India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Shashank Nayak]

No,
India has not transferred the money for S-400 yet, they were waiting for a CAATSA waiver.
Delhi has PAD and AAD layered ABM defence. This is not what S-400 is for.

Partial payments have been made according to this article..
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...craps-s-400-deal/amp_articleshow/69698536.cms

 

[IndianHawk]

Partial payments have been made according to this article..
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...craps-s-400-deal/amp_articleshow/69698536.cms

Also India Russia agreed to rupee rouble trade sometime ago. So sanctions can be sidelined.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Vijyes]

Look at China and how dirth poor they were under socialist brotherhood era with USSR? Now look at them after Deng made the strategic decision to open up to the US.

Then look at how postwar Japan turbo charged its economic miracle under US umbrella.

In India too, look at your economy during the foolish and make-believe "non-alignment" (actually more like USSR infatuation) era. And look at the difference now after you opened up to the US.

In fact, the whole Asia has not seen so much economic growth as post WW2 than under pax Americana.

But the bottomline will always be, countries will prioritize their own interests and all else are secondary. So don't tell me India prioritizes other countries' interests than its own? But the American self-interest has produced the most benefits to other countries in the second part of the 20th century until now.

Who is speaking of richness? I am only speaking of strength. Alliance with Russia has made countries strong on their own compared to alliance with USA. Economic size is meaningless unless it is aiding in strength. It is like being an obese person who geta exhausted after walking 100 metres.

Entire Chinese military might came during its alliance with USSR. China was making ICBM, nuclear submarine, satellites, nuclear bombs by 1975 itself. Similarly, Indian military Technology was also heavily aided by USSR.

Comparing countries like Japan, Germany, we can see how these countries are just rich but devoid of spine and strength. They just exist like prostitutes without any inherent importance of their own and completely reliant on USA mercy to survive.

Making things under license doesn't make it sanction proof. They certainly didn't give ToT for the T/R modules in the Greenpine. All of the Israeli AESA modules are imported from the US. Your next line will be you make your own T/R modules, but none of them are compatible with Israeli radars.

Transport and logistics is the life blood of any military, if they sanction that in the middle of a war you are going to feel it.

India does not assemble parts from Israel but directly gets know why and then makes them indigenously. So, these are not license production but made in India items itself and hence can't be sanctioned.

Transport planes like AN32 can be made in India as a stop gap measure. So, planes like c130 is not as critical. So, chances of sanctions affecting transport is low. If c130 is gone, we will make older models of planes. Since these transport planes don't fight, even older ones like an32 can do the job.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Who is speaking of richness? I am only speaking of strength. Alliance with Russia has made countries strong on their own compared to alliance with USA. Economic size is meaningless unless it is aiding in strength. It is like being an obese person who geta exhausted after walking 100 metres.

Entire Chinese military might came during its alliance with USSR. China was making ICBM, nuclear submarine, satellites, nuclear bombs by 1975 itself. Similarly, Indian military Technology was also heavily aided by USSR.

Comparing countries like Japan, Germany, we can see how these countries are just rich but devoid of spine and strength. They just exist like prostitutes without any inherent importance of their own and completely reliant on USA mercy to survive.

Interesting analysis.

I want to add my take...

That USSR didn't strengthen allied countries but rather regimes governing those countries by helping them militarily where USA strengthened allied countries by strengthening their people.

Because of this policy USA has earned lot of goodwill from average people and it produced a pro-US consensus in their allied countries beyond party lines, where USSR's foreign relationships were heavily effected by simple regime change.

A big difference in their approach.

 

[Vijyes]

You seem to harbor a notion that an A2/AD system can either take down an aircraft or a missile. This is not correct. Patriot can be used against both an invading aircraft and short range missile because both have lower altitude. THAAD is designed to intercept a moving target at a high altitude and longer range. This is why it is ideal against long range missiles that traverse through space and reenter the atmosphere, e.g. ICBMs. Think of S400 as a system which is made of Patriot and THAAD. This will make things clear.

Kaveri if it is ready will be used on LCAs not Rafale. Rafale requires bigger engine to support its very high climb rate.

Firstly, there is a difference in a way SAM & BMD missiles function. It is possible to have both capabilities in a single system but even then one has to optimise the priority. THAAD is optimised for MRBM whereas S300/S400 is primarily a SAM. Similarly, Patriot is is for SRBM. The real SAM if USA is called SM6 and is used in Navy as USA has no real land threats from any airforce. So, SM6 must be compared with S400 and not THAAD or Patriots.

BTW, Kaveri is unfit for Tejas as Tejasis needed in 123only and there are already enough F404 engines for it. Moreover, Tejas needs 90kN engine while Rafale needs 75kN ones. So, Rafale is better suited for Kaveri than Tejas.

 

[Vijyes]

Interesting analysis.

I want to add my take...

That USSR didn't strengthen allied countries but rather regimes governing those countries by helping them militarily where USA strengthened allied countries by strengthening their people.

Because of this policy USA has earned lot of goodwill from average people and it produced a pro-US consensus in their allied countries beyond party lines, where USSR's foreign relationships were heavily effected by simple regime change.

A big difference in their approach.

USSR helped countries that allied with them and appeared stable enough to not go against them at the flick of a finger. It is USA that enriches 'regimes', not USSR. USA is the main regime changer as we can see in Iraq, Syria, Venezuela even today. USSR only changed regimes in Muslim countries as USSR was anti muslim.

USA never earned any good will. It is simply that USA survived while USSR collapsed due to ethnic difference and hence USA appears to get everyone's approval. But that is not the reality.

USA doesn't have any consensus amongst any country at the mass level. It is simply that USA controls lot of resources and these countries have no other alternatives and hence have to keep quiet. The riots against USA in Korea in 1980s are a good example of how unpopular USA was. But, as of now, since USSR collapsed, there is no alternative to resource poor countries and hence they accept the limitations of choices

 

[abingdonboy]

Partial payments have been made according to this article..
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...craps-s-400-deal/amp_articleshow/69698536.cms

I don’t think so. Russia still not commenced production of Indian S400 units and no delivery date set.

India stalling inexplicably.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

I don’t think so. Russia still not commenced production of Indian S400 units and no delivery date set.

India stalling inexplicably.

Are you suggesting that India may exit from S-400 deal or maybe Modi waiting for 2020 US elections?

 

[abingdonboy]

Are you suggesting that India may exit from S-400 deal or maybe Modi waiting for 2020 US elections?

Not at all.

But pointing out facts, don’t know what the reason is but to date India has not committed to S400 deal and no firm delivery date has been set as a result.

 

[indian_blues]

Have you guys checked this out? what the f** never saw anything like this S400 is obsolete now

 

[abingdonboy]

Have you guys checked this out? what the f** never saw anything like this S400 is obsolete now

/facepalm.

No it’s not.

How many times?? S400 is NOT a BMD, it is a SAM for AIRCRAFT targets.

India will NOT use it as a BMD/CMD.

S400 isn’t outdated because hypersonic weapons are being developed but I still question the purchase. 50% of this deal value should’ve just been given to DRDO for XRSAM.

 

[Immanuel]

They should have just signed the deal for 12 regiments as planned a 2-3 years ago, such douches in our procurement, they waste years trying to buy and then few more years while watching the price go up. The S-400 could be had sanction free just 2-3 years ago. Couple of regiments would have been delivered by now.

 

[Vijyes]

Not at all.

But pointing out facts, don’t know what the reason is but to date India has not committed to S400 deal and no firm delivery date has been set as a result.

Signing the deal with putin means commitment to deal. I don't know why you say that the deal is not through

 

[akk]

Signing the deal with putin means commitment to deal. I don't know why you say that the deal is not through

I do not know what the reality is...... But given the sensitivities involved, I do not expect the payment and delivery schedules to be made public.

 

[Vijyes]

I do not know what the reality is...... But given the sensitivities involved, I do not expect the payment and delivery schedules to be made public.

That may be true. India is not paying in dollars but in Ruble and other currency. Also, the payment channel may be covert in the form if some trade item. But deal is confirmed and there should be no doubt about it

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Have you guys checked this out? what the f** never saw anything like this S400 is obsolete now

Although Russia has pretty impressive missile capabilities, I just don't understand why they fast forward videos. I mean almost every other video of missile test coming out from Russia use fast forward and frame cutting.

Sometimes Russia's propaganda mimics that of Pakistan and NoKo. One of the reason why west has such a low opinion of Russian "information".

 

[abingdonboy]

Signing the deal with putin means commitment to deal. I don't know why you say that the deal is not through

I’m just telling you facts. NO payments from India for S400 have been made and NO production of S400 for India has commenced.

I’ve heard this from someone that spoke to Russias defence export spokesperson.

India dragging its feet that is clear. Anyone got a confirmed delivery date like India has had from DAY ONE for Rafale (Sept 2019)? Nope because no firm order made.

India has effectively signed a worthless MOU.

 

[IndianHawk]

I’m just telling you facts. NO payments from India for S400 have been made and NO production of S400 for India has commenced.

I’ve heard this from someone that spoke to Russias defence export spokesperson.

India dragging its feet that is clear. Anyone got a confirmed delivery date like India has had from DAY ONE for Rafale (Sept 2019)? Nope because no firm order made.

India has effectively signed a worthless MOU.

S400 is absolutely coming. Not just govt even iaf has insisted on this several times.

I explained in a previous post that s400 also helps plug squadron shortage of IAF as it defends a large area better than point defense fighters of past era.


Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[WolfPack86]

A rare pic of 9M96E missile launch from S-400 launcher

.

The 9M96 is a family of advanced Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs) designed to engage a wide range of aerodynamic and ballistic targets in the most severe clutter and jamming environments with unprecedented effectiveness. The new missile is able to intercept targets at a maximum speed of Mach 15 (4,800-5000 m/s) and at a maximum altitude of 35,000 meters. The 9M96 missile family was developed for integration on the Russian Triumf next generation air defense system. The Russian Air Force seeks to field a 9M96 derivative designed to perform long range air-to-air engagements. The Fakel Design Bureau (MKV Fakel), a part of Almaz-Antey Concern, is responsible for the 9M96 missile family.

The 9M96 missile features an active radar homing head backed by target updates provided by the launch unit's radar system as well as an Inertial Navigation System (INS) for midcourse guidance. Its cold launch consists of the missile being ejected 30 meters above its canister and thereafter the rocket motor ignites. A Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) system based on gas flow provides an impressive maneuverability over other current anti-aircraft missiles. So far, the two existing missile variants have a maximum range varying from 40 kilometers to 120 kilometers.

The 9M96E missile variant can hit airborne targets at ranges of up to 40 kilometers and flying at 20,000 meters of altitude. Its blast fragmentation warhead weighs 24 kg and utilizes a radiofrequency fuze. Stored in its sealed canister has a service life of 15 years that can be extended. Both 9M96E and 9M96E2 missiles share many components and are similar in terms of weight and dimensions with the 9M96E being equipped with a less powerful rocket engine.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[WolfPack86]

A rare pic of 9M96E missile launch from S-400 launcher

.

The 9M96 is a family of advanced Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs) designed to engage a wide range of aerodynamic and ballistic targets in the most severe clutter and jamming environments with unprecedented effectiveness. The new missile is able to intercept targets at a maximum speed of Mach 15 (4,800-5000 m/s) and at a maximum altitude of 35,000 meters. The 9M96 missile family was developed for integration on the Russian Triumf next generation air defense system. The Russian Air Force seeks to field a 9M96 derivative designed to perform long range air-to-air engagements. The Fakel Design Bureau (MKV Fakel), a part of Almaz-Antey Concern, is responsible for the 9M96 missile family.

The 9M96 missile features an active radar homing head backed by target updates provided by the launch unit's radar system as well as an Inertial Navigation System (INS) for midcourse guidance. Its cold launch consists of the missile being ejected 30 meters above its canister and thereafter the rocket motor ignites. A Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) system based on gas flow provides an impressive maneuverability over other current anti-aircraft missiles. So far, the two existing missile variants have a maximum range varying from 40 kilometers to 120 kilometers.

The 9M96E missile variant can hit airborne targets at ranges of up to 40 kilometers and flying at 20,000 meters of altitude. Its blast fragmentation warhead weighs 24 kg and utilizes a radiofrequency fuze. Stored in its sealed canister has a service life of 15 years that can be extended. Both 9M96E and 9M96E2 missiles share many components and are similar in terms of weight and dimensions with the 9M96E being equipped with a less powerful rocket engine.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal