India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[IndianHawk]

Russia is desperate to sell. They always overhype their capabilities. Re S-400 is no exception. So allow me to restate what is known:

"The S-400 system is often said to have a 250-mile range and to be capable of intercepting a wide range of targets, from transport aircraft to fighter jets, using a set of different missiles. However, the longest-range missile in the system, the 40N6, is not yet operational and has been plagued by problems in development and testing. Currently, the S-400 system is mainly a threat to large high-value aircraft such as Airborne Warning and Control System planes at medium to high altitudes (between 10,000 and 30,000 feet), at a range of 120 to 150 miles.

In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles. Moreover, while an S-400 battery can use several search radars to find targets, it is dependent on a single engagement radar to track targets and to guide the missiles in flight. This makes the battery vulnerable to attacks targeting the engagement radar and to attacks by swarms of cruise missiles."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

So foreign policy thinks s400 can shoot down cruise missiles at 22 mile (50km) .

That's fucking impressive!

This is what happens when you rely on propaganda rag as foreign policy as source!

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[asianobserve]

So foreign policy thinks s400 can shoot down cruise missiles at 22 mile (50km) .

That's fucking impressive!

This is what happens when you rely on propaganda rag as foreign policy as source!

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Wow! What a f#cking comedy! It's not the f#cking FP magazine that conducted the f#cking analysis but the f#cking Swedish Defense Research Agency!

Read:

Drawing on expertise at the Swedish Defense Research Agency, we have published a report—“Bursting the Bubble”—that takes a closer look at Russia’s A2/AD capabilities in the Baltic Sea Region.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

 

[IndianHawk]

Wow! What a f#cking comedy! It's not the f#cking FP magazine that conducted the f#cking analysis but the f#cking Swedish Defense Research Agency! [emoji23]

Read:


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

So you agree it can shoot down cruise missile at 50 km. And if it can do so it can shoot much bigger fighter jet f16 , j11 easily at 100-150km and AWACS at 300km .

I'd say it's fucking impressive.

You don't see what they did there did you?
They wanted to state that s400 can shoot fighter jets at only 22 miles. But this is a blatant lie so as to mix it with truth and to preserve their negligible credibility they used the phrase fighter jet and cruise missile and yet only give range against cruise missile.

Don't be so blind for obvious propaganda.
Swedish defense think tank also believe that stealth don't exist and gripen is sixth gen which can shoot down anything flying . Go figure.




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[asianobserve]

So you agree it can shoot down cruise missile at 50 km. And if it can do so it can shoot much bigger fighter jet f16 , j11 easily at 100-150km and AWACS at 300km .

I'd say it's fucking impressive.

You don't see what they did there did you?
They wanted to state that s400 can shoot fighter jets at only 22 miles. But this is a blatant lie so as to mix it with truth and to preserve their negligible credibility they used the phrase fighter jet and cruise missile and yet only give range against cruise missile.

Don't be so blind for obvious propaganda.
Swedish defense think tank also believe that stealth don't exist and gripen is sixth gen which can shoot down anything flying . Go figure.




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In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles.

Propaganda on a defense paper by the SDRA...if it makes you sleep at night, why the f#ck not!

 

[IndianHawk]

Something people don't understand that India is very deeply familiar with Russian weaponry after all these years. Our forces know what works and what not .

Russian are struggling in some areas but they are seconds to none in missile technology.

The proof is in the pudding. We ourselves are involved in two very high tech systems with Russia. Bramhos supersonic + upcoming bramhos hypersonics .
And also solid fuel ducted ramjet .

At the core of these projects is Russian tech and as these are successful and we know exact ranges what is then wrong to accept that Russian have better domestic systems in missile systems.

We already have akash for 25 km ,akash 1s for 35 km and akash Ng will have 50+km.
Barack is there with 70-90 km.

Why would be buy 5 Billion USD missile systems unless it gave better range and results. Why would anybody else buy it?

We are ourselves confident of development of XRSAM with 250km range. And yet we have doubt that Russia which is decade or two ahead of us doesn't have 300km+ range. Why?



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[IndianHawk]

Propaganda on a defense paper by the SDRA...if it makes you sleep at night, why the f#ck not!

You do realise foreign policy is a political propaganda rag and Sweden is anti-russia.
I'll sleep fine.

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[patriots]

India to stick to its guns, firm on Russian S-400 deal despite US pressure to back out
Washington is instead pushing New Delhi to buy its interceptors and missiles to counter the deal, while also offering up armed drones and possibly F-35 fighter jets.
SNEHESH ALEX PHILIPUpdated: 9 June, 2019 1:24 pm IST

The S 400 Triumf missile being fired. | Russian govt. release
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New Delhi: India is all set to remain firm on its deal with Russia for the S-400 Triumf air defence system, even as Washington is pushing New Delhi to buy US interceptors and missiles, while selling armed drones and possibly offering F-35 fighter jets.

According to a PTI report Saturday, the Donald Trump administration has approved the sale of armed drones to India.

Top sources in the defence establishment said India will go ahead in the acquisition of the S-400 system, which can destroy incoming hostile aircraft, missiles and even drones at ranges of up to 400 km, for which the contract was signed in October 2018.


“It is a done deed,” an official source told ThePrint.

Asked if there was the possibility of India backing out of the deal, he said that was “always possible in all contracts” but any such decision would come with “severe consequences”.

A second government source told ThePrint that there is nothing “at the moment” when asked if India will go back on the deal.

“The Russians will be annoyed,” he said. “Remember that it is not just Russian fighters and air defence system we are talking here. In many fields such as in the nuclear sector, Russians are our only source. They are playing a big role in the nuclear submarine programme also. It will also affect the oil business and relations in other areas,” he added.

India is also closely monitoring the ongoing tussle between the US and Turkey, a NATO ally, which has also demonstrated its interest in the buying the S-400. The Americans have given Turkey an ultimatum on its proposed deal for the Russian S-400 system.


India is keenly aware the US may not grant it a waiver of CAATSA (Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act) sanctions, which the Trump administration is determined to impose on countries that have defence interests with Russia.

Americans offer THAAD, F-35 jets
To sweeten its demand to abandon the Russian contract, the US offering the Terminal High Altitude Area Defence system (THAAD) along with Patriot missiles as well as F-35 stealth fighters.

However, sources in the Indian Air Force said no formal offer had been made, nor has India formally shown any interest in the aircraft, which on paper would be cheaper than the Rafale jets Delhi is buying from France.

India is currently in the process of coming out with a formal tender (request for proposal) for 114 fighter jets. Incidentally, one of the contenders is US firm Lockheed Martin, which is now offering its F-21 single engine fighter aircraft.

The firm also manufactures the F-35 stealth fighters and is the only one in the world to have a single engine aircraft as well as a fifth generation fighter

https://theprint.in/defence/india-t...-deal-despite-us-pressure-to-back-out/247760/

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles.

My understanding is that the low "effective" range has to do with radar horizon. Radar horizon applies to NATO air defence systems just as well as S-400, since its basic physics. So I don't see the problem there.

The answer to that problem is to have a network of AEW&CS and aerostat radars able to look down and tell the missiles/aircraft apart from ground clutter. Networking S-400 with the Indian radar network negates this disadvantage. And if you remember, India did ask for source code of S-400 and thus is paying more. So rest assured, Indian Air Force is well aware of what system it is purchasing.

That's nice. So China now knows the weaknesses of this overhyped S-400, which means Pakistan also knows it too.

Questions:-

1. What is the "hype" you are referring to when talking about S-400?
2. What will Pakistan do about weakness of S-400 even if they know about it? Is S-400 the only system Indian Air Defence uses? Can Pakistan simply wish away S-400 if they know its weakness? No. Pakistan will still have to use that piece of information to exploit the weakness. But India will also be aware of this weakness and will cover this weakness up with some other air defence asset. What will Pakistan do then? I'll tell you what, they will crash their own plane, have their own pilot beat up to death and then claim that the pilot and plane were Indian. That is what Pakistan will do.
   
3. What exactly is the weakness of S-400?

@asianobserve if you want India to buy THAAD, you can forget it will ever happen. If USA tries to hard-sell THAAD anymore, hamne jad dena hai US ke ek thaad-desi.
Translation: US is going to get a firm slap on its face. The sound effect of that slap will be "THAAAD".

 

[Kchontha]

India will buy s400 that's for sure, it is a defensive weapon against incoming aircrafts and cruise missiles, it applies to both the northern adversaries. Americans had scuttled cryogenic engine technology transferred from Russia in the past. Look at how india progresses in cryogenic front. This time also they are trying to scuttle with every possible means. This time india won't succumb to any pressure because this is modi 2.

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[Compersion]

PRC supplied nuclear and nuclear power plant to Pakis. Called it grand-fathered agreement.

USA apparently (by mistake whatever) gave full TOT on many things to PRC (including ability on above). Someone mentioned about France and Russia in late 1800's till world war 2. Someone mentioned about PRC and Russia now.

Mistakes happen? Perhaps we need to figure out what USA is doing in Bharat ? Perhaps it needs to be clear it is for their benefit they know it also. I am sure many Americans will remind Bharat who told Winston Churchill that India will get Independence. Perhaps many Bhartiyas will remind the USA flag and constitution and even more has its origins in this land and if they dont want declare a unilateral approach to disassociate with Bharat - they know it ... it will be their loss. There is a reason for USA and Bharat to get closer they know it. There is a reason for the role of Russia its not important for them to know it - if someone ask - no spoon feeding please.

 

[arya]

IF usa really want to sell his product then usa has to beat Russian S 400 in price . we india want better technology with cheap price .

Simple Usa has to make his price low then russia . but if they think they can arm twist then they are idot

 

[IndianHawk]

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/in...hield-over-delhi/amp_articleshow/69717946.cms

Nasam ii system is coming from USA.
It has stinger missile + gun + aim120C amraam
And 3d radar.

Aim 120c 7 is superior to paki 120c5. Now that missile will already be in India it might be integrated with lca ?

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[Jameson Emoni]

Detecting Radar coverage and cracks in SAM area is the job of satellites like EMISAT, not the plane.

Next gen warfare will have drones of size of actual fighter plane and it won't be limited in maneuvering for comfort of human body. Alternatively there are stealth CMs that can destroy S 400 before offense by fighters and bombers.

It does not really matter who detects a A2/AD platform's radar. The point is whether it is capable of fooling the elimination attacks.

As I stated earlier, unless there is a drastic shift in paradigm, A2/AD platforms will continue to have upper hands. An auto piloted multi-role fighter aircraft is a serious shift in paradigm.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

This is a superficial speculation. THAAD is not same as S400. Also, there was no competitive bidding for S400 with any other system. Several other conditions like technology sharing also factor

Similarly, Rafale was not bought just due to lack of F35. Even if F35 was offered for sale, condition of offsets would still give F35 the edge.

That is not true.

Think of S-400 as one system that consists of two sub-systems. The first sub-system is equivalent to Patriot. The second sub-system is equivalent to THAAD. So, you need to combine Patriot and THAAD to compete with S-400. In the trial, US only presented Patriot not THAAD. This is why S-400 won the tender.

Now, let us come back to multi-role fighter aircraft's original tender. This was issued when Shri AB Vajpayee administration was in its last leg. Then, Shri MM Singh administration came into power. They sat on it till they were in their last leg; towards the end of their tenure, they started making some progress with France on negotiation because Indian Air Force seriously needed replacement for its aging fighters. Then Shri N Modi administration came into power. Around this time, Obama administration in the US was on its last leg and tension between US and Russia were very high and US was very serious about developing some sort of defense ties with India. Even though Indian Air Force had selected/favored Rafale, the US government under Obama brokered a deal under which Lockheed Martin would move its F-16 factory to India. India then dropped the idea of Rafale and accepted this deal as it would have created jobs in India. Then, Trump administration came to the power and scrapped the F-16/21 deal. This resulted in India signing contract with France on Rafale. French threw in some extra goodies to seal the deal.

Even today, there is no formal offer from the US to sell THAAD or F-35 to India. On the other hand India now is contractually bound to Russia and France. Of course, you can always cancel a contract but there are consequences for that.

S-400 and Rafale purchase will not be the end of India's military purchase. There are plenty of future tenders on which US can bid, e.g., armed drones, light howtizers, etc.

 

[Armand2REP]

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/in...hield-over-delhi/amp_articleshow/69717946.cms

Nasam ii system is coming from USA.
It has stinger missile + gun + aim120C amraam
And 3d radar.

Aim 120c 7 is superior to paki 120c5. Now that missile will already be in India it might be integrated with lca ?

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AIM-120 launched from the ground is shit. AIM-9 launched from the ground is useless. That system is a joke compared to SAMP/T, VL Mica and Mistral combo.

 

[ezsasa]

S-400 and Rafale purchase will not be the end of India's military purchase. There are plenty of future tenders on which US can bid, e.g., armed drones, light howtizers, etc.

Other than drone, MH-60R, M777 what other potential confirmed procurement pipeline from the americans?

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Other than drone, MH-60R, M777 what other potential confirmed procurement pipeline from the americans?

US can always propose new ideas to India. US does not have to wait for a tender from India.

 

[ezsasa]

US can always propose new ideas to India. US does not have to wait for a tender from India.

This is one perception we fanboys have to correct ourselves on..
American Govt are not spending any money on understanding indian requirements, they haven't been doing it since Bush Jr's administration. Obama administration spent money on promoting libtard culture in india and sponsoring protests at russian nuclear plants, that's about it.There are hardly any authoritative "india experts" in US think tanks anymore, those in circulation are politically biased and are of no use to india-US relationship. Bruce Rydel was the last one whose opinions are valued, and he does not seem to be active anymore.

last genuine attempt was DTTI which failed miserably, because of the same problem i mentioned before. no one on american side are spending money to study indian requirements. and as usual american companies tried to hardsell stupid products and all the deals did not even take off.

All the sales happening from U.S are initiated by us, and not necessarily proposed by them.

Simply put India is not in U.S's area of interest for now.

 

[Armand2REP]

as usual american companies tried to hardsell stupid products and all the deals did not even take off.

Like P-8I, C-17, Apache, MH-60? Most of the Israeli stuff India is buying has US origin content, if they want to make things an issue they can destroy two supply chains. That is why I always advocate the French, it is the only independent choice.

 

[garg_bharat]

This is one perception we fanboys have to correct ourselves on..
American Govt are not spending any money on understanding indian requirements, they haven't been doing it since Bush Jr's administration. Obama administration spent money on promoting libtard culture in india and sponsoring protests at russian nuclear plants, that's about it.There are hardly any authoritative "india experts" in US think tanks anymore, those in circulation are politically biased and are of no use to india-US relationship. Bruce Rydel was the last one whose opinions are valued, and he does not seem to be active anymore.

last genuine attempt was DTTI which failed miserably, because of the same problem i mentioned before. no one on american side are spending money to study indian requirements. and as usual american companies tried to hardsell stupid products and all the deals did not even take off.

All the sales happening from U.S are initiated by us, and not necessarily proposed by them.

Simply put India is not in U.S's area of interest for now.

We should buy American products BUT we should not buy ONLY American products.

We are running many programs with Americans. In fact no Indian govt. before bought so much from America.

Our purchases from Russia have come down in comparison. But we have some very critical programs running with Russia. Russia is also a key partner in India's security architecture. We cannot ignore Russia or sanction Russia.

I think Americans need to finetune their policies by toning down opposition to Russia.