India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

[Kumaoni]

Need I remind you executive leaders have an entire country to run, then delegate powers and agency to respective action arms.

i don’t know why every incident is blamed On the civilian leadership not giving the military enough of a free hand, that’s a very convenient excuse for abject incompetence. Look up some of the restrictions Obama’s administration put on US troops in Afghanistan, arguably far more limiting than anything the IA has on them and should I remind you ISAF we’re never allowed to enter Pak territory where the safe heavens were for the Afghan fighters too yet those guys weren’t losing COs or their most elite troops like this regularly

Well, look at the casualty rate of the whole coalition. The largest number of casualties were the ANA, who did the most fighting. Also, I don’t think the Americans send patrols out to get ambushed and have better intel. Lastly, the Americans are allowed to use their airforce and other weaponry, while the heaviest weaponry used in an attack role in Kashmir was Thermobaric shoulder rounds

 

[abingdonboy]

I made a post the last time the Army walked into an ambush, that this is their burden to carry. It's their boys dying, they who have to face the mothers, wives and children to break the bad news, due to their own outdated tactics and jai ho mentality. If the Army is fine with losing men like this by falling into the enemy's traps, the rest of us can only shake our heads and say Om Shanti.

There is nothing a civilian can say or do that will change this organization. The Army itself has to eventually change, and if not, then the losses are their own. India will not compromise on its interest in J&K, and will always task the army to take care of the LOC and militants within the valley. Whether the Army wants to do it with minimal losses, or a whole lot of losses, is up to them.

Best post on this

JK is IA’s AOR, they decide their tactics, their ORBAT, their deployments etc etc. if they decided these numbers were a tragedy not to be repeated they would change. If they only want to chant regimental war cries at funerals and embrace the fallens’ families then they seem to be subtly admitting they are willing to accept these losses. Rarely do you see the veteran community enraged at these events, instead they are hailing the dead as Martyrs and hurling names at the Pakis.

When it came to pensions these guys were on the streets

 

[abingdonboy]

Well, look at the casualty rate of the whole coalition. The largest number of casualties were the ANA, who did the most fighting. Also, I don’t think the Americans send patrols out to get ambushed and have better intel. Lastly, the Americans are allowed to use their airforce and other weaponry, while the heaviest weaponry used in an attack role in Kashmir was Thermobaric shoulder rounds

Even ISAF infantry wouldn’t move during daylight towards the end of the Afghan conflict and most patrols would have integral ISR. These are all tactical decisions that evolved in the relatively short time that deployment occurred, the IA has had 4 decades and counting. No one is stopping them from getting ISR and NODs

 

[Kumaoni]

Even ISAF infantry wouldn’t move during daylight towards the end of the Afghan conflict and most patrols would have integral ISR. These are all tactical decisions that evolved in the relatively short time that deployment occurred, the IA has had 4 decades and counting. No one is stopping them from getting ISR and NODs

IA genrols are busy in politics.

See, I have no disagreements with what you are saying. But for me the blame is on both the leadership of the army, and this includes the commanders of NC, and the politicians for being strategic pushovers to other nations.

These jokers know that sending patrols in daylight doing search parties in open sunlight will get their men killed. They have zero will to act, India in general has zero will to act as a nation anymore.

 

[abingdonboy]

IA needs to change its tactics in 2023.

This is painfully obvious. Else more and more lessons and more and more ambushes. It’s sad because the most casualties which have happened in a single attack were in recent times and not during the peak years of militancy.

Idk why but the poor equipment and 1990s tier training is showing

I’m data driven, I don’t actually think this is the case. The safest years with the fewest security force and civilian deaths have been post 2016. I remember how regular these contacts would be were 1-2 soldiers were getting KIA for a near equal number of soldiers.

post 2016 (the Wani saga) security forces seemed to be exploiting something obtained during that period (I can only speculate what)and we’re launching far more intel driven ops and seemed to be hunting down particular cells one by one.

But in recent times the MO of the terrorists have changed and they are playing by a different rule book and making the security forces look like sitting ducks

 

[Kumaoni]

I’m data driven, I don’t actually think this is the case. The safest years with the fewest security force and civilian deaths have been post 2016. I remember how regular these contacts would be were 1-2 soldiers were getting KIA for a near equal number of soldiers.

post 2016 (the Wani saga) security forces seemed to be exploiting something obtained during that period (I can only speculate what)and we’re launching far more intel driven ops and seemed to be hunting down particular cells one by one.

But in recent times the MO of the terrorists have changed and they are playing by a different rule book and making the security forces look like sitting ducks

My bad. I meant the 2013-2019 period. The KD ratio was abysmal then. I think it was 1:2-3. A higher KD ratio was maintained throughout the mid-late 90s (barring 99 and the 2000s).

2013 was particular bad and it was almost 1:1.

Last year was one of the best years in the whole Kashmir insurgency. The army lost less than 5 men in the whole year and gunned down nearly 70-100 militants.

 

[abingdonboy]

Can you tell me Which party is sucking paper roll lolipop that says a drone with 18hours of endurance is not acceptable.

The same party that is sat on ATAGS despite foreign armies already inducting it. The same party that keeps sending LUH back to trails whilst the 1950s designed Cheetah is the main lifeline to the most forward Bases

 

[abingdonboy]

If this is the case.
The terrorists are using extremely clever tactics.
Keep calling them “rag tag insurgents” and take them unseriously. Even ISIS jihadis are too stupid to do something lien them..
View attachment 222348

This is insane if true

the first thing to be done post ambush is to push out and sweep the entire area (at the very least within small arms range) otherwise this would be the risk after every encounter/ambush

forget COIN, these are basic infantry tactics. Don’t all infantry officers have to go through ‘commando’ training at Belgum that includes small unit and insurgent tactics?

there’s no amount of equipment or government handholding that can make up for this kind of tactical incompetency

 

[nongaddarliberal]

IA genrols are busy in politics.

See, I have no disagreements with what you are saying. But for me the blame is on both the leadership of the army, and this includes the commanders of NC, and the politicians for being strategic pushovers to other nations.

These jokers know that sending patrols in daylight doing search parties in open sunlight will get their men killed. They have zero will to act, India in general has zero will to act as a nation anymore.

The rest of the country, including the politicians, will gain a will to act if they knew something is wrong in the tactics and associated gear. The Army has done a splendid job in convincing the entire country that it has "the best counter insurgency force in the world" in the form of RR, and that they are the masters of COIN tactics. Anyone questioning this is a called a bloody civilian, and told "aap apna kam dekhiye, Army ko mat sikhao". When comparisons with western infantry tactics are brought in, the response is "haha, they lost in Afghanistan".

People giving that excuse, please tell me how many casualties the IA would have faced if it invaded and occupied Afghanistan for 20 years against the Taliban. We would have easily lost 30-40k troops like the soviets did if we went to occupy Afghanistan, with the same end result mind you, compared to the total American loss of 2400 troops.

 

[Kumaoni]

This is insane if true

the first thing to be done post ambush is to push out and sweep the entire area (at the very least within small arms range) otherwise this would be the risk after every encounter/ambush

forget COIN, these are basic infantry tactics. Don’t all infantry officers have to go through ‘commando’ training at Belgum that includes small unit and insurgent tactics?

there’s no amount of equipment or government handholding that can make up for this kind of tactical incompetency

Yes, even in the IA this is a standard SOP, which makes it confusing.

 

[Waanar]

The MoD is responsible for procurements. The IA can take limited action due to the piss poor government which wants to do belly dance for Pak.

But the IA is responsible for:
1. Zero tactical innovation in last 20-30 years despite fighting an insurgency almost as big as Afghanistan and winning it (almost). I’m reading older ops from the 1970s in Nagaland, and it seems as if the Indian military used to take itself seriously and be proactive. One example below:
1.View attachment 222360View attachment 222361

In this instance we see the following:
1. Reliable intel network
2. Solid preparation
3. Surprise counter charge which caught a massive force of 40 tangos off gaurd and routed them

What could’ve been a fatal chapter in the history of the Indian army was averted by good intel and preparation.

Nowadays, how bad is the intel network that they can’t even detect a fidayeen attack of 5-6 men? Or how do they make such amateur decisions to attack a ridge based on fishy intel?

The larger the movement, the more the possibility of intel leaks. It's easy to detect a large force. The smaller the force, the harder it is. Intel isn't an infantry assault. Numbers make it easier to gather intel as various sources of leak open up for the enemy. This is why random knife attacks on Israeli checkpoints still succeed in killing a soldier or two. A guy taking instructions from some qassam brigade runt randomly stabs a guy checking papers.

I guess IA still follows the "Officer leads from the front mentality" and I get it fully but why put the Colonel ahead instead of the younger officers. Any loss is a loss too many but the older guys should take care. Their death is a sacrifice on their part and maybe they don't mind it but it serves as a morale boost for the terrorists.

Nonetheless, this is another freak accident. One or two freak accidents a year do not make or break the force. I don't really expect this to happen again.

 

[Kumaoni]

The rest of the country, including the politicians, will gain a will to act if they knew something is wrong in the tactics and associated gear. The Army has done a splendid job in convincing the entire country that it has "the best counter insurgency force in the world" in the form of RR, and that they are the masters of COIN tactics. Anyone questioning this is a called a bloody civilian, and told "aap apna kam dekhiye, Army ko mat sikhao". When comparisons with western infantry tactics are brought in, the response is "haha, they lost in Afghanistan".

People giving that excuse, please tell me how many casualties the IA would have faced if it invaded and occupied Afghanistan for 20 years against the Taliban. We would have easily lost 30-40k troops like the soviets did if we went to occupy Afghanistan, with the same end result mind you, compared to the total American loss of 2400 troops.

I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but barring Major Vivek Jacob, I haven’t heard many army officers proclaim we are so called the best on retirement.

Also, the ANA lost 60-70k troops in KIA and there were mutliple countries in Afghanistan.Yes we would take heavier casualties, water is wet, but not as many as you proclaim.

And what is this nonsense comparison? The IA is primarily a defensive force as the country itself is a defensive country.

Generals need to be held accountable yes,but this is a bad comparison no offense

 

[abingdonboy]

brigadier here asking same question.

A freaking general walking around with 0 PPE, bright ranks and gorget patches and some wonder how these losses occur.

+Remember how some tried to assure us ranks were never worn in operational areas?

sorry but the IA is making themselves look Like complete amateurs not the battle hardened outfit they proclaim themselves to be

 

[Kumaoni]

The larger the movement, the more the possibility of intel leaks. It's easy to detect a large force. The smaller the force, the harder it is. Intel isn't an infantry assault. Numbers make it easier to gather intel as various sources of leak open up for the enemy. This is why random knife attacks on Israeli checkpoints still succeed in killing a soldier or two. A guy taking instructions from some qassam brigade runt randomly stabs a guy checking papers.

I guess IA still follows the "Officer leads from the front mentality" and I get it fully but why put the Colonel ahead instead of the younger officers. Any loss is a loss too many but the older guys should take care. Their death is a sacrifice on their part and maybe they don't mind it but it serves as a morale boost for the terrorists.

Nonetheless, this is another freak accident. One or two freak accidents a year do not make or break the force. I don't really expect this to happen again.

The only sane member who can objectively analyze faults.

Another balanced and well thought out post from you. People don’t understand but smaller numbers make it waaay easier to get away. Just basic hit and run tactics.

Also, please check discord

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but barring Major Vivek Jacob, I haven’t heard many army officers proclaim we are so called the best on retirement.

Also, the ANA lost 60-70k troops in KIA and there were mutliple countries in Afghanistan.Yes we would take heavier casualties, water is wet, but not as many as you proclaim.

And what is this nonsense comparison? The IA is primarily a defensive force as the country itself is a defensive country.

Generals need to be held accountable yes,but this is a bad comparison no offense

Not a bad comparison because the topic of their loss in Afghanistan is always brought up by the other side whenever comparison with western tactics like night fighting and ISR is brought up from the sceptic side. So I'm putting that example into context.

 

[abingdonboy]

I believe the encounter happened during the day

Either way it’s irrelevant unless you’re only interested in masala drama and crocodile tears.

in a functioning leadership you cannot stop everything for low level activities, should Modi also be personally overseeing road construction and hospital admissions?

it’s so weird to see people rushing to demand noise from politicians after these incidents as if a tweet makes a difference, tactical failures happening again and again is the real concern and you’d have to go many many layers up the chain of command until you came across the first civilian

 

[Kumaoni]

Had to switch to my laptop to respond better.

Not a bad comparison because the topic of their loss in Afghanistan is always brought up by the other side whenever comparison with western tactics like night fighting and ISR is brought up from the sceptic side. So I'm putting that example into context.

The only folks who do this are blind Jai Ho ass drinkers. We should not take them seriously.

 

[abingdonboy]

The rest of the country, including the politicians, will gain a will to act if they knew something is wrong in the tactics and associated gear. The Army has done a splendid job in convincing the entire country that it has "the best counter insurgency force in the world" in the form of RR, and that they are the masters of COIN tactics. Anyone questioning this is a called a bloody civilian, and told "aap apna kam dekhiye, Army ko mat sikhao". When comparisons with western infantry tactics are brought in, the response is "haha, they lost in Afghanistan".

People giving that excuse, please tell me how many casualties the IA would have faced if it invaded and occupied Afghanistan for 20 years against the Taliban. We would have easily lost 30-40k troops like the soviets did if we went to occupy Afghanistan, with the same end result mind you, compared to the total American loss of 2400 troops.

Spot on again, it’s why the ‘Jai ho’ mentality is so insidious. There’s a fine line between morale and delusion but india has gone far down the latter.

R-day parades are seen as moments of pride but take a critical look at all of the equipment and even the contingents (bike stunts, paras jogging etc) and you’d have to question the quality of this fighting force

after these deaths the fallen are always hailed as superheroes that died on their feet fighting like lions. I have no doubt that they are all braver than any of us but the reality is most of these deaths are avoidable and they fell because of poor tactics or equipment and hence it was not the hero’s passing that they romanticise but a sad pointless tragedy

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Let it be. Om Shanti.

 

[Tactical Doge]

https://x.com/colhunnybakshi/status/1701990762282672445?s=20

IA is a joke