India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[ezsasa]

Like P-8I, C-17, Apache, MH-60? Most of the Israeli stuff India is buying has US origin content, if they want to make things an issue they can destroy two supply chains. That is why I always advocate the French, it is the only independent choice.

DTTI was focussed on RQ-11 mini uav, and some cloth for combat uniforms etc..

The ones you are mentioning are indian requirements which existed for a long time.

One the U.S origin supply chain part, highly unlikely that U.S will disrupt in any foreseeable future.

Coming to french MIC... what are the french alternatives for C-130, C-17, P-8i, APACHE, MH-60R, M777, Predator drone, Beretta M98B & S400?

 

[ezsasa]

We should buy American products BUT we should not buy ONLY American products.

We are running many programs with Americans. In fact no Indian govt. before bought so much from America.

Our purchases from Russia have come down in comparison. But we have some very critical programs running with Russia. Russia is also a key partner in India's security architecture. We cannot ignore Russia or sanction Russia.

I think Americans need to finetune their policies by toning down opposition to Russia.

The ripples created by Trump election in american politics are not going to die down anytime soon, only a war which both democrats and republicans can agree on can unite U.S.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

This is one perception we fanboys have to correct ourselves on..
American Govt are not spending any money on understanding indian requirements, they haven't been doing it since Bush Jr's administration. Obama administration spent money on promoting libtard culture in india and sponsoring protests at russian nuclear plants, that's about it.There are hardly any authoritative "india experts" in US think tanks anymore, those in circulation are politically biased and are of no use to india-US relationship. Bruce Rydel was the last one whose opinions are valued, and he does not seem to be active anymore.

last genuine attempt was DTTI which failed miserably, because of the same problem i mentioned before. no one on american side are spending money to study indian requirements. and as usual american companies tried to hardsell stupid products and all the deals did not even take off.

All the sales happening from U.S are initiated by us, and not necessarily proposed by them.

Simply put India is not in U.S's area of interest for now.

India and US have government to government military sales program. It will make a lot of sense for US to setup a team of consultants who can study Indian defense requirements and then make sales proposals based on that. This will prevent the type of friction we are seeing between India and US. As a matter of fact, it does not have to be limited to military sales. India and US can work on large scale civil engineering projects as well; this will be beneficial for both countries. The opportunity for India and US to work together is endless.

 

[Vijyes]

Think of S-400 as one system that consists of two sub-systems. The first sub-system is equivalent to Patriot. The second sub-system is equivalent to THAAD. So, you need to combine Patriot and THAAD to compete with S-400. In the trial, US only presented Patriot not THAAD. This is why S-400 won the tender.

First of all, both Patriot and THAAD are any missile defence, SAM capability bring secondary. S400 is first a SAM & then BMD. SM6 of us is the only SAM which is could offer that could complete with s400

Second, India did not buy a weapon but the technology, at least some of the SAM technology. It is rumoured that S400 missile technology will be used by India to make its own SAM & BMD upgrades. This can't be intestines from USA.

So, when did USA have any chance of winning the bid?

Now, let us come back to multi-role fighter aircraft's original tender. This was issued when Shri AB Vajpayee administration was in its last leg. Then, Shri MM Singh administration came into power. They sat on it till they were in their last leg; towards the end of their tenure, they started making some progress with France on negotiation because Indian Air Force seriously needed replacement for its aging fighters. Then Shri N Modi administration came into power. Around this time, Obama administration in the US was on its last leg and tension between US and Russia were very high and US was very serious about developing some sort of defense ties with India. Even though Indian Air Force had selected/favored Rafale, the US government under Obama brokered a deal under which Lockheed Martin would move its F-16 factory to India. India then dropped the idea of Rafale and accepted this deal as it would have created jobs in India. Then, Trump administration came to the power and scrapped the F-16/21 deal. This resulted in India signing contract with France on Rafale. French threw in some extra goodies to seal the deal.

I have repeatedly told you that Rafale will be made in India with Kaveri and uttam. USA only allowed assembly of f16 in India which was useless. Even if f35 was offered, without an offer to be made in India fully, it would have failed

Like P-8I, C-17, Apache, MH-60? Most of the Israeli stuff India is buying has US origin content, if they want to make things an issue they can destroy two supply chains. That is why I always advocate the French, it is the only independent choice.

India does not but important items from USA. The c130, p8, c17 etc are just transport planes modified. India uses its own sensors and weapons ok these systems. So, here too, usa just sells its Boeing planes and nothing more.

About Israeli weapons, India tries to get know why from Israelis and then make it in India. India, for example learnt Israeli greenpine radar and made it indigenously in BEL using that knowledge. So, even here, India knows USA's unreliability and doesn't import usa made parts in important system

 

[Vijyes]

India and US have government to government military sales program. It will make a lot of sense for US to setup a team of consultants who can study Indian defense requirements and then make sales proposals based on that. This will prevent the type of friction we are seeing between India and US. As a matter of fact, it does not have to be limited to military sales. India and US can work on large scale civil engineering projects as well; this will be beneficial for both countries. The opportunity for India and US to work together is endless.

US is extremely selfish and does not allow others to benefit. So, any deals where India can benefit is low probability. USA only proposed those deals where it wins and others lose. USA regularly refuses too allow India access to high technology items without regular inspections to check India is not reverse engineering them by opening these items.

With such mindsets where India can't buy us items but only lease then is not really a situation where India can win. If India but an item, it must be allowed unrestricted access to it. Else it is unacceptable

 

[asianobserve]

US is extremely selfish and does not allow others to benefit. So, any deals where India can benefit is low probability. USA only proposed those deals where it wins and others lose. USA regularly refuses too allow India access to high technology items without regular inspections to check India is not reverse engineering them by opening these items.

With such mindsets where India can't buy us items but only lease then is not really a situation where India can win. If India but an item, it must be allowed unrestricted access to it. Else it is unacceptable

Look at China and how dirth poor they were under socialist brotherhood era with USSR? Now look at them after Deng made the strategic decision to open up to the US.

Then look at how postwar Japan turbo charged its economic miracle under US umbrella.

In India too, look at your economy during the foolish and make-believe "non-alignment" (actually more like USSR infatuation) era. And look at the difference now after you opened up to the US.

In fact, the whole Asia has not seen so much economic growth as post WW2 than under pax Americana.

But the bottomline will always be, countries will prioritize their own interests and all else are secondary. So don't tell me India prioritizes other countries' interests than its own? But the American self-interest has produced the most benefits to other countries in the second part of the 20th century until now.

 

[asianobserve]

Tell me, has anyone become rich by aligning with Russia? --- I know! The corrupt leaders of the poor countries that chose to be under Russia.

 

[rone]

In my opinion we have to go for thaad becoz China already have s400 which means soon they received in China they started fuzzing and try to reverse engineer it soon or later a s400 copy with some hq-xx designation will be availabil for Pakistan what we need effective ABD system with our on indogionous system plus thaad it will assure a safety umbrella more over it's senaors and radar's unparell currently in world ,yes us is selfish and they have their own interests but a growing china always a problem for them this will help us to get all high tech weapon technology in India and keep a edge over China, buying what already it enemy's have won't make senses

 

[Armand2REP]

DTTI was focussed on RQ-11 mini uav, and some cloth for combat uniforms etc..

The ones you are mentioning are indian requirements which existed for a long time.

One the U.S origin supply chain part, highly unlikely that U.S will disrupt in any foreseeable future.

Coming to french MIC... what are the french alternatives for C-130, C-17, P-8i, APACHE, MH-60R, M777, Predator drone & S400?

A400M, A320neo MPA, Tiger HAD, Caracal, Trajan 155mm, Patroller UCAV, SAMP/T... there are French alternatives for just about anything. Some are better, some are not, but they are independent of the US.

 

[Armand2REP]

India does not but important items from USA. The c130, p8, c17 etc are just transport planes modified. India uses its own sensors and weapons ok these systems. So, here too, usa just sells its Boeing planes and nothing more.

About Israeli weapons, India tries to get know why from Israelis and then make it in India. India, for example learnt Israeli greenpine radar and made it indigenously in BEL using that knowledge. So, even here, India knows USA's unreliability and doesn't import usa made parts in important system

Making things under license doesn't make it sanction proof. They certainly didn't give ToT for the T/R modules in the Greenpine. All of the Israeli AESA modules are imported from the US. Your next line will be you make your own T/R modules, but none of them are compatible with Israeli radars.

Transport and logistics is the life blood of any military, if they sanction that in the middle of a war you are going to feel it.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

India and US have government to government military sales program. It will make a lot of sense for US to setup a team of consultants who can study Indian defense requirements and then make sales proposals based on that. This will prevent the type of friction we are seeing between India and US. As a matter of fact, it does not have to be limited to military sales. India and US can work on large scale civil engineering projects as well; this will be beneficial for both countries. The opportunity for India and US to work together is endless.

There is no point. The only cooperation with US means is to halt your own projects & interests and handover your market to American companies.

Finally, the self proclaimed neural Filipino is openly lobbying for his allies without actual reasoning. Openly in his flavor.

Tell me, has anyone become rich by aligning with Russia? --- I know! The corrupt leaders of the poor countries that chose to be under Russia.

How about Philippines itself?

 

[asianobserve]

There is no point. The only cooperation with US means is to halt your own projects & interests and handover your market to American companies.

Finally, the self proclaimed neural Filipino is openly lobbying for his allies without actual reasoning. Openly in his flavor.

How about Philippines itself?

The ruling nationalists in the Philippines foolishly asked for independence from the US too early (1946). We should have waited 20 years more at least like Malaysia and Singapore. That 20-year period should have allowed us to have better infrastructure and a more professional civil service from the Americans. But sad to say we were then ruled by self-righteous idi0ts who claimed that "they'd rather see a Philippines run like hell by Filipinos to one run like heaven." Indeed, they run the country ever since like hell! Worse, we are now run by crazy idi0ts who bend over to China!

Most Filipinos could only now sarcastically claim that the Philippines is now a province of China.

Still, we are in this shithole because of 70 years of mismanagement, shortsightedness and corruption by Filipinos, not because of something that America did to us. Heck, even SoKor which we helped in the 1950s is now very prospherous.

 

[ezsasa]

A400M, A320neo MPA, Tiger HAD, Caracal, Trajan 155mm, Patroller UCAV, SAMP/T... there are French alternatives for just about anything. Some are better, some are not, but they are independent of the US.

Difference between French MIC and American MIC is that the Americans can bull doze thru deals if they want to...

As far as I know American deals are the fastest interms of timelines from negotiations to delivery. Apache and chinook are good examples.

As far as India is concerned, logic is simple French can have the deals if they can compete with Americans and Russians. That’s about it.

 

[IndianHawk]

Difference between French MIC and American MIC is that the Americans can bull doze thru deals if they want to...

As far as I know American deals are the fastest interms of timelines from negotiations to delivery. Apache and chinook are good examples.

As far as India is concerned, logic is simple French can have the deals if they can compete with Americans and Russians. That’s about it.

A huge problem is French MIC is now integrating to European mic which creates huge problems for dealing with multiple countries. Specially morally uptight Germany.

And French are not so independent after all. They succumbed to USA pressure and denied Russia mistral despite having contract.

If India captures pok forcefully is their any guarantee of French not bowing to USA.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[ezsasa]

A huge problem is French MIC is now integrating to European mic which creates huge problems for dealing with multiple countries. Specially morally uptight Germany.

And French are not so independent after all. They succumbed to USA pressure and denied Russia mistral despite having contract.

If India captures pok forcefully is their any guarantee of French not bowing to USA.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

Well said.............................

 

[Armand2REP]

A huge problem is French MIC is now integrating to European mic which creates huge problems for dealing with multiple countries. Specially morally uptight Germany.

And French are not so independent after all. They succumbed to USA pressure and denied Russia mistral despite having contract.

If India captures pok forcefully is their any guarantee of French not bowing to USA.

Bringing up Germany is a good point as they have banned all component sales to SKA, as such we have eliminated them from the supply chain in all associated equipment. It is the Eurofighter deal that is grounded which has nothing to do with France. We remain fully autonomous in our capabilities and can replace anything they make. All future projects will not be subject to export restrictions unless agreed to by both countries.

As it turns out, France is far more independent than you thought and didn't succumb to US pressure, we were promised a bigger helicopter sale to Poland. We still sell Russia Catherine thermals, Domacles targeting pods, Sagem INS, Topsight and helicopter engines.

 

[Armand2REP]

Difference between French MIC and American MIC is that the Americans can bull doze thru deals if they want to...

As far as I know American deals are the fastest interms of timelines from negotiations to delivery. Apache and chinook are good examples.

As far as India is concerned, logic is simple French can have the deals if they can compete with Americans and Russians. That’s about it.

What the Americans can do is offer military aid so they can bribe their way into military sales. We do not have this luxury so we must compete against them on the quality and capability of our products. As for timelines, there was no immediate urgency to acquire those systems anymore than the others stuck in limbo.

 

[ezsasa]

What the Americans can do is offer military aid so they can bribe their way into military sales. We do not have this luxury so we must compete against them on the quality and capability of our products. As for timelines, there was no immediate urgency to acquire those systems anymore than the others stuck in limbo.

Is the U.S giving military aid to India? I think not...

 

[Indrajit]

There's no point in assuming anyone is better than the other , no one is running a charity. Thet have their interests and we have ours. The russians give us things that no one else will, including the French. The Israelis give us some cutting edge stuff. We have to buy from the Americans because we are running a $30 billion surplus on trade with them. None of the others offer us that huge a market. As the EAM said, we will always choose "our side" when asked to choose sides.

 

[Armand2REP]

Is the U.S giving military aid to India? I think not...

The CAG has found several irregularities in all of the UPA acquisitions from the US but everyone turns a blind eye.