India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

Azaad

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Indian Army Gernail during Service: Avoid war at any cost, because everyone knows IA equipment shortfalls..

Indian Army Gernail after Retirement: Thrash Pakistan Army on Indian TV channels for breakfast and then again for lunch..

Thank God we have 1.8 lakh manpower shortfall, with Modi planning to reduce another 100k of these clowns.

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The more I read articles like this the more I'm convinced the upcoming war with China is going to be an untold disaster leaving Modi's reputation & legacy in tatters , if remedial measures aren't undertaken immediately .

The downsizing in the IA , itself an extremely ill advised move given the 2.5 front - all of which are active & of which 1 of them is predicated to be fought on the mountains itself a highly specialised job , was supposed to have been accompanied by modernisation . Where's it ?

To top it all , we're actively thinking of theaterization. It's the theatre of the absurd we're having out here.
 

Azaad

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my personal feeling is that gov doesnt want to fight pakistan at border .
give some good gear+intel to baloch rebels . really really want to see another pakistan air base burning:drool:
We're not fighting them on the LoC is because we can't fight them on the LoC given our existing force levels. Ideally our para militaries like the CRPF & TA should've taken over from the IA & RR but surprise surprise they've yet to fit themselves into the role.

Even more surprisingly the same CRPF which was being clobbered by the Maoists in Central India all through the mid 2000s - mid 2010s have now reinvented themselves such that they're on the verge of eliminating the Maoists. But it's a different & sorry story in Kashmir.
 

Master Chief

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The more I read articles like this the more I'm convinced the upcoming war with China is going to be an untold disaster leaving Modi's reputation & legacy in tatters , if remedial measures aren't undertaken immediately .

The downsizing in the IA , itself an extremely ill advised move given the 2.5 front - all of which are active & of which 1 of them is predicated to be fought on the mountains itself a highly specialised job , was supposed to have been accompanied by modernisation . Where's it ?

To top it all , we're actively thinking of theaterization. It's the theatre of the absurd we're having out here.
Why will there be a war when our Army is never meant to fight a war ? We will make adjustments of the LAC, and give up some territory to China, I guess..
I just don't want Modi to rename places in Tibet, because the Thrashing of the Indian Army might be worse than in 1962, if China decides to go the attrition war way..
 

maximus777

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The more I read articles like this the more I'm convinced the upcoming war with China is going to be an untold disaster leaving Modi's reputation & legacy in tatters , if remedial measures aren't undertaken immediately .

The downsizing in the IA , itself an extremely ill advised move given the 2.5 front - all of which are active & of which 1 of them is predicated to be fought on the mountains itself a highly specialised job , was supposed to have been accompanied by modernisation . Where's it ?

To top it all , we're actively thinking of theaterization. It's the theatre of the absurd we're having out here.
God forbid, but if war is hoisted on us we will fight a slow meatgrinder Kargil like war. It eats up manpower like no other. Until we go James Bond level hi tech, manpower is our strength and we need to play to it. I am baffled by this 56D chess move. Junk equipment + shortfall in manpower is perfect recipe for disaster. Vishwaguru legacy-wala deserves this though!
 

Master Chief

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God forbid, but if war is hoisted on us we will fight a slow meatgrinder Kargil like war. It eats up manpower like no other. Until we go James Bond level hi tech, manpower is our strength and we need to play to it. I am baffled by this 56D chess move. Junk equipment + shortfall in manpower is perfect recipe for disaster. Vishwaguru legacy-wala deserves this though!
What meat grinders you are talking about ?
We lost just 600 men in Kargil.. and Pakis maybe 3000.. How many Army men have died in all Independent India's conventional conflicts combined ? It's less than 10,000 in 77 years ... Very small, for a million man Army..

We have neither the equipment or Industry for attrition war.

IF CRPF/BSF can take the fight into Naxal dens and defeat them.. I think we should use this cheaper CAPF option to saturate Jammu Kashmir .. There would be more casualties, but they will improve with time..
 
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RocketMan

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We are 15 years behind schedule on Army & Air force modernization. Without an increase in defence budget only option left for army would be to downsize below 10 lakh & rely more on agniveers. Unconventional warfare against Porks should be escalated , Karachi/Islamabad/KPK/Balochistan should feel the heat (serial blasts,sectarian faultlines) & unknown gunmen should keep targetting these swines.
 

Master Chief

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We are 15 years behind schedule on Army & Air force modernization. Without an increase in defence budget only option left for army would be to downsize below 10 lakh & rely more on agniveers. Unconventional warfare against Porks should be escalated , Karachi/Islamabad/KPK/Balochistan should feel the heat (serial blasts,sectarian faultlines) & unknown gunmen should keep targetting these swines.
I guess Modi plan is this:
1. REDUCE Manpower and pension expenses as much possible to increase capital expenditure.
2. In the very rare scenario that there is a real conventional war Imposed on India.. Callback the necessary number of retired Agniveers and offer to make them permanent..
 

Zoid Raptor

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Even more surprisingly the same CRPF which was being clobbered by the Maoists in Central India all through the mid 2000s - mid 2010s have now reinvented themselves such that they're on the verge of eliminating the Maoists. But it's a different & sorry story in Kashmir.
CRPF did a piss poor job with naxals in the surrounding districts I used to live in back then. They had no strategy when it comes to intel and used to rely on the intel provided by local police who were all naxal sympathizers and this is post 2010 as well. I had many friends whose families hail from naxal infested regions and they had a much better info on naxal movements over CRPF

Cobra commandos were effective but they're more like hitmen, effective to take down naxals when they had pin point accuracy in intel but they're smaller in numbers with limited reach. It was not until the BSF was deployed which is when we started real change since they formulated their own intel channels and actively hired locals to change the narrative with zero reliance on local police
 

Kumaoni

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CRPF did a piss poor job with naxals in the surrounding districts I used to live in back then. They had no strategy when it comes to intel and used to rely on the intel provided by local police who were all naxal sympathizers and this is post 2010 as well. I had many friends whose families hail from naxal infested regions and they had a much better info on naxal movements over CRPF

Cobra commandos were effective but they're more like hitmen, effective to take down naxals when they had pin point accuracy in intel but they're smaller in numbers with limited reach. It was not until the BSF was deployed which is when we started real change since they formulated their own intel channels and actively hired locals to change the narrative with zero reliance on local police
CRPF has made crazy progress in the LWE. They were once getting their asses whooped it was honestly sad. Now? They are wiping out LWE territories without a scratch.
 

Kumaoni

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We're not fighting them on the LoC is because we can't fight them on the LoC given our existing force levels. Ideally our para militaries like the CRPF & TA should've taken over from the IA & RR but surprise surprise they've yet to fit themselves into the role.

Even more surprisingly the same CRPF which was being clobbered by the Maoists in Central India all through the mid 2000s - mid 2010s have now reinvented themselves such that they're on the verge of eliminating the Maoists. But it's a different & sorry story in Kashmir.
I have to disagree in regards to Kashmir. The militant groups are pretty much on the verge of being wiped out. All in all, both SF and Sexurity causlaties plummeted in the mid 2000s and are slowly starting to plummet even now. Them attacking civilians is to be expected from a defeated group of peopel.
 

Blood+

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The more I read articles like this the more I'm convinced the upcoming war with China is going to be an untold disaster leaving Modi's reputation & legacy in tatters , if remedial measures aren't undertaken immediately .

The downsizing in the IA , itself an extremely ill advised move given the 2.5 front - all of which are active & of which 1 of them is predicated to be fought on the mountains itself a highly specialised job , was supposed to have been accompanied by modernisation . Where's it ?

To top it all , we're actively thinking of theaterization. It's the theatre of the absurd we're having out here.
We're supremely fortunate that we've got the fucking Himalays defending our entire northern border or else, we'd all be speaking Mandarin by now.
 

Waanar

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We're supremely fortunate that we've got the fucking Himalays defending our entire northern border or else, we'd all be speaking Mandarin by now.
Lets not get carried away. PLA is an unproven force.
Their performance during peacekeeping, while not exactly a 1:1 view of their peer to peer capability at all, is pathetic beyond belief.

That and the corruption within the PLA is a significant thing. Call it cope or whatever you think is true for me but I fully believe the absurdity of Chinese ranks siphoning and selling missile fuel and substituting it with water as per US intel.
Its not a PsyOp to weaken trust of the Chinese in the PLA, otherwise there'd a much heavier emphasis on outreach through Mandarin and we probably wouldn't be the audience (we, as in the public domain on the anglophone side).

Yes, a war with China would be disastrous for us in any case but I don't think the match is rigged against us the way many of us tend to believe.
That and the fact that the CCP won't be able to free up their entire arsenal against us because of the imminent threat of a US intervention at a place of their choosing.

We're not free of the same curse either, I understand, but we're not at a place where the Chinese will steamroll us, even if the land between us were plains and not mountains.

There's this mentality among the Indian officers which they often say out loud with glistening eyes and a smile.
"Indian Army is not an expeditionary force."

Its like a MMA fighter claiming "I'm not a violent man".
Well, that just sucks for you then, doesn't it?

This mentality needs to not just be shut down but actively punished for. Much like you would punish a cadet for saying "I'm a lone wolf who doesn't work well with a team".

All the people who are coping with philosophy by thinking "Oh, this shallow brained f**k doesn't realize what they're trying to say is they can bring that capability but actively chose to not attack because they're so mature and angelic" need to zip it.

Expeditionary capability doesn't appear out of the blue just because you've mastered defense (and if the Jammu attacks are anything to go by, we're far from mastering defense either.)
Its a capability that takes decades to develop. USA, the most warlike and expeditionary nation on earth post WW2, needs to reorient it's troops towards peer to peer threats and expeditionary warfare even though they waged an unbelievably effective expedition in both Afghanistan and Iraq barely 2 decades ago and were consistently fighting COIN afterwards

No one is special, there's no special DNA which activates in time of need, people don't tear out a handpump in a fit of rage because their body has a hidden secret mechanism. That's movie stuff and unfortunately, Indians subconsciously believe that our troops will rise to the occasion with sub par training.

What a double edged sword, eh?
If you actively propagate that the Indian Military is falling behind, you risk demoralizing the solider but can force better training and equipment purchase.

If you don't you risk getting a rude shock in war but with heroic valor that is unmatched and the nature of Indian soldiers.

Such a conundrum.
 

Blood+

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Lets not get carried away. PLA is an unproven force.
Their performance during peacekeeping, while not exactly a 1:1 view of their peer to peer capability at all, is pathetic beyond belief.

That and the corruption within the PLA is a significant thing. Call it cope or whatever you think is true for me but I fully believe the absurdity of Chinese ranks siphoning and selling missile fuel and substituting it with water as per US intel.
Its not a PsyOp to weaken trust of the Chinese in the PLA, otherwise there'd a much heavier emphasis on outreach through Mandarin and we probably wouldn't be the audience (we, as in the public domain on the anglophone side).

Yes, a war with China would be disastrous for us in any case but I don't think the match is rigged against us the way many of us tend to believe.
That and the fact that the CCP won't be able to free up their entire arsenal against us because of the imminent threat of a US intervention at a place of their choosing.

We're not free of the same curse either, I understand, but we're not at a place where the Chinese will steamroll us, even if the land between us were plains and not mountains.

There's this mentality among the Indian officers which they often say out loud with glistening eyes and a smile.
"Indian Army is not an expeditionary force."

Its like a MMA fighter claiming "I'm not a violent man".
Well, that just sucks for you then, doesn't it?

This mentality needs to not just be shut down but actively punished for. Much like you would punish a cadet for saying "I'm a lone wolf who doesn't work well with a team".

All the people who are coping with philosophy by thinking "Oh, this shallow brained f**k doesn't realize what they're trying to say is they can bring that capability but actively chose to not attack because they're so mature and angelic" need to zip it.

Expeditionary capability doesn't appear out of the blue just because you've mastered defense (and if the Jammu attacks are anything to go by, we're far from mastering defense either.)
Its a capability that takes decades to develop. USA, the most warlike and expeditionary nation on earth post WW2, needs to reorient it's troops towards peer to peer threats and expeditionary warfare even though they waged an unbelievably effective expedition in both Afghanistan and Iraq barely 2 decades ago and were consistently fighting COIN afterwards

No one is special, there's no special DNA which activates in time of need, people don't tear out a handpump in a fit of rage because their body has a hidden secret mechanism. That's movie stuff and unfortunately, Indians subconsciously believe that our troops will rise to the occasion with sub par training.

What a double edged sword, eh?
If you actively propagate that the Indian Military is falling behind, you risk demoralizing the solider but can force better training and equipment purchase.

If you don't you risk getting a rude shock in war but with heroic valor that is unmatched and the nature of Indian soldiers.

Such a conundrum.
Dude, I was simply being hyperbolic!! I thought it was obvious. What I meant to say was that the terrain wouldn't allow the PLAGF to fully exploit their superior mobility and firepower, which they would be able to do if it was a plain and we'd be in lot deeper shit than we're in now. I still wonder what keeps the IA top brass from fortifying the shit out of LAC. I mean do we lack even basic building materials like concrete and rebars??!!
 
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Smoothbore125mm

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Lets not get carried away. PLA is an unproven force.
Their performance during peacekeeping, while not exactly a 1:1 view of their peer to peer capability at all, is pathetic beyond belief.

That and the corruption within the PLA is a significant thing. Call it cope or whatever you think is true for me but I fully believe the absurdity of Chinese ranks siphoning and selling missile fuel and substituting it with water as per US intel.
Its not a PsyOp to weaken trust of the Chinese in the PLA, otherwise there'd a much heavier emphasis on outreach through Mandarin and we probably wouldn't be the audience (we, as in the public domain on the anglophone side).

Yes, a war with China would be disastrous for us in any case but I don't think the match is rigged against us the way many of us tend to believe.
That and the fact that the CCP won't be able to free up their entire arsenal against us because of the imminent threat of a US intervention at a place of their choosing.

We're not free of the same curse either, I understand, but we're not at a place where the Chinese will steamroll us, even if the land between us were plains and not mountains.

There's this mentality among the Indian officers which they often say out loud with glistening eyes and a smile.
"Indian Army is not an expeditionary force."

Its like a MMA fighter claiming "I'm not a violent man".
Well, that just sucks for you then, doesn't it?

This mentality needs to not just be shut down but actively punished for. Much like you would punish a cadet for saying "I'm a lone wolf who doesn't work well with a team".

All the people who are coping with philosophy by thinking "Oh, this shallow brained f**k doesn't realize what they're trying to say is they can bring that capability but actively chose to not attack because they're so mature and angelic" need to zip it.

Expeditionary capability doesn't appear out of the blue just because you've mastered defense (and if the Jammu attacks are anything to go by, we're far from mastering defense either.)
Its a capability that takes decades to develop. USA, the most warlike and expeditionary nation on earth post WW2, needs to reorient it's troops towards peer to peer threats and expeditionary warfare even though they waged an unbelievably effective expedition in both Afghanistan and Iraq barely 2 decades ago and were consistently fighting COIN afterwards

No one is special, there's no special DNA which activates in time of need, people don't tear out a handpump in a fit of rage because their body has a hidden secret mechanism. That's movie stuff and unfortunately, Indians subconsciously believe that our troops will rise to the occasion with sub par training.

What a double edged sword, eh?
If you actively propagate that the Indian Military is falling behind, you risk demoralizing the solider but can force better training and equipment purchase.

If you don't you risk getting a rude shock in war but with heroic valor that is unmatched and the nature of Indian soldiers.

Such a conundrum.
well as an indian i would prepare for the very worst option that would be taking the full pla capasity in mind
so by far pla and plan isnt the problem its the pla air force thats the problem they have good logistics production capasity anyone is the world hasnt seen and others they are nearing 100 -150 j21 per year
even though we label it as a 4.5 gen aircraft max its still adding 150 of them every year thats a big point of concern
secondly the fpv and drone warfare now china is the market leader in drones and drone production plus batteries no comparison to us with than it they veto half of our screwdrivered product would be scrap metal with no battery and electricles
thirdly the plan and its rate of production though geography always saves us plan is still developing very fast they even out built usa (with inferior tech but high numbers) so its better to plan (joke intended)
 

Blood+

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well as an indian i would prepare for the very worst option that would be taking the full pla capasity in mind
so by far pla and plan isnt the problem
That WOULD BE the case had the Army top leadership hadn't had their collective heads stuck in the places where nothing ever shines!! I mean what these mofos have done with arty and infantry modernization is treason of the highest order and that's putting it mildly!!


its the pla air force thats the problem they have good logistics production capasity anyone is the world hasnt seen and others they are nearing 100 -150 j21 per year
Are you certain about that figure?? Although, I would say their advantage in numbers can be mitigated with some minor innovations on IAF's part.
For one, I'd ask the DRDO to immediately start working on turning Pinaka-2 rockets into air-surface missiles like Rampage and get them into production as soon as humanly possible. I mean, it shouldn't be that big of a hurdle considering we already have the infrastructure in place to mass produce them with new facilities coming up online in the near future (Adani and Solar).

Second, develop a ground launched version of the SAAW with EO sensors. It will be many times cheaper than cruise missiles and thus can be yeeted at them in big numbers to saturate and overwhelm the air defenses of their forward air bases.

Third - build under ground facilities with hydraulic lifts for air defense radars and SAM launchers to keep them from getting knocked out by PLAAF's SEAD sorties.

even though we label it as a 4.5 gen aircraft max its still adding 150 of them every year thats a big point of concern
Let's just be real here - those who make that claim are in a protracted stage of denial.

secondly the fpv and drone warfare now china is the market leader in drones and drone production plus batteries no comparison to us with than it they veto half of our screwdrivered product would be scrap metal with no battery and electricles
True but how effective those will be in the higher altitudes of the LAC is still up for debate. Plus, as the Ruskies have shown, these drones (and anything that relies on GPS) can absolutely be nullified by widescale adoption of broad spectrum jammers and that's one area where DRDO has done quite well for themselves.

thirdly the plan and its rate of production though geography always saves us plan is still developing very fast they even out built usa (with inferior tech but high numbers) so its better to plan (joke intended)
For PLAN, we'd need to place over-the-horizon radars in the Andaman and Nicobar islands and litter them with anti-ship weapons. A ground launched SAAW can come in extremely handy for this task as well.
 

RocketMan

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That WOULD BE the case had the Army top leadership hadn't had their collective heads stuck in the places where nothing ever shines!! I mean what these mofos have done with arty and infantry modernization is treason of the highest order and that's putting it mildly!!



Are you certain about that figure?? Although, I would say their advantage in numbers can be mitigated with some minor innovations on IAF's part.
For one, I'd ask the DRDO to immediately start working on turning Pinaka-2 rockets into air-surface missiles like Rampage and get them into production as soon as humanly possible. I mean, it shouldn't be that big of a hurdle considering we already have the infrastructure in place to mass produce them with new facilities coming up online in the near future (Adani and Solar).

Second, develop a ground launched version of the SAAW with EO sensors. It will be many times cheaper than cruise missiles and thus can be yeeted at them in big numbers to saturate and overwhelm the air defenses of their forward air bases.

Third - build under ground facilities with hydraulic lifts for air defense radars and SAM launchers to keep them from getting knocked out by PLAAF's SEAD sorties.


Let's just be real here - those who make that claim are in a protracted stage of denial.


True but how effective those will be in the higher altitudes of the LAC is still up for debate. Plus, as the Ruskies have shown, these drones (and anything that relies on GPS) can absolutely be nullified by widescale adoption of broad spectrum jammers and that's one area where DRDO has done quite well for themselves.


For PLAN, we'd need to place over-the-horizon radars in the Andaman and Nicobar islands and litter them with anti-ship weapons. A ground launched SAAW can come in extremely handy for this task as well.
Don't forget SMART missile-torpedoes & underwater hydrophones . We tend to underestimate our Navy but remember it has 2 carriers , nuclear subs & P8I armed with harpoons along with guided missile frigates/destroyers with Kalibr/Brahmos which can sink any Chinese flotilla sent over here .
 

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