India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[IndianHawk]

I believe THAAD was not available to India at the time India submitted RFP for an A2/AD system. At that time US only offered Patriot. S-400 due to its more comprehensive range, came out as a winner against Patriot. If US had made Patriot and THAAD both available to India during the trial, I think there was a good chance that Patriot/THAAD would have emerged as a winner. I think F-35 had the similar story; it was not available to India when India submitted RFP for a multi-role fighter. US offered F-16 and F-18 only. Therefore it was an easy win for French Rafale.

THAAD is only being made available because of Indian progress on BMD program. With PAD and AAD vehicles. Recently ASAT test too demonstrated Indian anti ICBM capabilities. So USA realises that India will have BMD anyway and hence is now pushing for THAAD.

It all has to do with Modi's massive victory. As USA knows that under Modi indegenios projects will be implemented with priority. ASAT test blew usual story of delays and indecision in Indian projects.

Now usa knows Modi will repeat the same story with indian BMD and with mwf/ nlca and AMCA .

That's why usa has started offering all top tier shit from THAAD to f35 to armed drone etc .
If Congress came to power USA would be relaxed as desi products would have starved of funding and import train would run. But not anymore.

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[asianobserve]

THAAD is only being made available because of Indian progress on BMD program. With PAD and AAD vehicles. Recently ASAT test too demonstrated Indian anti ICBM capabilities. So USA realises that India will have BMD anyway and hence is now pushing for THAAD.

It all has to do with Modi's massive victory. As USA knows that under Modi indegenios projects will be implemented with priority. ASAT test blew usual story of delays and indecision in Indian projects.

Now usa knows Modi will repeat the same story with indian BMD and with mwf/ nlca and AMCA .

That's why usa has started offering all top tier shit from THAAD to f35 to armed drone etc .
If Congress came to power USA would be relaxed as desi products would have starved of funding and import train would run. But not anymore.

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Then why import over hyped S-400 if import train has now been derailed in India?

 

[IndianHawk]

Then why import over hyped S-400 if import train has now been derailed in India?

Because we have no alternative system to it. XRSAM will take time . Then we will integrate akash NG , MRSAM/ LRSAM and XRSAM to have our own s400 type system. This might take a decade or more.

Also s400 doesn't just provide cover as it's range extends well within Pakistan it also puts additional pressure on paf even when iaf is on offense. As we can shoot down paki plane whithin paki airspace. So s400 helps at a time when iaf has shortage of squadron.

And if s400 is so over hyped China wouldn't have bought it as they already have their own hq series. Neither would turkey risk loosing f35 and NATO membership over an hyped system.

It has to have some serious capabilities to have garnered export orders worth 15billion USD and more !

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[asianobserve]

Because we have no alternative system to it. XRSAM will take time . Then we will integrate akash NG , MRSAM/ LRSAM and XRSAM to have our own s400 type system. This might take a decade or more.

Also s400 doesn't just provide cover as it's range extends well within Pakistan it also puts additional pressure on paf even when iaf is on offense. As we can shoot down paki plane whithin paki airspace. So s400 helps at a time when iaf has shortage of squadron.

And if s400 is so over hyped China wouldn't have bought it as they already have their own hq series. Neither would turkey risk loosing f35 and NATO membership over an hyped system.

It has to have some serious capabilities to have garnered export orders worth 15billion USD and more !

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So you're buying a Russian S-400 that China already has 2. That's nice. So China now knows the weaknesses of this overhyped S-400, which means Pakistan also knows it too.

 

[Sanglamorre]

So you're buying a Russian S-400 that China already has 2. That's nice. So China now knows the weaknesses of this overhyped S-400, which means Pakistan also knows it too.

There's no alternative to S400 at this time. Till India develops own tech like this, S400 is a stopgap.

Besides, Indian S400 will be integrated with a number of indigenous and some foreign systems the Chn-Pak axis are unaware of. Think about it, it's just like the Rafales. Indian Rafales are much different than other ones.

 

[Vijyes]

Then why import over hyped S-400 if import train has now been derailed in India?

The deals India is making involve some Technology transfer or some amount of reverse engineering opportunity for further development of Indian BMD & SAM.

Merely S400 as an import is not correct. It is an opportunity to gain strategic Technology. This is also why India doesn't want any alternative like THAAD as USA doesn't allow India to gain from it and keeps unnecessary checks and inspection to prevent any attempt to reverse engineering

 

[Illusive]

So you're buying a Russian S-400 that China already has 2. That's nice. So China now knows the weaknesses of this overhyped S-400, which means Pakistan also knows it too.

As they would say in India "halwa hai kya" rough translated to "piece of cake", you make it sound so simplistic. I mean china would provide information of weakness of s400 to pakistan which in turn could make it's own vulnerable? And doesn't it work both ways or just conveniently against India? By that logic India should know all the weakness of f16 because we work so close with Israel eh.

 

[IndianHawk]

So you're buying a Russian S-400 that China already has 2. That's nice. So China now knows the weaknesses of this overhyped S-400, which means Pakistan also knows it too.

What is weakness? Are you sure same missile are being exported to India as China? In same ratio?

And even if Pakistan knows exact range of missiles it doesn't change anything. Maybe effective range is not 400 km but only 300 km, so what it's still more than anything India has now and it stills covers Pakistan aerospace from within India.

Now before you say that Paki will know radiation frequency etc. Pay attention
1) emissions / frequency parameters could be very different for Indian Vs Chinese version.
2) paki plane will still need very advanced jamming systems which China doesn't have and are too expensive for Pakistan to buy from anywhere else. Even that still leaves paf vulnerable in Thier own home.

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[IndianHawk]

As they would say in India "halwa hai kya" rough translated to "piece of cake", you make it sound so simplistic. I mean china would provide information of weakness of s400 to pakistan which in turn could make it's own vulnerable? And doesn't it work both ways or just conveniently against India? By that logic India should know all the weakness of f16 because we work so close with Israel eh.

Very true . If China leaks info to Pakistan it will reach USA . That means it will reach Japan / South Korea / Taiwan etc.

Also as has been practice before Russian equipment for India has always been different and better than Chinese equipment. As Russian don't want to lose Indian market they are already being pushed out of Chinese market!

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[Vijyes]

What is weakness? Are you sure same missile are being exported to India as China? In same ratio?

And even if Pakistan knows exact range of missiles it doesn't change anything. Maybe effective range is not 400 km but only 300 km, so what it's still more than anything India has now and it stills covers Pakistan aerospace from within India.

Now before you say that Paki will know radiation frequency etc. Pay attention
1) emissions / frequency parameters could be very different for Indian Vs Chinese version.
2) paki plane will still need very advanced jamming systems which China doesn't have and are too expensive for Pakistan to buy from anywhere else. Even that still leaves paf vulnerable in Thier own home.

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Russia is very confident that none can jam or block S400. Russia has told that it will sell S400 to Canada if it asks for it. So, Russia is throwing a challenge to anyone to do whatever they want to S400 and yet nothing can be decoded.

Also, looking as S400 as some magic weapons is incorrect. No matter what, S400 is an imported system. So, it can never be a potent system to defend India due to limited quantity. Only justification for any imported item is - emergency need or Technology acquisition. Since India has no emergency for S400, the only explanation is about Technology acquisition. So, S400 must be viewed as an opportunity to acquire new technology, not as a weapon to defend India on its own

 

[Shashank Nayak]

So you're buying a Russian S-400 that China already has 2. That's nice. So China now knows the weaknesses of this overhyped S-400, which means Pakistan also knows it too.

India would also be able to know the S-400's weaknesses, and plan around it, in case of a conflict against China...

 

[IndianHawk]

Russia is very confident that none can jam or block S400. Russia has told that it will sell S400 to Canada if it asks for it. So, Russia is throwing a challenge to anyone to do whatever they want to S400 and yet nothing can be decoded.

Also, looking as S400 as some magic weapons is incorrect. No matter what, S400 is an imported system. So, it can never be a potent system to defend India due to limited quantity. Only justification for any imported item is - emergency need or Technology acquisition. Since India has no emergency for S400, the only explanation is about Technology acquisition. So, S400 must be viewed as an opportunity to acquire new technology, not as a weapon to defend India on its own

Exactly. There is no problem in importing technology that we don't have . In fact it's a strength to be able to get capable niche systems from friendly nations.

The problem is we are importing bread and butter from rifle to tanks to artillery. That must be stopped. And that's where the outrage should be. We should stop importing T90 !

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[Vijyes]

Exactly. There is no problem in importing technology that we don't have . In fact it's a strength to be able to get capable niche systems from friendly nations.

The problem is we are importing bread and butter from rifle to tanks to artillery. That must be stopped. And that's where the outrage should be. We should stop importing T90 !

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We have indigenised T90 tanks. It is 90% indigenous now. All rifles except for 50BMG & .338 caliber are made in India. We have significant indigenisation in low technology items. The imports are only as strategic partnership to create private industry. That is not a weakness.

Moreover, S400 is not simply importing technology but acquiring technology. So DRDO will be able to get some ideas and technology for making missiles and seekers for it's BMD like PDV and long range SAM

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

A2/AD weapons are asymmetric response to a sophisticated offense. Asymmetric weapon's design relies on fundamental vulnerabilities of a complicated weapon system. An aircraft on a strike mission in an enemy territory is vulnerable to detection and elimination. It mitigates these threats by various BVR techniques that can jam detection radars and if needed seek them out for destruction. As a last resort, among other things, the invading aircraft also uses specialized maneuvers and deflection tools to escape AAM or SAM missile attack. The ever increasing velocity of modern SAMs have made it very difficult for invading aircraft so current generation strike aircraft heavly rely on stealth. However with the use of multiple radars that can randomly shift the intensity of emitted radiation, it becomes very difficult for invading aircraft to seek and destroy them before getting hit by one of the high speed SAM missiles.

Unless there is some drastic shift in paradigm, I personally think A2/AD platforms will continue to have upper hand for considerable time to come. This does not mean we should not build or acquire aircraft with stealth capabilities.

Detecting Radar coverage and cracks in SAM area is the job of satellites like EMISAT, not the plane.

Next gen warfare will have drones of size of actual fighter plane and it won't be limited in maneuvering for comfort of human body. Alternatively there are stealth CMs that can destroy S 400 before offense by fighters and bombers.

 

[asianobserve]

Russia is very confident that none can jam or block S400. Russia has told that it will sell S400 to Canada if it asks for it. So, Russia is throwing a challenge to anyone to do whatever they want to S400 and yet nothing can be decoded.

Also, looking as S400 as some magic weapons is incorrect. No matter what, S400 is an imported system. So, it can never be a potent system to defend India due to limited quantity. Only justification for any imported item is - emergency need or Technology acquisition. Since India has no emergency for S400, the only explanation is about Technology acquisition. So, S400 must be viewed as an opportunity to acquire new technology, not as a weapon to defend India on its own

Russia is desperate to sell. They always overhype their capabilities. Re S-400 is no exception. So allow me to restate what is known:

"The S-400 system is often said to have a 250-mile range and to be capable of intercepting a wide range of targets, from transport aircraft to fighter jets, using a set of different missiles. However, the longest-range missile in the system, the 40N6, is not yet operational and has been plagued by problems in development and testing. Currently, the S-400 system is mainly a threat to large high-value aircraft such as Airborne Warning and Control System planes at medium to high altitudes (between 10,000 and 30,000 feet), at a range of 120 to 150 miles.

In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles. Moreover, while an S-400 battery can use several search radars to find targets, it is dependent on a single engagement radar to track targets and to guide the missiles in flight. This makes the battery vulnerable to attacks targeting the engagement radar and to attacks by swarms of cruise missiles."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

 

[asianobserve]

In the meantime...

Russia looking for replacement for “troubled” Pantsir air defense system
https://defence-blog.com/army/russi...-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html

 

[asianobserve]

Detecting Radar coverage and cracks in SAM area is the job of satellites like EMISAT, not the plane.

Next gen warfare will have drones of size of actual fighter plane and it won't be limited in maneuvering for comfort of human body. Alternatively there are stealth CMs that can destroy S 400 before offense by fighters and bombers.

Not to mention electronic warfare against key S-400 components like its radar, which by now US and Israeli militaries are so well aware of due to their ops in Syria.

 

[asianobserve]

Beware of Pantsir!

Currently, attempts are being made to develop for Russian Air Force new advanced version, called the Pantsir-SM, with latest electronics, radar, and new missiles. A new project is being funded by selling the existing version of “troubled” air defense systems abroad at a low price.

https://defence-blog.com/army/russi...-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html

 

[Vijyes]

Russia is desperate to sell. They always overhype their capabilities. Re S-400 is no exception. So allow me to restate what is known:

"The S-400 system is often said to have a 250-mile range and to be capable of intercepting a wide range of targets, from transport aircraft to fighter jets, using a set of different missiles. However, the longest-range missile in the system, the 40N6, is not yet operational and has been plagued by problems in development and testing. Currently, the S-400 system is mainly a threat to large high-value aircraft such as Airborne Warning and Control System planes at medium to high altitudes (between 10,000 and 30,000 feet), at a range of 120 to 150 miles.

In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles. Moreover, while an S-400 battery can use several search radars to find targets, it is dependent on a single engagement radar to track targets and to guide the missiles in flight. This makes the battery vulnerable to attacks targeting the engagement radar and to attacks by swarms of cruise missiles."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

Another propaganda?

There is no meaning in stating that Russia is desperate to sell. Russia has a net current account surplus and is a net creditor in international economy. Russia has no desperation for money as its oil sales and gas sales bring most of the money it needs.

S400 never had 400km range against fighter jets as jets can detect SAM being fired and flee if distance is too large. So,to attack a fighter jet, the distance must be less than 150km so that the jet is not able to escape. The 300-400km range is only for heavy planes like AEWACS. The range of 30-49km against fighter jet is simply an anti-Russian propaganda.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

We have indigenised T90 tanks. It is 90% indigenous now. All rifles except for 50BMG & .338 caliber are made in India. We have significant indigenisation in low technology items. The imports are only as strategic partnership to create private industry. That is not a weakness.

Moreover, S400 is not simply importing technology but acquiring technology. So DRDO will be able to get some ideas and technology for making missiles and seekers for it's BMD like PDV and long range SAM

True.. like we reverse engineered and improved upon the Greenpine radar... and now these indigenous radars are the foundation for our bmd