India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

[mist_consecutive]

I WILL go by what the Chinese says and you should too. As my instructor says, it's a lot better to overestimate your opponent and over train than underestimating him and then getting my shit kicked in.

While your instructor is correct and I agree with him, the downsides of overestimating your opponent is decision paralysis, which we have always faced due to our this exact humble nature of overestimating our opponent.

@Blood+ Chinese culture has the habit of boasting & show-off, which is incompatible with western as well as our culture where humbleness is considered the virtue. This has been proven again and again how fake & empy Chinese threats are.
That doesn't mean China is a weak pushover, its just that they aren't as strong as they portray themselves to be.

where is the money for this ?

Handed over to poors annaadatas, minorities and other "backward" communities so that they can eat & live for free while shitting on India.

 

[Blood+]

Are you in the Army or any of the CAPFs ?

Nah, I've got myopia. I meant my muay thai instructor.

PS - I do not claim to be this absolute badass or anything, I very rarely spar and just take it as a form of cardio.

 

[Jimih]

Nah, I've got myopia. I meant my muay thai instructor.

PS - I do not claim to be this absolute badass or anything, I very rarely spar and just take it as a form of cardio.

In the past I got interested in Muay Thai after watching Tony Jaa's movies.

 

[Blood+]

In the past I got interested in Muay Thai after watching Tony Ja's movies.

Same here. I took it up because of that dude, but I can't do him justice I'm afraid.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

where is the money for this ?

thats a little bad since 1 billion gone for 6 apache helicopters

for 1 billion you get 307 atags + 1300 alsv + some kestrels too
or
30 lch prachand too

thats for the primary thing anyone can calculate that 30 mediorcre tech heli > 6 heavy heli operation wise or 307 155mm guns gonna fire much more hell than those 6 apache combined too

what we need is better management first and bigger budget second

the pensions should be removed and salaries increased no problem if it goes till 200k crore we still save 100k crore too those may go to rnd and others (100k crore =12.5 billion $ thats huge)

 

[fooLIam]

Making and publishing National security documents will be good start. Why doesn’t it happen is beyond my grasp.

Handed over to poors annaadatas, minorities and other "backward" communities so that they can eat & live for free while shitting on India.

You did see the 2024 mandate until we are electoral dumbocracy it will keep happening and national security will be ignored over these petty things.

 

[another_armchair]

You want them to go first against Taiwan so that they loose some steam and it becomes easier for India.

Meanwhile the US & West would want them to go first against India... so they get a bleeding nose... & the US will actively plot for this outcome... so that it becomes easier to defend Taiwan.

... China would want Pakistan to have a go against India first so China can have it easy.

Difficult to guess a date when we will see official declaration of war but the chances of it happening are higher when there is a weak coalition government taking orders from Islamabad, DC, EU & sundry others while internal strife(communal tension, caste division, separatist activities) hits a simultaneous peak.

Govt. has experimented with moderating internet during riots/social disturbances to play out scenarios when shit truly hits the fan.

Lots of data points have been gathered from Bhima Koregaon riots, Delhi communal riots and the current Christian church funded Kuki separatist movement in Manipur cleverly disguised as tribal rights movement.

 

[Blood+]

While your instructor is correct and I agree with him, the downsides of overestimating your opponent is decision paralysis, which we have always faced due to our this exact humble nature of overestimating our opponent.

@Blood+ Chinese culture has the habit of boasting & show-off, which is incompatible with western as well as our culture where humbleness is considered the virtue. This has been proven again and again how fake & empy Chinese threats are.
That doesn't mean China is a weak pushover, its just that they aren't as strong as they portray themselves to be.

Absolutely and that's exactly my point. We should use their boasts as a motivation to make ourselves train harder and improve faster rather than going into despair and defeatism!!

Handed over to poors annaadatas, minorities and other "backward" communities so that they can eat & live for free while shitting on India.

To be fair, given the economic situation, the GoI cannot do away with welfare and doles and subsidies; not yet anyhow but it has to be done within reason!! Unfortunately, it seems they have completely lost the plot and gone overboard with the freebies. And after the election results, it's gonna get only worse, I'm afraid.

 

[ezsasa]

Make more provisions. Your budget ought to be a reflection of both - your economic strengths & the threat perception. Ask yourself if we're complying with any , leave aside either or both stipulations?

Indian defence budget has hidden components, legacy infrastructure gaps that are being fulfilled in border states are shown under civilian infra account, all of it is debited from same exchequers account in the books.

in other words, if infra would have been in place, GoI would have has more flexibility on capex. since it is not, here we are.

anyways it's not like forces have sorted out their procurement processes, they are yet to figure out what exactly they want and how fast they want it. filmy dialogues like "i want it yesterday" does not cut it.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

Our long term acquisition planning(for acquiring big assets like fighters & submarines) has consistently failed... but we learnt nothing and kept our focus on it... while at the same time the lower strata of firepower i.e. infantry, SF etc. suffered.

Now as we are assuming that D-day is atmost a few years away... we cannot hope of building hundreds of fighters or dozens of submarines in this time period.

Focus should be on the following items which can give bloody nose to any adversary... we need stockpiles of following...
1. ATGMs various types
2. MANPADS (2 different guidance systems)
3. LMG/MMG/Snipers
4. State of the art Air defence guns
5. Mass availability of modern NVG/TI/BFSR/WLR/SDR/SATCOM for our troops
6. Get a 150+km MBRL ready and mass produced.
7. Place mass orders for Akash-NG & QRSAM
8. Immediately place orders for 307x ATGS, 100x K-9 & other Artillery types as needed.

Above are the items that can "save your dignity and sovereignty" and can be built up in numbers in few months to yrs... so pay attention to these first rather than wasting all time and effort in pursuing Shiney toys.

 

[daya]

Lots of data points have been gathered from Bhima Koregaon riots, Delhi communal riots and the current Christian church funded Kuki separatist movement in Manipur cleverly disguised as tribal rights movement.

But did nothing to hit these elements, not even to counter them in social media even.

 

[another_armchair]

But did nothing to hit these elements, not even to counter them in social media even.

Missing - The will to act.

Begets the question why.

Have got tired asking so I don't bother citing it anymore.

 

[Azaad]

Indian defence budget has hidden components, legacy infrastructure gaps that are being fulfilled in border states are shown under civilian infra account, all of it is debited from same exchequers account in the books.

in other words, if infra would have been in place, GoI would have has more flexibility on capex. since it is not, here we are.

anyways it's not like forces have sorted out their procurement processes, they are yet to figure out what exactly they want and how fast they want it. filmy dialogues like "i want it yesterday" does not cut it.

Depends on how does the government want to account for infrastructure eventually . Does it see it as CAPEX to be deducted from the IA's or the armed forces kitty thus reducing their overall CAPEX or does it see it as something essential with multiple benefits i.e - civilian & military , which should come out of the government coffers ?

I don't buy this argument though this government can well resort to hiding behind it .

That's what I've written before. The IA is taking its own sweet time to modernise & upgrade even for the limited CAPEX at its disposal which can be certainly deployed for some productive purposes for reasons only they know best.

 

[mokoman]

thats a little bad since 1 billion gone for 6 apache helicopters

for 1 billion you get 307 atags + 1300 alsv + some kestrels too
or
30 lch prachand too

thats for the primary thing anyone can calculate that 30 mediorcre tech heli > 6 heavy heli operation wise or 307 155mm guns gonna fire much more hell than those 6 apache combined too

what we need is better management first and bigger budget second

the pensions should be removed and salaries increased no problem if it goes till 200k crore we still save 100k crore too those may go to rnd and others (100k crore =12.5 billion $ thats huge)

that remindes me , what happened to the apache stranded on ladakh mountain .

anyone know ?

 

[ezsasa]

Depends on how does the government want to account for infrastructure eventually . Does it see it as CAPEX to be deducted from the IA's or the armed forces kitty thus reducing their overall CAPEX or does it see it as something essential with multiple benefits i.e - civilian & military , which should come out of the government coffers ?

I don't buy this argument though this government can well resort to hiding behind it .

That's what I've written before. The IA is taking its own sweet time to modernise & upgrade even for the limited CAPEX at its disposal which can be certainly deployed for some productive purposes for reasons only they know best.

"hiding" is just for this argument sake, since this convo was happening under the silo of military preparedness.

as long as the point is understood, that there are other ancillary costs as well, that go beyond military expenses, but come under the larger umbrella of national security with dual use components. ultimately majority of financing comes from either tax or debt.

 

[Jimih]

that remindes me , what happened to the apache stranded on ladakh mountain .

anyone know ?

Yes it's parked in my Garage now.

 

[Azaad]

"hiding" is just for this argument sake, since this convo was happening under the silo of military preparedness.

as long as the point is understood, that there are other ancillary costs as well, that go beyond military expenses, but come under the larger umbrella of national security with dual use components. ultimately majority of financing comes from either tax or debt.

How much weightage would you attach to fiscal prudence for a country sandwiched between 2 hostile N powers as neighbours whose only mutual bond is between our destruction & seizing our territory , especially at a time like this , when the bigger & more dangerous foe is now no longer boxing in the shadows but is out in the open with its hostilities ?

Do we continue penny pinching when the situation demands the opposite ? These aren't very complicated issues unless we've decided to complicate it.

Finally if the IA isn't getting it's act together w.r.t procurement it's for the MoD & the Raksha Mantri to read them the riot act if he can tell the difference between a howitzer & assault rifle & for that to happen the question - do both of them share a similar threat perception - must be asked ? That should explain a lot if not the entire game .

 

[Cheepek]

It's related to IWT only

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

When this happens in Chennai, that happens in Reasi

 

[Jimih]