India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Indrajit]

It's just a shame that oftentimes pride overpowers reason.

Always my friend, always. Pride is visceral, reason requires a cool head.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

That's okay. I know very well Indian pride. I know it's been thousands of years in the making. It's just a shame that oftentimes pride overpowers reason.

We have been watching. Here, you have kept yourself away from reasoning because of your inferiority complex.

If we have pride and boast about aspirations of our nation, we have more than enough reasons to assert WHY WE ARE RIGHT.
Decline of US with respect to East is fated to happen. US can only retard it, not stop or reverse it.

Whatever we say in pride is justified because we have size and necessary shape for re emergence.

 

[Sanglamorre]

I'm not trying to be nasty but Philippines confuses me. Little trace of their original culture and religion remains after being christianised en masse, most of the people even have Portuguese-Spanish surnames rather than native. From then, they somehow have the grandeur of not only closely aligning but almost becoming a vassal state of USA, and now under DU30, China.

Most of the Pinoys I see, the only Pinoy thing I see in them is Tagalog.

Phillippines has a crisis of identity after being forced to throw away the unique identity it had. But hobnobbing with the USA isn't the way to build one. Look at Japan. The fast food chains, Hollywood would scrub any native identity faster than a Native American dying of pox blankets.

 

[ezsasa]

I'm not trying to be nasty but Philippines confuses me. Little trace of their original culture and religion remains after being christianised en masse, most of the people even have Portuguese-Spanish surnames rather than native. From then, they somehow have the grandeur of not only closely aligning but almost becoming a vassal state of USA, and now under DU30, China.

Most of the Pinoys I see, the only Pinoy thing I see in them is Tagalog.

Phillippines has a crisis of identity after being forced to throw away the unique identity it had. But hobnobbing with the USA isn't the way to build one. Look at Japan. The fast food chains, Hollywood would scrub any native identity faster than a Native American dying of pox blankets.

Wrong thread........................

 

[asianobserve]

We have been watching. Here, you have kept yourself away from reasoning because of your inferiority complex.

If we have pride and boast about aspirations of our nation, we have more than enough reasons to assert WHY WE ARE RIGHT.
Decline of US with respect to East is fated to happen. US can only retard it, not stop or reverse it.

Whatever we say in pride is justified because we have size and necessary shape for re emergence.

Me with inferiority complex? Nice diagnosis there doc.

I'm not trying to be nasty but Philippines confuses me. Little trace of their original culture and religion remains after being christianised en masse, most of the people even have Portuguese-Spanish surnames rather than native. From then, they somehow have the grandeur of not only closely aligning but almost becoming a vassal state of USA, and now under DU30, China.

Most of the Pinoys I see, the only Pinoy thing I see in them is Tagalog.

Phillippines has a crisis of identity after being forced to throw away the unique identity it had. But hobnobbing with the USA isn't the way to build one. Look at Japan. The fast food chains, Hollywood would scrub any native identity faster than a Native American dying of pox blankets.

Because the Philippines was never a unified state before the Spaniards came in the 16th century. The country was a collection of different ethnic groups that had their own cultures and leaderships. These groups were often geographically divided since the Philippines is an archipelago. These groups as a result were often were at war with each other.

Being colonized forced these different groups to fuse into a single state. Only a small Muslim section in the South of the country seem out of place until now. So in a lot of ways, colonialism gave birth to the Philippines. It forced us to be country with a common culture, well, again except the Muslims.

We certainly do not have a crisis of identity. By and large we are liberals, we embraced democracy, tolerant of other cultures (in fact a lot of Indians are earning as loan sharks in the Philippines), and still optimistic. We are peace-loving but when forved we are fierce fighters. The Chinese learned it the hard way in the Korean War:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yultong
Filipino killed-12 killed versus Chinese-500+ killed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hill_Eerie
Filipino killed-25 vs. Chinese killed-1,631

 

[IndiaRising]

The problem is China has the same S-400 and will know all of its weaknesses. It is likely they will share this data with their Porki allies. On the flip side, it will also allow India to test how to defeat Chinese AD.

What weaknesses? Knowing weaknesses and being able to utilize it to your advantage are 2 different things. With S-400, we will control vast majority of paki airspace in PoK and Paki punjab. They won’t be able to hang back and fire AMRAAMs from own territory like they did on 27th feb. combine that with rafales and sukhois fitted with brahmos, pakitards are going to be browning their pants in the next 5 years

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Me with inferiority complex? Nice diagnosis there doc.

Check out the couple of your last posts. I don't even have put a little effort diagnose.

 

[asianobserve]

What weaknesses? Knowing weaknesses and being able to utilize it to your advantage are 2 different things. With S-400, we will control vast majority of paki airspace in PoK and Paki punjab. They won’t be able to hang back and fire AMRAAMs from own territory like they did on 27th feb. combine that with rafales and sukhois fitted with brahmos, pakitards are going to be browning their pants in the next 5 years

In contrast, the effective rangeagainst agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles. Moreover, while an S-400 battery can use several search radars to find targets, it is dependent on a single engagement radar to track targets and to guide the missiles in flight. This makes the battery vulnerable to attacks targeting the engagement radar and to attacks by swarms of cruise missiles.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

 

[IndiaRising]

In contrast, the effective rangeagainst agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles. Moreover, while an S-400 battery can use several search radars to find targets, it is dependent on a single engagement radar to track targets and to guide the missiles in flight. This makes the battery vulnerable to attacks targeting the engagement radar and to attacks by swarms of cruise missiles.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

pakis firing numerous cruise missiles? Let’s cross that imaginary bridge later on. Their pants get browned while firing AMRAAMs at d1 max.

 

[asianobserve]

Check out the couple of your last posts. I don't even have put a little effort diagnose.

You're conflating objectivity with inferiority complex. The first part to finding the solution is always understanding the problem. For that you need objective analysis no matter how uncomfortable or unglamorous the picture that will come out.

 

[Armand2REP]

What weaknesses? Knowing weaknesses and being able to utilize it to your advantage are 2 different things. With S-400, we will control vast majority of paki airspace in PoK and Paki punjab. They won’t be able to hang back and fire AMRAAMs from own territory like they did on 27th feb. combine that with rafales and sukhois fitted with brahmos, pakitards are going to be browning their pants in the next 5 years

What makes you say that? Not even China has received the 400km missile.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You're conflating objectivity with inferiority complex. The first part to finding the solution is always understanding the problem. For that you need objective analysis no matter how uncomfortable or unglamorous the picture that will come out.

You rather picked your perception rather than reasoning. Such kind of people are there in plenty in India too. Result when liberalism meets ill knowhow.

You said being ally to US is necessary for rise. I said economic diversification and free market economy (on right time) is. Contradict.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

What makes you say that? Not even China has received the 400km missile.

MTCR
:bounce:

.............................

 

[Armand2REP]

MTCR
:bounce:

.............................

According to a report, the missile with a purported 400-km range, the 40N6, is not yet operational and has been plagued by problems in development and testing. In its current configuration, the S-400 system should mainly be considered a threat to large high-value aircraft such as AWACS or transport aircraft at medium to high altitudes, out to a range of 200-250 km. In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little 20-35 km.

https://defence-blog.com/army/exper...ty-of-russian-s-400-anti-aircraft-system.html

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

In contrast, the effective rangeagainst agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little as 12 to 22 miles. Moreover, while an S-400 battery can use several search radars to find targets, it is dependent on a single engagement radar to track targets and to guide the missiles in flight. This makes the battery vulnerable to attacks targeting the engagement radar and to attacks by swarms of cruise missiles.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/0...en-kaliningrad-baltic-states-annexation-nato/

According to a report, the missile with a purported 400-km range, the 40N6, is not yet operational and has been plagued by problems in development and testing. In its current configuration, the S-400 system should mainly be considered a threat to large high-value aircraft such as AWACS or transport aircraft at medium to high altitudes, out to a range of 200-250 km. In contrast, the effective range against agile fighter jets and cruise missiles operating at low altitudes can be as little 20-35 km.

https://defence-blog.com/army/exper...ty-of-russian-s-400-anti-aircraft-system.html

https://www.rferl.org/a/weher-was-the-s-300-s-400-missile-defense-systems/28417014.html

Russian and Western military analysts, however, say that the system was positioned too far away from the Shayrat air base to be effective against the April 7 strike, which used cruise missiles that skim the earth at about five meters off the ground, fly at subsonic speed, and follow their own flight paths.

What is the meaning of low altitudes in the article? What i found was a CM flying at 5 meters gave miss to s400.

The article suggest 12 to 22 mile effective range when target is S400 itself. In practical Indo pak scenario, target will be not be S400 (coz it's mobile and Pak has constrained resources to real time track it) but a target protected behind S 400 which can double effective range to 24 to 44 miles given both head on and tail chase.

Also Paki won't be able to launch CM and then level off at 5meter without S400 intercepting it in prior phases.

PS: The article gave a spin to effective range as it's s400 limitation. Rather it won't directly say that CM would have to bleed that much energy that CM wouldn't be able to travel more than 12 miles.

 

[IndianHawk]

https://www.rferl.org/a/weher-was-the-s-300-s-400-missile-defense-systems/28417014.html

Russian and Western military analysts, however, say that the system was positioned too far away from the Shayrat air base to be effective against the April 7 strike, which used cruise missiles that skim the earth at about five meters off the ground, fly at subsonic speed, and follow their own flight paths.

What is the meaning of low altitudes in the article? What i found was a CM flying at 5 meters gave miss to s400.

The article suggest 12 to 22 mile effective range when target is S400 itself. In practical Indo pak scenario, target will be not be S400 (coz it's mobile and Pak has constrained resources to real time track it) but a target protected behind S 400 which can double effective range to 24 to 44 miles given both head on and tail chase.

Also Paki won't be able to launch CM and then level off at 5meter without S400 intercepting it in prior phases.

PS: The article gave a spin to effective range as it's s400 limitation. Rather it won't directly say that CM would have to bleed that much energy that CM wouldn't be able to travel more than 12 miles.

We basically brought s400 to shoot down paki fighter jet at 100+ km and paki AWACS at 300km. If it shoots cruise missile that is a bonus not a priority.

In its capability to shoot down paki fighter jets and AWACS s400 helps to cover the iaf fighter jet shortage. That is why it was bought with such urgency.

We are moving from point defense fighters ( mig21) era to area defense missile era.

So rather than having 100s of mig21 defending different point areas s400 squadron + few lca squadron can defend much larger area more effectively. This is the big change that is s400 is about. IAF knows it won't have 42 squadron before 2032. It needs something to stand in.

In the era of multirole fighter no one is Fielding specialized point defense fighters. As multirole fighter are more expensive hence s400 type system come into play. They not only defend but with long range provide offensive cover within paki aerospace. Thus it serves twin purpose already. And if it can shoot cruise missile at 22 mile (50km) then it is cherry on the top.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Jameson Emoni]

I think there is a general misconception about sophisticated radars of a modern A2/AD system. These radars form an integrated network of independent units. They turn on and off in a phased manner. When a given radar is on, it transmits the co-ordinates of the invading aircraft to a central store before switching off. Then the next radar tracks the invading aircraft and stores the co-ordinates into a central store before switching off. In this manner, radars take turns in tracking the invading aircraft. So, there is no one radar that is consistently on. This makes it difficult for the invading aircraft to destroy the radars of an A2/AD system. Once the invading aircraft comes into effective firing range, A2/AD has multiple options:

- fire a radiation seeking missile
- fire a radio linked guided missile (this method obtains invading aircraft's co-ordinates via live link to central store)

This is why it is not very easy to take out an A2/AD system.

 

[Armand2REP]

I think there is a general misconception about sophisticated radars of a modern A2/AD system. These radars form an integrated network of independent units. They turn on and off in a phased manner. When a given radar is on, it transmits the co-ordinates of the invading aircraft to a central store before switching off. Then the next radar tracks the invading aircraft and stores the co-ordinates into a central store before switching off. In this manner, radars take turns in tracking the invading aircraft. So, there is no one radar that is consistently on. This makes it difficult for the invading aircraft to destroy the radars of an A2/AD system. Once the invading aircraft comes into effective firing range, A2/AD has multiple options:

- fire a radiation seeking missile
- fire a radio linked guided missile (this method obtains invading aircraft's co-ordinates via live link to central store)

This is why it is not very easy to take out an A2/AD system.

That is not how it works. The type of telemetry Russia gets from multiple radars is for search only. It will have an AWACs transmitting its telemetry to the AD batteries who stay in passive mode until they are ready to fire. When they do, their acquisition radar will be activated and turned on for the entire mode of engagement. A2/AD is a term used for land,sea and air. What you are talking about is an IADS.

 

[Brood Father]

I have few questions.. May be already answered but if anyone can explain, it would be great
Does India have S300?
If India did buy S400 what is the need to buy American junk?
As of now how is Delhi protected against any missile attack?

 

[Armand2REP]

I have few questions.. May be already answered but if anyone can explain, it would be great
Does India have S300?
If India did buy S400 what is the need to buy American junk?
As of now how is Delhi protected against any missile attack?

No,
India has not transferred the money for S-400 yet, they were waiting for a CAATSA waiver.
Delhi has PAD and AAD layered ABM defence. This is not what S-400 is for.