India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

[Kumaoni]

https://x.com/colhunnybakshi/status/1701990762282672445?s=20

Go to 14:15
This is the reality of “Indian” upper brass

 

[another_armchair]

https://x.com/colhunnybakshi/status/1701990762282672445?s=20

Who is he talking about?

Brigadier Surinder Singh?

 

[Master Chief]

https://x.com/colhunnybakshi/status/1701990762282672445?s=20

You see all those medals on post 90s Generals.. all of them counter terrorism related.. Basically medals for what is essentially glorified police action.. We must remember that Indian Army officers love doing counter terrorism..
A counter terrorism Op is essentially seen by these COs as a low risk high return opportunity for Career advancement.. since probability of getting killed is low.. And so, it's not for the first time, that CO rushes to the encounter site to be seen as leading from the front, and then get some recommendations for promotion... I guess too much of counter terrorism and zero conventional warfare has corrupted Indian Army..

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Modi Arrived in BJP HQ on Wednesday (when? I do not know). His reception was planned on 6:30 PM (https://www.etvbharat.com/english/s...-g20-summit-success/na20230913142757739739778)

This incident was ongoing since Tuesday with forces following and tracking these terrorists (whom they suspected to be a small group of terrorists). it was sometimes during afternoon of Wednesday when they went to check the location they came under heavy fire from concealed terrorists.

Timing is too close to blame Modi or anyone. Who knows when he was intimated.

BTW, this is a clear case where having a recon drone in the sky would have helped. A UACV? Much better.

If only DRDO could stop dragging their feets.

Everyone here knows what has happened with the Tapas Bh-201 program just because it falls short of the 24 hour endurance mark.
What is the guarantee the same will not happen with the UCAV program?
Also, last time I checked, the Archer UCAV can fire ATGMs, what is stopping the forces from placing an order?

 

[itsme]

Everyone here knows what has happened with the Tapas Bh-201 program just because it falls short of the 24 hour endurance mark.
What is the guarantee the same will not happen with the UCAV program?
Also, last time I checked, the Archer UCAV can fire ATGMs, what is stopping the forces from placing an order?

Don't even need something like a UCAV, a DJI M30 class drone, pair it with some FPV kamikaze or bomber drones as hunter killer teams, as a much cheaper and safer solution.

I am sure someone in the army would have already thought and proposed something on similar lines but, don't think the high command or def bureaucracy even cares even though when the tech is commercially available.

At this rate its just a matter of time the terrorists start using FPV drones in attack roles on easy less value targets just for the kills and we are going to be caught unprepared as always sadly. They already use drones for logistics and possibly surveillance.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Don't even need something like a UCAV, a DJI M30 class drone, pair it with some FPV kamikaze or bomber drones as hunter killer teams, as a much cheaper and safer solution.

I am sure someone in the army would have already thought and proposed something on similar lines but, don't think the high command or def bureaucracy even cares even though when the tech is commercially available.

At this rate its just a matter of time the terrorists start using FPV drones in attack roles on easy less value targets just for the kills and we are going to be caught unprepared as always sadly. They already use drones for logistics and possibly surveillance.

We have drones who drop nades from above and army released vids of those few months ago too it's just not being used reasons only army knows

 

[abingdonboy]

The elections wont be affected by this so the government just wouldnt care, like it didnt in poonch before. (I just fucking hope they prove me wrong)

Everything is the govt’s fault? Is the govt the ones directing each tactical operation? When does IA learn from their mistakes? How many children have to lose their fathers? This would be a scandal in any other serious country instead life is cheap to even military brass who are apparently only sticking around for their pensions

after every incident all you ever hear is platitudes, the enemy are the ones that seem to have all the momentum.

a few early losses in GWOT transformed the entire way the ISAF/NATO forces fought, how many decades has IA been in this fight and they are still losing COs to ambushes on Indian soil? Unfathomable incompetence and complacency

 

[abingdonboy]

I'm willing to bet a good amount IA genrols will just heighten numbers at the places near the encounter sight, with negligible ISR, and draw in more casualties



This has become a routine

Right, if recent history has taught anything let’s hope those hunting parties going out are prepared to be hit.

seeing that SF team patrolling in on foot in broad daylight doesn’t seem to indicate any lessons have been learned….

 

[Kumaoni]

Everything is the govt’s fault? Is the govt the ones directing each tactical operation? When does IA learn from their mistakes? How many children have to lose their fathers? This would be a scandal in any other serious country instead life is cheap to even military brass who are apparently only sticking around for their pensions

after every incident all you ever hear is platitudes, the enemy are the ones that seem to have all the momentum.

a few early losses in GWOT transformed the entire way the ISAF/NATO forces fought, how many decades has IA been in this fight and they are still losing COs to ambushes on Indian soil? Unfathomable incompetence and complacency

The MoD is responsible for procurements. The IA can take limited action due to the piss poor government which wants to do belly dance for Pak.

But the IA is responsible for:
1. Zero tactical innovation in last 20-30 years despite fighting an insurgency almost as big as Afghanistan and winning it (almost). I’m reading older ops from the 1970s in Nagaland, and it seems as if the Indian military used to take itself seriously and be proactive. One example below:
1.

In this instance we see the following:
1. Reliable intel network
2. Solid preparation
3. Surprise counter charge which caught a massive force of 40 tangos off gaurd and routed them

What could’ve been a fatal chapter in the history of the Indian army was averted by good intel and preparation.

Nowadays, how bad is the intel network that they can’t even detect a fidayeen attack of 5-6 men? Or how do they make such amateur decisions to attack a ridge based on fishy intel?

 

[abingdonboy]

There's a GALA dinner going on at BJP HQ right now hosted by Modi.

LIVE | PM Modi's Mega Show At BJP Office After G20 Success; Gala To Celebrate India's 'Global Might'

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's grand welcome and felicitation programme at the BJP HQ in Delhi to celebrate the success of G20 under India's Presidency. Indi...

www.youtube.com

That while we lost 4 soldiers and 1 canine soldier, home minister and his son were counting the money those pot-bellied bastards at BCCI made by the India-Pak match we won and were celebrating gala dinner at BJP HQ.

You’ve got to be joking.

you think these Ops are run above the level of even the corps commander? The whole government stops every time a CASO is launched?

the whole point of the separation of civil and military leadership and areas of responsibility is so there isn’t highly centralised control, what exactly is IA HQ or even NC doing? Drafting their most recent round of fantasy RFIs? If Modi has to manage even tactical level ops then what’s the point in the maybe 30 layers of command between him and a company CO?

such nonsense

 

[abingdonboy]

The MoD is responsible for procurements. The IA can take limited action due to the piss poor government which wants to do belly dance for Pak.

But the IA is responsible for:
1. Zero tactical innovation in last 20-30 years despite fighting an insurgency almost as big as Afghanistan and winning it (almost). I’m reading older ops from the 1970s in Nagaland, and it seems as if the Indian military used to take itself seriously and be proactive. One example below:
1.View attachment 222360View attachment 222361

In this instance we see the following:
1. Reliable intel network
2. Solid preparation
3. Surprise counter charge which caught a massive force of 40 tangos off gaurd and routed them

What could’ve been a fatal chapter in the history of the Indian army was averted by good intel and preparation.

Nowadays, how bad is the intel network that they can’t even detect a fidayeen attack of 5-6 men? Or how do they make such amateur decisions to attack a ridge based on fishy intel?

Piss poor government maybe or maybe they look at the state of the Indian military leadership and rightly conclude they are in no position to be taking the fight beyond India’s borders given how badly they botch up Ops on Indian soil again and again

It’s not Modi that oversaw and signed off on FINSAS or who is responsible for their training manuals. The entire JK AOR has been under the IA for decades, who is at fault for using troops as sacrificial lambs? Who has even resisted theatre commands at every step?

 

[Kumaoni]

You’ve got to be joking.

you think these Ops are run above the level of even the corps commander? The whole government stops every time a CASO is launched?

the whole point of the separation of civil and military leadership and areas of responsibility is so there isn’t highly centralised control, what exactly is IA HQ or even NC doing? Drafting their most recent round of fantasy RFIs? If Modi has to manage even tactical level ops then what’s the point in the maybe 30 layers of command between him and a company CO?

such nonsense

No one is harping on modi for mismanaging tactical ops. We are harping on modi for a) not acknowledging the dead b)wanting peace with Pak and authorizing a ceasefire c) making the forces fight with one hand behind their back.

In this case, do u really think these dogs would have guts had paras not diluted capabilities and been able to run successful covert strikes across the LoC? Or we send small 10-20 man parties to raid, ambush, and eliminate HVTs of insurgent groups, Pak army officers, and others? I remember reading somewhere that a fucking Pak brigadier could have been tragted by Paras in surgical strikes, but it wasn’t done becuz of political drama it could have caused.

 

[arkos]

For idiots in the thread who keep on cussing the LoC ceasefire.
https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/2023/09/09/unseen-beautiful-places-to-explore-in-kashmir.html
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...asefire-enters-third-year/article66583846.ece
https://www.himalmag.com/hopes-fears-line-of-control-ceasefire-india-occupied-kashmir/
https://www.awazthevoice.in/india-n...ing-into-tourist-hubs-amidst-peace-23034.html

But obviously, the people living near the LoC don't deserve peace and their lives and livelihood are worth nothing.

 

[abingdonboy]

Seems like TRF got lucky and managed to lob a grenade into a tent/vehicle with all 3 in it .

the "was leading" news seems like the usual boiler plate story given to press.

i am guess we will find out when army gives out more info or TRF release video.

How many soldiers need to die to get the IA to stop driving around in soft skinned vehicles in operational settings?

who knows what’s happened here, it will become clear in time. All I know is I’ve seen GS800s driving around in JK and the NE right in the heart of operational areas and of course they are emblazoned with all the icons indicating a high value target to the enemy. A ticking time bomb one way or another

but don’t worry these geniuses have gone and bought some civilian spec Hiluxs recently to drive their wives around in

 

[Kumaoni]

Many of these ops are botched due to the mentality of “sab kuch Accha hai, hum unko Jan se marenge”, and they underestimate the enemy. As a result, many times isolated soldiers will be attacked and dogs will celebrate a major victory.

Had the CO done proper recon, which comes with better technology, we wouldn’t be in the mess right now.

Also, about F ISNAS, it’s a 2 decade old project btw.

Piss poor government maybe or maybe they look at the state of the Indian military leadership and rightly conclude they are in no position to be taking the fight beyond India’s borders given how badly they botch up Ops on Indian soil again and again

It’s not Modi that oversaw and signed off on FINSAS or who is responsible for their training manuals. The entire JK AOR has been under the IA for decades, who is at fault for using troops as sacrificial lambs? Who has even resisted theatre commands at every step?

 

[abingdonboy]

No one is harping on modi for mismanaging tactical ops. We are harping on modi for a) not acknowledging the dead b)wanting peace with Pak and authorizing a ceasefire c) making the forces fight with one hand behind their back.

In this case, do u really think these dogs would have guts had paras not diluted capabilities and been able to run successful covert strikes across the LoC? Or we send small 10-20 man parties to raid, ambush, and eliminate HVTs of insurgent groups, Pak army officers, and others? I remember reading somewhere that a fucking Pak brigadier could have been tragted by Paras in surgical strikes, but it wasn’t done becuz of political drama it could have caused.

Even before the ceasefire these events happened.

it’s not like paras or others were hitting across the LoC and keeping these pigs out regardless.

whatever the executive leadership decides who is to blame for senior leadership being vulnerable enough to be taken out 4 decades into a COIN fight? Again and again these are TACTICAL failures, the PAFF ambushes could’ve happened 20 years ago with similar effects

 

[abingdonboy]

This is the same party which politicized the army.
The same party which has the collective IQ of 90 AND claims that only in their tenure has Indian military done significant action, a claim which is historically not only false, but also laughable.
The same party which claims no surgical strikes in nda or upa tenure ever, even though i can name at least 5 done in their time and others know many more.

Maybe tell BJP to stop talking big and for it to actually back up its words. These terrorists are coming not even through LoC anymore, but through other areas. Whose fault is that?

The only govt that’s has the balls to revoke 370 gets a LOT of credit on this subject

they then relied on the security establishment to manage the situation, maybe they gave them too much credit considering they don’t seem to have modified their SOPs significantly since 1990s. I’d almost be tempted to give the CRPF a chance at t js point, they’ve proven to be far more dynamic than the IA in the past decade and have delivered results in LWE, sure they get hit but they don’t seem to make the same massive blunders again and again and r js too with a fraction of the budget and resources the IA has gobbled up

 

[Kumaoni]

Even before the ceasefire these events happened.

it’s not like paras or others were hitting across the LoC and keeping these pigs out regardless.

whatever the executive leadership decides who is to blame for senior leadership being vulnerable enough to be taken out 4 decades into a COIN fight? Again and again these are TACTICAL failures, the PAFF ambushes could’ve happened 20 years ago with similar effects

This is largely due to the fencing of LoC.

Before the 2003 ceasefire army regular units would venture 1-5 kms into PoK and lay ambushes while paras would infiltrate even deeper and infiltrate entire Jihadi Modules and get info.

But we all know, since the insurgency has died down, and the fact that the IA has nuked its special forces capability by a good decades, they no linger have the capabilities to conduct such operations, nor is there a will power to do so.

IA is responsible for this, but do remember, the IA is given barley any opportunities to do such operations in recent times, do I need to remind you what happened 5 months before uri? Where modi was? Or do I need to remind you of his silence on pla incursions? . The entire system is a shitshow. Your politicians and your generals both are more interested their moneys and whiskey instead of modernizing it’s army.

 

[abingdonboy]

This is largely due to the fencing of LoC.

Before the 2003 ceasefire army regular units would venture 1-5 kms into PoK and lay ambushes while paras would infiltrate even deeper and infiltrate entire Jihadi Modules and get info.

But we all know, since the insurgency has died down, and the fact that the IA has nuked its special forces capability by a good decades, they no linger have the capabilities to conduct such operations, nor is there a will power to do so.

IA is responsible for this, but do remember, the IA is given barley any opportunities to do such operations in recent times, do I need to remind you what happened 5 months before uri? Where modi was? Or do I need to remind you of his silence on pla incursions? . The entire system is a shitshow. Your politicians and your generals both are more interested their moneys and whiskey instead of modernizing it’s army.

Need I remind you executive leaders have an entire country to run, then delegate powers and agency to respective action arms.

i don’t know why every incident is blamed On the civilian leadership not giving the military enough of a free hand, that’s a very convenient excuse for abject incompetence. Look up some of the restrictions Obama’s administration put on US troops in Afghanistan, arguably far more limiting than anything the IA has on them and should I remind you ISAF we’re never allowed to enter Pak territory where the safe heavens were for the Afghan fighters too yet those guys weren’t losing COs or their most elite troops like this regularly

 

[Kumaoni]

The only govt that’s has the balls to revoke 370 gets a LOT of credit on this subject

they then relied on the security establishment to manage the situation, maybe they gave them too much credit considering they don’t seem to have modified their SOPs significantly since 1990s. I’d almost be tempted to give the CRPF a chance at t js point, they’ve proven to be far more dynamic than the IA in the past decade and have delivered results in LWE, sure they get hit but they don’t seem to make the same massive blunders again and again and r js too with a fraction of the budget and resources the IA has gobbled up

Fully agreed here.

the whole reason the IA was inducted to battle the insurgency in 1990 was because the CRPF was poorly trained and under quipped to fight guerillas. Since the CRPF has gained expereince in LWE, against a larger number of hostile, who are decently trained, and attained lots of success, they’ve come a long way. The only reason they suffer ambushes is because of extremely poor intel and being backstabbed by their informers.