India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

[Smoothbore125mm]

That WOULD BE the case had the Army top leadership hadn't had their collective heads stuck in the places where nothing ever shines!! I mean what these mofos have done with arty and infantry modernization is treason of the highest order and that's putting it mildly!!


Are you certain about that figure?? Although, I would say their advantage in numbers can be mitigated with some minor innovations on IAF's part.
For one, I'd ask the DRDO to immediately start working on turning Pinaka-2 rockets into air-surface missiles like Rampage and get them into production as soon as humanly possible. I mean, it shouldn't be that big of a hurdle considering we already have the infrastructure in place to mass produce them with new facilities coming up online in the near future (Adani and Solar).

Second, develop a ground launched version of the SAAW with EO sensors. It will be many times cheaper than cruise missiles and thus can be yeeted at them in big numbers to saturate and overwhelm the air defenses of their forward air bases.

Third - build under ground facilities with hydraulic lifts for air defense radars and SAM launchers to keep them from getting knocked out by PLAAF's SEAD sorties.


Let's just be real here - those who make that claim are in a protracted stage of denial.


True but how effective those will be in the higher altitudes of the LAC is still up for debate. Plus, as the Ruskies have shown, these drones (and anything that relies on GPS) can absolutely be nullified by widescale adoption of broad spectrum jammers and that's one area where DRDO has done quite well for themselves.


For PLAN, we'd need to place over-the-horizon radars in the Andaman and Nicobar islands and litter them with anti-ship weapons. A ground launched SAAW can come in extremely handy for this task as well.

why not modify a rocket artillery/missile to carry saaw just like smart ,ruskis are already using them to launch loitering munitions in ukraine so lets say a 100-150km is covered by artillery and saaw covers 50-100km distance
about the j20 production im underestimating they are claiming 200/year since the new production plant is opened
there is nothing as a safe ground facility bruv they are all suceptible to destruction best possible thing is to shoot and scoot

as i said the threat levels are
plaf < pla < plan

if army planned effectively we would be having pla even lower than plan

 

[Blood+]

Don't forget SMART missile-torpedoes & underwater hydrophones .

Of course but afaik, SMART hasn't yet been operationalized. But yeah, it'll come in real handy whenever it becomes available.

We tend to underestimate our Navy but remember it has 2 carriers , nuclear subs & P8I armed with harpoons along with guided missile frigates/destroyers with Kalibr/Brahmos which can sink any Chinese flotilla sent over here .

I'm not underestimating our Navy at all but we simply cannot overlook the fact that PLAN has many times more VLS tubes available to them than us and they are expanding at a rate that we can not hope to even come close to in our wildest imaginations.
Therefore, it should be considered sacrosanct to look for and employ additional counter measures that will include the aforementioned components. The AN islands gives us an unique geographic advantage, and it should be exploited to its fullest potential.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Of course but afaik, SMART hasn't yet been operationalized. But yeah, it'll come in real handy whenever it becomes available.

I'm not underestimating our Navy at all but we simply cannot overlook the fact that PLAN has many times more VLS tubes available to them than us and they are expanding at a rate that we can not hope to even come close to in our wildest imaginations.
Therefore, it should be considered sacrosanct to look for and employ additional counter measures that will include the aforementioned components. The AN islands gives us an unique geographic advantage, and it should be exploited to its fullest potential.

not a very important variable
plan still has the older hhq9 air defence (a naval s 300 so you can estimate its performance isnt that good)
plus they tend to fire their asw rockets from vls so it eats space too while we use rbu

their anti shipping missiles is also on par if not worse than brahmos too but the hypersonic missile is better than brahmos (my assuption)

 

[Azaad]

Don't forget SMART missile-torpedoes & underwater hydrophones . We tend to underestimate our Navy but remember it has 2 carriers , nuclear subs & P8I armed with harpoons along with guided missile frigates/destroyers with Kalibr/Brahmos which can sink any Chinese flotilla sent over here .

The real danger from PLAN will be post 2035. CCP is expected to prosecute its campaign against Taiwan & India before that.

This is turn means PLAAF targeting the A&N island chains from Yunan flying over Myanmar. Why else do you think IN has been SO DAMN desperate to get the Rafale M? They've nothing else in the inventory to take on the J-20 & the rest of the FAs , PLAAF would throw at it.

 

[Jimih]

I just don't want Modi to rename places in Tibet, because the Thrashing of the Indian Army might be worse than in 1962, if China decides to go the attrition war way..

Don't be a glorified pussy.

It's Saturday we can understand.

 

[Blood+]

why not modify a rocket artillery/missile to carry saaw just like smart ,ruskis are already using them to launch loitering munitions in ukraine so lets say a 100-150km is covered by artillery and saaw covers 50-100km distance

You just described in detail what I was referring to. A GLSDB analog with EO sensor instead of just GPS.

about the j20 production im underestimating they are claiming 200/year since the new production plant is opened

there is nothing as a safe ground facility bruv they are all suceptible to destruction best possible thing is to shoot and scoot

The Houthis would like to differ. They are literally employing the technique I mentioned to a devastating effect.

And good luck shooting and scooting with your SAM sites. Just because they are mobile, doesn't mean you can pack up and leave in a moment's notice (unless we're talking about short range systems like Tor M1 and Pantsir but even they have been shown to be quite vulnerable to.... a lot of things really)!! It's not mobile artillery we're talking about here.
Plus, it's the Himalayas, where are you going to scoot to?? And how?? It's not as if you'll be spoilt for room to be scooting around.
But most importantly, what about the facilities that these air defense systems were defending?? Are you gonna scoot your air base or brigade headquarter as well??!! Didn't think of that, now did you??

as i said the threat levels are
plaf < pla < plan

True and I was giving you some ideas as to how we can try and mitigate their advantage.

if army planned effectively we would be having pla even lower than plan

Nothing to say there.

 

[Jimih]

We're supremely fortunate that we've got the fucking Himalays defending our entire northern border or else, we'd all be speaking Mandarin by now.

Kuch bhi!!

 

[Blood+]

not a very important variable
plan still has the older hhq9 air defence (a naval s 300 so you can estimate its performance isnt that good)

True but it's not likely that they'd be stuck in this state forever. Now, if you want to bet on it, then by all means, do so but I won't do that.

plus they tend to fire their asw rockets from vls so it eats space too while we use rbu

Okay and have you taken into account the number of their current surface fleet of capital warships, i.e FFGs and DDGs?? And more importantly, their production capacity?? Now compare that to ours and I don't know about you but it ain't lookin' so good to me, I tell ya.

their anti shipping missiles is also on par if not worse than brahmos

Nah, I'd rate Brahmos, especially after the range and seeker augmentations to be quite higher than their primary anti-ship cruise missiles. But they are catching up fast.

too but the hypersonic missile is better than brahmos (my assuption)

Against big lumbering targets like ACs and LHDs and the sort - maybe but against DDGs and FFGs?? That's a firm no.

 

[Blood+]

Kuch bhi!!

Arey yaar, I already clarified, it was hyperbole, simply to illustrate the utter complacency that has seemingly gripped our leaders - military and civilian alike.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

True but it's not likely that they'd be stuck in this state forever. Now, if you want to bet on it, then by all means, do so but I won't do that.


Okay and have you taken into account the number of their current surface fleet of capital warships, i.e FFGs and DDGs?? And more importantly, their production capacity?? Now compare that to ours and I don't know about you but it ain't lookin' so good to me, I tell ya.

Nah, I'd rate Brahmos, especially after the range and seeker augmentations to be quite higher than their primary anti-ship cruise missiles. But they are catching up fast.

Against big lumbering targets like ACs and LHDs and the sort - maybe but against DDGs and FFGs?? That's a firm no.

thats with us too aint we gonna add aad, xrsam, ersam derivatives to our ships plus the upgraded brahmos x and brahmos 2 also vlsrsam and smart derivatives plus the ship number gonna go up the tech gonna go up after vshorads we can make a missile ciws too like the american ones
the project 18 cruisers would be a game changer too plus another vikrant class tedbf and increase in number of ships too
the thing is we are in a critical state if we go full guns to indigenisation like its going we gonna be a near superpower in 2035-2040 timeline and china would be sweating to take us on geography is with us too

see production capasity is useless if we gonna use andaman and ssk for the blocking them they either have to take a wayy longer route near australia or just stay away or destroy andaman right away then launch strike (its difficult even in that way) even our production capasity can be increased aint it ? once we have enough ahem .....dollars so unofficially americans estimate china outspending them thats more than 800 billion $ per annum thats insane bruv exactly over 10 times above our def bugdets too

so the best option we have is avoid fighting till 2035-2040 increase gdp and infra bring armed forces reform armed forces strengthen navy and air force and let army be in their delusion i have no answer for that buy apacheeeee !

 

[Blood+]

The real danger from PLAN will be post 2035. CCP is expected to prosecute its campaign against Taiwan & India before that.

Hopefully they go for Taiwan first which will hopefully bring the wrath of Uncle SAM and co and once the dust settles, the Chinese likely won't have enough juice left to do anything against us. But that's just wishful thinking on my part I suppose.

This is turn means PLAAF targeting the A&N island chains from Yunan flying over Myanmar. Why else do you think IN has been SO DAMN desperate to get the Rafale M? They've nothing else in the inventory to take on the J-20 & the rest of the FAs , PLAAF would throw at it.

Do they even need to employ their bombers?? I mean it's not as if they are short on MRBMs. Besides, you really think Rafales will be able to counter a gen 5 aircraft?? I mean, sure, if they can close in on them, then the Rafales will have the advantage due to their superior agility but can they??
Besides, if rafales can counter them, then the Super Su-30s should as well. Maybe they should buy some additional Su 30 airframes as well, may be a couple of squadrons?? What do you think??

 

[darkflame]

rafale fan boys are just crazy, no way it can take on j-20,rafale will most likely even get dominated by those chinese flankers with massive aesa radars, meteor is the only thing that saves its ass

 

[Azaad]

Hopefully they go for Taiwan first which will hopefully bring the wrath of Uncle SAM and co and once the dust settles, the Chinese likely won't have enough juice left to do anything against us. But that's just wishful thinking on my part I suppose.


Do they even need to employ their bombers?? I mean it's not as if they are short on MRBMs. Besides, you really think Rafales will be able to counter a gen 5 aircraft?? I mean, sure, if they can close in on them, then the Rafales will have the advantage due to their superior agility but can they??
Besides, if rafales can counter them, then the Super Su-30s should as well. Maybe they should buy some additional Su 30 airframes as well, may be a couple of squadrons?? What do you think??

Honestly no clue. The jury's out on that one .

 

[ezsasa]

the thing is we are in a critical state if we go full guns to indigenisation like its going we gonna be a near superpower in 2035-2040 timeline and china would be sweating to take us on geography is with us too

so the best option we have is avoid fighting till 2035-2040 increase gdp and infra bring armed forces reform armed forces strengthen navy and air force and let army be in their delusion i have no answer for that buy apacheeeee !

weapon system and equipment is only part of story. when and how to use them and not use them, that experience will come only from battlefield experience.

it's already been 25 years since the last "war" i.e kargil, and 50 years since last proper war.
if the country goes on till 2035-40 without war, even the jernails at that time will not have seen war in their lifetime. they may have seen COIN as officers, but not a proper war.

how this will effect any future war, we don't know. there will be a lot of theories and assumptions, that will get tested only when $hit hits the fan.

and chini situation ofcourse is even worse, at this point not even their jernails have seen war firsthand.

 

[fooLIam]

weapon system and equipment is only part of story. when and how to use them and not use them, that experience will come only from battlefield experience.

it's already been 25 years since the last "war" i.e kargil, and 50 years since last proper war.
if the country goes on till 2035-40 without war, even the jernails at that time will not have seen war in their lifetime. they may have seen COIN as officers, but not a proper war.

how this will effect any future war, we don't know. there will be a lot of theories and assumptions, that will get tested only when $hit hits the fan.

and chini situation ofcourse is even worse, at this point not even their jernails have seen war firsthand.

Chinese have at this time have industrialisation,technology and resources (not to mention their modernisation efforts are going smoothly)on their hand ,far more than us. I don’t think their learning curve will be that bad if they do decide to go for war.

 

[Blood+]

rafale fan boys are just crazy, no way it can take on j-20,[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. If they can close the gap, they'll have all the advantage due to their super cruise and superior maneuverability but getting close will be the tricky part. Along the LAC, there will be a good chance of that happening if they fly low (and they WILL). But yeah, in every other situation, Rafales will be at a huge disadvantage.

rafale will most likely even get dominated by those chinese flankers with massive aesa radars,

Not with them glowing like a damn supernova on FLIRs, they won't.

meteor is the only thing that saves its ass

You forgot Spectra.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

You want them to go first against Taiwan so that they loose some steam and it becomes easier for India.

Meanwhile the US & West would want them to go first against India... so they get a bleeding nose... & the US will actively plot for this outcome... so that it becomes easier to defend Taiwan.

 

[ezsasa]

Chinese have at this time have industrialisation,technology and resources (not to mention their modernisation efforts are going smoothly)on their hand ,far more than us. I don’t think their learning curve will be that bad if they do decide to go for war.

we have to presume, this is one of the scenarios our security establishment is preparing for along with a two front war, factoring in probabilities going up and down over a period of time.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Chinese have at this time have industrialisation,technology and resources (not to mention their modernisation efforts are going smoothly)on their hand ,far more than us. I don’t think their learning curve will be that bad if they do decide to go for war.

well only thing that the army got an edge is the missile tech brahmos (whose number plays an x factor) and nirbhay pralay combo is very effective too hopefully we have a lot of brahmos in stock since its number is kept very confidential
one of chink jurno aimed at 14000 number but i/we dont know whats its exactly

 

[Blood+]

well only thing that the army got an edge is the missile tech brahmos (whose number plays an x factor) and nirbhay pralay combo is very effective too hopefully we have a lot of brahmos in stock since its number is kept very confidential
one of chink jurno aimed at 14000 number but i/we dont know whats its exactly

That's nonsense, in all probability. I'd say, among the 3 services, they'll have maybe a couple of thousand (and even that might be too optimistic a figure).