India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Indrajit]

What the Americans can do is offer military aid so they can bribe their way into military sales. We do not have this luxury so we must compete against them on the quality and capability of our products. As for timelines, there was no immediate urgency to acquire those systems anymore than the others stuck in limbo.

Unfortunately the Rafale business will continue to cast it's dark clouds for some time. The amount of damage your former President has done is not trivial. Nor are the NGO's insinuating corruption on that deal helping. There are some intermediate consequences to all this.

 

[Armand2REP]

Unfortunately the Rafale business will continue to cast it's dark clouds for some time. The amount of damage your former President has done is not trivial. Nor are the NGO's insinuating corruption on that deal helping. There are some intermediate consequences to all this.

I doubt it, Ambani has dropped his defamation suit, the SC has cleared it and CAG says there are no irregularities. Rahul lost running against the Rafale and now a huge model of it sits outside of Cong HQ. Now the US deals must be scoured with a fine tooth comb to find the UPA corruption and to show Trump what he gets for thinking he can blackmail India.

 

[ezsasa]

I doubt it, Ambani has dropped his defamation suit, the SC has cleared it and CAG says there are no irregularities. Rahul lost running against the Rafale and now a huge model of it sits outside of Cong HQ. Now the US deals must be scoured with a fine tooth comb to find the UPA corruption and to show Trump what he gets for thinking he can blackmail India.

You are looking in the wrong direction... people who shouted about rafale scam the most are ex-eurofighter fans... not F-16 fans...

 

[Armand2REP]

You are looking in the wrong direction... people who shouted about rafale scam the most are ex-eurofighter fans... not F-16 fans...

They were the corrupt ones making deals with USA for C-17s, P-8Is and Apaches who have failed to live up to their offset obligations. It is time to take these US companies to task, especially Boeing and make them pay. India can start by talking about cancelling all 737 MAX orders, see if that changes Mr. Boeing's tune on sanctions.

 

[Indrajit]

I doubt it, Ambani has dropped his defamation suit, the SC has cleared it and CAG says there are no irregularities. Rahul lost running against the Rafale and now a huge model of it sits outside of Cong HQ. Now the US deals must be scoured with a fine tooth comb to find the UPA corruption and to show Trump what he gets for thinking he can blackmail India.

You doubt what exactly? That the comments of the former President of France has caused no damage? The supreme Court has cleared nothing, a hearing is still to be held .This is now a political issue and I doubt Mr. Modi will want to dip his hand in this pot again.

As far as irritating Trump goes, thats pretty bad advice. I dont think setting out to damage India's interest is what the government would be interested in.

Wishful thinking is not analysis.

 

[Armand2REP]

You doubt what exactly? That the comments of the former President of France has caused no damage? The supreme Court has cleared nothing, a hearing is still to be held .This is now a political issue and I doubt Mr. Modi will want to dip his hand in this pot again.

As far as irritating Trump goes, thats pretty bad advice. I dont think setting out to damage India's interest is what the government would be interested in.

Wishful thinking is not analysis.

The FORMER president of France has caused no damage. The CURRENT president of the US is causing plenty of damage by blackmailing India with sanctions if they don't cut ties with Russia. You don't seem to take the gravity of the situation that the US-Indian relationship is in peril.

 

[Indrajit]

The FORMER president of France has caused no damage. The CURRENT president of the US is causing plenty of damage by blackmailing India with sanctions if they don't cut ties with Russia. You don't seem to take the gravity of the situation that the US-Indian relationship is in peril.

I’m in doubt what the current President of the US is doing, it’s a country with whom we run a $30 billion trade surplus. Which is why I see things clearly, no place for mindless sentimentality. We can’t throw Russia under the bus and the Americans know that. They will want something in return and that will most likely be an attempt to get us to choose one of their fighters. We can live with that.

I differ with your opinion on the damage done by the former president of France, he’s done plenty. Caused my government unnecessary embarrassment and having its reputation tarnished. Unlike many here, including you, I happen to think that has serious consequences for Rafale. We’ll all know soon enough.

 

[IndianHawk]

Bringing up Germany is a good point as they have banned all component sales to SKA, as such we have eliminated them from the supply chain in all associated equipment. It is the Eurofighter deal that is grounded which has nothing to do with France. We remain fully autonomous in our capabilities and can replace anything they make. All future projects will not be subject to export restrictions unless agreed to by both countries.

As it turns out, France is far more independent than you thought and didn't succumb to US pressure, we were promised a bigger helicopter sale to Poland. We still sell Russia Catherine thermals, Domacles targeting pods, Sagem INS, Topsight and helicopter engines.

Better deal with Poland is no excuse to deny a signed contract which was already nearly complete.

It's not just eurofighter either. Next gen fighter will also be German collaboration!
And what about MBDA . If gripen with Italian radar can have meteor why was lca denied with Israeli radar?



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[IndianHawk]

I’m in doubt what the current President of the US is doing, it’s a country with whom we run a $30 billion trade surplus. Which is why I see things clearly, no place for mindless sentimentality. We can’t throw Russia under the bus and the Americans know that. They will want something in return and that will most likely be an attempt to get us to choose one of their fighters. We can live with that.

I differ with your opinion on the damage done by the former president of France, he’s done plenty. Caused my government unnecessary embarrassment and having its reputation tarnished. Unlike many here, including you, I happen to think that has serious consequences for Rafale. We’ll all know soon enough.

It's important to recognise that among all other strategic partner we have surplus with only USA and may be some with UK!

If we keep maintaining 30 billion USD surplus with USA buying 1-2 billion USD equipment per annum is no big deal. Although that equipment should be chosen carefully.
C17 and c130j offer great capabilities and have landed even in Arunachal.
P8i gives us an edge against China so does m777 at Himalayan frontier.

American equipment is very good and battle tested after all.

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[Indx TechStyle]

The ruling nationalists in the Philippines foolishly asked for independence from the US too early (1946). We should have waited 20 years more at least like Malaysia and Singapore. That 20-year period should have allowed us to have better infrastructure and a more professional civil service from the Americans. But sad to say we were then ruled by self-righteous idi0ts who claimed that "they'd rather see a Philippines run like hell by Filipinos to one run like heaven." Indeed, they run the country ever since like hell! Worse, we are now run by crazy idi0ts who bend over to China!

Most Filipinos could only now sarcastically claim that the Philippines is now a province of China.

Still, we are in this shithole because of 70 years of mismanagement, shortsightedness and corruption by Filipinos, not because of something that America did to us. Heck, even SoKor which we helped in the 1950s is now very prospherous.

Your statement just reflected your IQ level and inferiority complex.

Seriously, being Yankee ally doesn't make you prosper. You need to study, really.
There are plenty of American allies that didn't prosper.

Diversification and liberalisation of economy is a key to success and not being America's ally.
Both China & India have learnt it in 1978 & 1991 respectively.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

First of all, both Patriot and THAAD are any missile defence, SAM capability bring secondary. S400 is first a SAM & then BMD. SM6 of us is the only SAM which is could offer that could complete with s400

Second, India did not buy a weapon but the technology, at least some of the SAM technology. It is rumoured that S400 missile technology will be used by India to make its own SAM & BMD upgrades. This can't be intestines from USA.

So, when did USA have any chance of winning the bid?


I have repeatedly told you that Rafale will be made in India with Kaveri and uttam. USA only allowed assembly of f16 in India which was useless. Even if f35 was offered, without an offer to be made in India fully, it would have failed


India does not but important items from USA. The c130, p8, c17 etc are just transport planes modified. India uses its own sensors and weapons ok these systems. So, here too, usa just sells its Boeing planes and nothing more.

About Israeli weapons, India tries to get know why from Israelis and then make it in India. India, for example learnt Israeli greenpine radar and made it indigenously in BEL using that knowledge. So, even here, India knows USA's unreliability and doesn't import usa made parts in important system

You seem to harbor a notion that an A2/AD system can either take down an aircraft or a missile. This is not correct. Patriot can be used against both an invading aircraft and short range missile because both have lower altitude. THAAD is designed to intercept a moving target at a high altitude and longer range. This is why it is ideal against long range missiles that traverse through space and reenter the atmosphere, e.g. ICBMs. Think of S400 as a system which is made of Patriot and THAAD. This will make things clear.

Kaveri if it is ready will be used on LCAs not Rafale. Rafale requires bigger engine to support its very high climb rate.

 

[asianobserve]

Your statement just reflected your IQ level and inferiority complex.

Seriously, being Yankee ally doesn't make you prosper. You need to study, really.
There are plenty of American allies that didn't prosper.

Diversification and liberalisation of economy is a key to success and not being America's ally.
Both China & India have learnt it in 1978 & 1991 respectively.

I thought Indians are intelligent, now I know there is at least one outlier. You see if you only read closely my posts I had been very clear in saying that close alliance with the US is no assurance that a smaller country like us will prospher since the US, like every country including India amd ours, will always look at their national interest first and all else second. It now behooves on the smaller partner to find ways how to maximize the economic and security benefits it can get from being close to the US.

Japan, SoKor, Taiwan, Singapore, Australia, Canada, Germany (which hosts US bases postwar), Spain (same postwar), now Mexico is catching up, etc., they've all been able to maximize their economic benefits from their close association with the US. Why? Because these countries are blessed with better, more honest and far-seeing leaders (which is also a reflection of the quality of their general population).

In our case, we were on the ascent since WW2 as in fact in the 1950s we were even second to Japan in GDP. But starting with that crazy Marcos in 70's we nose dived and until now we still are trying to get back on track. Marcos corrupted the military and civil service like an African despot. We cannot really blame the US for not moving hard enough against Marcos (although it tried) back then since it was worried it might loose the Philippines at the height of the Cold War. Again, self-interest prioritization at work. But then again, who elected Marcos? The vast majority of Filipinos much like Duterte now.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I thought Indians are intelligent, now I know there is at least one outlier.

Now I become outlier? Just look at your damned post. Not supposed to be from any rational & logical person and you claim to be a military observer.

Without any real point, you've been acting as lobbyist of Uncle Sam for quite some time.

You see if you only read closely my posts I had been very clear in saying that close alliance with the US is no assurance that a smaller country like us will prospher since the US, like every country including India amd ours, will always look at their national interest first and all else second.

No you didn't. You claimed that Malaysia enriched because of being with US. S.Kor. realized it's economic growth being close to US.

Clearly, you don't know anything.

It now behooves on the smaller partner to find ways how to maximize the economic and security benefits it can get from being close to the US.

General aspects of foreign relations don't apply on colonies.

Mexico is catching up

No, they aren't.

they've all been able to maximize their economic benefots from their close association with the US.

Agreed but access to US tech was better a reason of their rise. Economic policy was their own.
There are couple of other key US allies hosting bases, having far far more important geographical locations, blessed with natural resources and failed miserably.

These countries wouldn't have been any better if they had some other ally than US or not an umbrella provider at all. So are the successful countries.

They just would've been a bit behind in sophisticated techs like semiconductors. Nevertheless, they all would have been high upper middle income economies.

Because these countries are blessed with better, more honest and far-seeing leaders (which is also a reflection of the quality of their general population).

Politicians too are humans. All leaders have love & their vision for their countries.

Case is different that some models fail while some succeed.

In our case, we were on the ascent since in the 1950s we were even second to Japan in GDP.

Let's forget that nostalgia. Neither Philippines nor Japan were fated to retain those positions in long term. Japan just could make it's lead prolonged because of boom but didn't stay.

Much more populated countries of Asia were destroyed by colonization and were under heavy crisis. Just "normalization" of their economies was sufficient to take their economies to a size much bigger than smaller ones.

But starting with that crazy Marcos in 70's we nose dived and until now we still are trying to get back on track.

You are not only one such country.

The vast majority of Filipinos much like Duterte now.

Time will tell.

 

[asianobserve]

[About Mexico] No, they aren't.

This illustrates your limited grasp of facts and the economic dynamics of countries. Perhaps because you only hear about Mexican drug cartels and illegal migrants you immediately think that Mexico is a wasteland. Well Mexico's per capita GDP is almost 8 times bigger than that of India and the Phils. That is despite the widescale corruption and gangsterism in Mexico.

And why do you think that despite all the ills plaquing Mexico it's able to maintain a much much higher per capita GDP than the very intelligent and very independent Indians? Because of its closeness, physically and economically, to the US!

Had Mexico been a little further from the US border then it would be a failed state by now. But because of its closeness to the US alone, India cannot surpass the per capita GDP of Mexico in the next 30 or even 50 years.

So now you understand the benefits you get from being close to the World's most dominant country?

And by light years I will never exchange closer foreign relations with the US for China, even if China's economy becomes bigger than that of the US.

 

[IndiaRising]

Let the chinis cry. S-400 is a force multiplier that shouldn't be abandoned at any cost.

 

[Armand2REP]

Let the chinis cry. S-400 is a force multiplier that shouldn't be abandoned at any cost.

The problem is China has the same S-400 and will know all of its weaknesses. It is likely they will share this data with their Porki allies. On the flip side, it will also allow India to test how to defeat Chinese AD.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Folks,

Please go easy on Asian Observer. However alien that may be to us, he nevertheless seems to posses a perspective which at the very least needs to be understood.

---

Asian Observer,

In order to understand the attitude of Indians, you have to understand the history of India. India as a country has a recorded history that goes back more than 6K years. For the most part of its history, it has been a very strong and prosperous country. It only fell back from its graces around 300 years ago. It is this glorious history which accounts for a mindset of Indians that may seem arrogant to others. Anyway, be nice to people and keep in mind that there are quite a few Indians who hold favorable disposition towards your ally - US. I for one genuinely wish that Philippines would return to US fold.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

If US thinks it can force India to not buy S 400 its mistaken. Trump will lose its only strategic ally with military muscle in Asia.

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[Indx TechStyle]

This illustrates your limited grasp of facts and the economic dynamics of countries.

I know very well about economic dynamics, industrial diversification (achieved with technological advancement) and law & order.

Latin America is upper middle economy. Richer than India and they are going to remain so for next 30 years at least.

That isn't even however even remotely related to our discussion. You have just showcased your low reasoning ability and you actually judge what people think while giving them arguments as per your perception while they didn't even say so.

I know where India stands in socio economic development with respect to Mexico.

Perhaps because you only hear about Mexican drug cartels and illegal migrants you immediately think that Mexico is a wasteland.

No, I'm not from that group. My PoV about any nation isn't formed by what's in media.

You said "Mexico is catching up".
I said it isn't. Mexico is trapped in middle income trap and will caught up by South & Southeast Asia while surpassed in miles by East Asia.

And why do you think that despite all the ills plaquing Mexico it's able to maintain a much much higher per capita GDP than the very intelligent and very independent Indians? Because of its closeness, physically and economically, to theQUOT

Had Mexico been a little further from the US border then it would be a failed state by now. But because of its closeness to the US alone, India cannot surpass the per capita GDP of Mexico in the next 30 or even 50 years.


So now you understand the benefits you get from being close to the World's most dominant country?

Mexico is a Latin American country and its socio economic pros cons are same as that of any Latin American country.

It's been a quite interesting thing I've been observing. Economic booms don't happen to a country but an entire region of similar people with few exceptions (like Afghanistan & North Korea).

So is their cultural sphere. Eurpe's poorest countries (who are upper middle income & lower middle income countries) have development indicators far ahead of their counterparts with same income in rest of word. Asian countries with low & lower middle income have lives much better off than Africans despite close income levels.

Similarly, states in proximity to US get benefits from its large and advanced economy. And most obviously a large & strong state would want its neighborhood to be peaceful to guarantee its internal security so that it can take care of its interests in rest of world.

So, the countries who are regionally dominant affect economy & culture of their sphere of influence greatly. Be it US in North Atlantic or Japan & China in East & Southeast Asia.

It's not US alone most obviously.

And by light years I will never exchange closer foreign relations with the US for China, even if China's economy becomes bigger than that of the US.

On the day when China trumps US as most dominant country too?

 

[asianobserve]

Folks,

Please go easy on Asian Observer. However alien that may be to us, he nevertheless seems to posses a perspective which at the very least needs to be understood.

---

Asian Observer,

In order to understand the attitude of Indians, you have to understand the history of India. India as a country has a recorded history that goes back more than 6K years. For the most part of its history, it has been a very strong and prosperous country. It only fell back from its graces around 300 years ago. It is this glorious history which accounts for a mindset of Indians that may seem arrogant to others. Anyway, be nice to people and keep in mind that there are quite a few Indians who hold favorable disposition towards your ally - US. I for one genuinely wish that Philippines would return to US fold.

That's okay. I know very well Indian pride. I know it's been thousands of years in the making. It's just a shame that oftentimes pride overpowers reason.