fire now imagine war?
Moreover it also explain my point of responsibility. Here they didn't behaved responsible.

Hope you will not twist my words and take things objectively.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Yaar tumari problem kya hai??

One side you admit that there is delay even for a day. Still we call it delay. No matter it's political or social or military.

Such delay you can't afford in future. Currently IAF takes time as they are dependent on others for ground report. They analysis and make plans which take time.



This work. If Air headquarter say we can't operate in certain situation then you are done. Gaurding air is their mandate but helping ground force is not.



Read my original point. I said vary Swift and full force retaliation to any aggression from start. You unnecessarily twisting my words.

IAF commandos ditch cop after Maoist fire

Top CRPF and Chhattisgarh police officials have questioned the conduct of six IAF personnel who left a wounded police man in a chopper after it crash landed, and chose to return safely to a camp.

www.dnaindia.com

Chhattisgarh encounter: Government wants Air Force to explain abandoned injured man, other lapses

The Ministry of Defence has asked the Indian Air Force to explain why it left behind an injured Chhattisgarh police constable and a damaged Mi-17 helicopter in the middle of the South Bastar jungles last Friday.

www.ndtv.com

They ran away from small arm fire now imagine war?
Moreover it also explain my point of responsibility. Here they didn't behaved responsible.

Hope you will not twist my words and take things objectively.

Rehne dete hai bhai

 

[vishnugupt]

Rehne dete hai bhai

Ok, I will not counter your opinion ( no reply or quote) But could you please highlight negative side of theaterisation?

 

[mist_consecutive]

Ok, I will not counter your opinion ( no reply or quote) But could you please highlight negative side of theaterisation?

Well I am trying to understand that, if you haven’t noticed

Only thing is I am not dismissing CAS’s concern as originating from “corrupt bureaucratic mentality”, as I respect the position and its importance, hence trying to understand his point of view.

Maybe he is correct that for Indian scenario where we will have to face enemies on 3-sides at once, creating independent commands like China (Western Command, Eastern Command, etc.), or like American (Pacific Command, etc) won’t work because they face threats localised to one command at a time, if any at all.

Or maybe his concerns arise from improper proposed implementation of theatrisation for aerial domain.

 

[mokoman]

Yaar tumari problem kya hai??

One side you admit that there is delay even for a day. Still we call it delay. No matter it's political or social or military.

Such delay you can't afford in future. Currently IAF takes time as they are dependent on others for ground report. They analysis and make plans which take time.



This work. If Air headquarter say we can't operate in certain situation then you are done. Gaurding air is their mandate but helping ground force is not.



Read my original point. I said vary Swift and full force retaliation to any aggression from start. You unnecessarily twisting my words.

IAF commandos ditch cop after Maoist fire

Top CRPF and Chhattisgarh police officials have questioned the conduct of six IAF personnel who left a wounded police man in a chopper after it crash landed, and chose to return safely to a camp.

www.dnaindia.com

Chhattisgarh encounter: Government wants Air Force to explain abandoned injured man, other lapses

The Ministry of Defence has asked the Indian Air Force to explain why it left behind an injured Chhattisgarh police constable and a damaged Mi-17 helicopter in the middle of the South Bastar jungles last Friday.

www.ndtv.com

They ran away from small arm fire now imagine war?
Moreover it also explain my point of responsibility. Here they didn't behaved responsible.

Hope you will not twist my words and take things objectively.

They ran away from small arm fire now imagine war?
Moreover it also explain my point of responsibility. Here they didn't behaved responsible.

i read of US army helicopters doing same thing in iraq and afghanistan . its not 'running away' , this is just how things work .

u know US left behind a stealth helicopter back in that osama bin laden raid , that was in less hostile condition . the seals blew it up with a c4 charge .

doesnt look like incompetence or failure to me.

this article from 2021 doesnt see any value in adc . maybe things will be changed and tweaked but according to it , operational planning and entire IAF assets will come under CDS instead of IAF chief - doesnt sound too good to me.

Theatre Commander under Chief of Defence Staff is not a good idea

S Krishnaswamy writes: It will lead to under-utilisation of the Air Force’s capabilities, deny the air arm of the services flexibility in battle.

indianexpress.com

 

[vishnugupt]

i read of US army helicopters doing same thing in iraq and afghanistan . its not 'running away' , this is just how things work .

u know US left behind a stealth helicopter back in that osama bin laden raid , that was in less hostile condition . the seals blew it up with a c4 charge .

doesnt look like incompetence or failure to me.

Leaving behind your fellow "Injured" soldiers for which officers were punished (Case study) and having material loss but still fulfilled your objectives (Laden raid) are same thing to you?

No offence but I feel doomed if we have thinkers like you. Nothing more could be said beyond this.

this article from 2021 doesnt see any value in adc . maybe things will be changed and tweaked but according to it , operational planning and entire IAF assets will come under CDS instead of IAF chief - doesnt sound too good to me.

Air defence will be managed by 3 star officer of IAF but it seems you are more worried about ACM job.

I doubt if CDS will man any of command. Eventually all command will have own commander and they will report to CDS.

This is also true that theaterisation will almost dismantle present form of IAF and few Army ranks will cease to exist. (Streamline)

 

[mokoman]

Leaving behind your fellow "Injured" soldiers for which officers were punished (Case study) and having material loss but still fulfilled your objectives (Laden raid) are same thing to you?

No offence but I feel doomed if we have thinkers like you. Nothing more could be said beyond this.




Air defence will be managed by 3 star officer of IAF but it seems you are more worried about ACM job.

I doubt if CDS will man any of command. Eventually all command will have own commander and they will report to CDS.

This is also true that theaterisation will almost dismantle present form of IAF and few Army ranks will cease to exist. (Streamline)

ok i misread it , i thought the chopper hovered around , failed to pick up the policeman and crash landed.

u know , if u are gonna complain about IAF , also add the brahmos misfire too .

 

[vishnugupt]

Sapath, Kasam se ab kisi ko pareshan nhi karunga.

Aa jao. You people Must have been waiting for weekend and now after hearing my rant all threads has fell silent.

Will not respond for now. Keep discussing whatever you guys want.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

They ran away from small arm fire now imagine war?
Moreover it also explain my point of responsibility. Here they didn't behaved responsible.

i read of US army helicopters doing same thing in iraq and afghanistan . its not 'running away' , this is just how things work .

u know US left behind a stealth helicopter back in that osama bin laden raid , that was in less hostile condition . the seals blew it up with a c4 charge .

doesnt look like incompetence or failure to me.

this article from 2021 doesnt see any value in adc . maybe things will be changed and tweaked but according to it , operational planning and entire IAF assets will come under CDS instead of IAF chief - doesnt sound too good to me.

Theatre Commander under Chief of Defence Staff is not a good idea

S Krishnaswamy writes: It will lead to under-utilisation of the Air Force’s capabilities, deny the air arm of the services flexibility in battle.

indianexpress.com

CDS will not get any operational command. Period. CDS will be the Chairman of Chiefs of Staff committee and military advisor to the govt. Theater commanders will have the operational control and will take orders directly from GoI is what i suppose. Forget the Parliament, GoI and Babus letting one military officer having control over the entire military. It will not see light of the day.

 

[Blademaster]

CDS will not get any operational command. Period. CDS will be the Chairman of Chiefs of Staff committee and military advisor to the govt. Theater commanders will have the operational control and will take orders directly from GoI is what i suppose. Forget the Parliament, GoI and Babus letting one military officer having control over the entire military. It will not see light of the day.

One military officer having control over the entire military is not gonna happen under the CDS model. It is not designed that way. What is designed is that the CDS provide military advise to the GOI and Prime Minister and based on that advice, GoI and Prime Minister give orders based on sound advice to the theater commanders who will act upon those orders accordingly. The Chief of Staff for each branch will be largely concerned with training, doctrinal implementation, and acquisition of weapons and ammos and other necessary equipment in order to enable theater commanders to effectively fight wars and win.