India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[Koovie]

A big deal
Dec 08, 2011

The $22 billion (and not $10 billion, as has been reported) deal for the medium-range multi-role combat aircraft (MMCRA) could become a Bofors-like political liability for the ruling Congress Party, if it fails to get it right. Inordinate amounts of political capital and financial resources will be invested in it, and the Indian taxpayer has the right to expect that the numerous contracts will be unlike any contracts signed by the Indian government in the past.

Enough Indian money has been spent without any enduring benefits for the people to be wary of the defence ministry's Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) that will be talking soon with the vendors of the shortlisted aircraft — Rafale and Eurofighter. The PNCs constituted for earlier deals emptied the treasury but settled meagrely for only licensed manufacture of planes. This sort of deal will be unacceptable hereon. Especially because the high stakes for Dassault and EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company N.V.) means India can ask for anything and get it.

The trouble is the status quo serves the interests of all concerned very well. The ruling party at the Centre — the Congress Party, owing to its long years in power, has signed most of the major military acquisitions deals to-date — and its leaders, invariably gain from commissions reportedly channelled their way. The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has scrupulously shied away from developing in-house aircraft design and development skills and competences, values only imported aircraft because, the service brass claim, these are top-of-the-line and reliable. Consequently, it has gone out of its way to stymie indigenous aircraft development programmes. It deliberately killed the Marut-HF-24 Mark II — successor to the Mark I version widely hailed as aerodynamically the best combat aircraft of its time. Created by Kurt Tank, the great German designer of Focke-Wulfe warplanes for the Luftwaffe in the Second World War and hired by Jawaharlal Nehru, the HF-24 programme, had it been nursed to maturity, would have resulted in a flourishing aircraft industry in the country by the 1970s. Learning nothing from that episode, the IAF today is delaying the series production of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This is so, notwithstanding the fact that, avionics-wise, the LCA is at the 4.5 generation level, more capable than any fighter aircraft currently in the IAF inventory.

Supposed to gain from technology transferred to it, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is, like the country, a classic under-achiever. Restricting itself to "production engineering", HAL's capability has calcified at the Meccano-type skill sets-level. Meccano was a toy assembly kit available up until the Sixties for seven to 10 year olds who, following simple instructions, could screw this part on to that one and come up with a crane or some such thing! Meccano no more made the child an engineer than licence manufacturing makes HAL an aircraft design and development Company. But, dog in the manger-like, it is permitted to veto technology being transferred by foreign suppliers to private sector companies that are in far better position to speedily absorb and utilise the advanced technologies, something HAL is manifestly incapable of doing. With all the players in the game eager to retain the present arrangement quo, it is little wonder that India gets shafted every time. The onus is on defence minister A.K. Antony to ensure that this doesn't happen ever again and to instruct the PNC accordingly.

The criteria to judge if the MMRCA deal serves the national interest will be, firstly, whether Indian industry obtains, without hitch, source codes (millions of lines of software) for every aspect of the aircraft as also comprehensive flight control laws. Secondly, the contract ensures that, as a result of the deal, India is hoisted into the cutting edge technology ranks and seeds a globally competitive aerospace industry in the country. And, lastly, India secures access to critical technology outside the combat aircraft field. Contracts will have to be so written as to index large payments against the meeting of technology transfer benchmarks, such as the full and timely delivery of the codes and the laws, and the entrenching of advanced technologies in the country.

By way of offsets, both Dassault peddling Rafale and EADS the Eurofighter, have promised to set up R&D centres here. Their research agendas will have to be competitively fixed, systems of oversight established, and the extent of Indian contributions to the ongoing production and service support of Rafale/Eurofighter for global sales and to any future manned and unmanned aircraft projects, pre-determined.

Dassault and EADS are both willing to part with single crystal blade turbine technology (which allows the aircraft engine to generate more power at higher temperatures), but collaboration in developing the follow-on ceramic turbine blade technology for even more enhanced aircraft engine performance will have to be insisted upon. Manned fighter aircraft, as this analyst has repeatedly stressed, are becoming obsolete. In order to firm up future air warfare options, direct Indian involvement in the advanced Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles, being developed by Dassault in its Neuron project and EADS in its Barracuda programme, is a price both vendors would happily pay to engage India in other high-technology ventures the French company and the European consortium are exploring.

Rafale seems to have an edge, owing to its Active Electronically Scanned Array radar for air-to-air missions, whereas EADS has it only as prototype. This is fortuitous in a way because France can, as an inalienable part of the MMRCA deal, be persuaded to allow Indian nuclear weapons designers access to its Megajoule inertial confinement nuclear fusion facility near Bordeaux, to help rectify the thermonuclear weapon design that proved a dud on testing in 1998, and to work on other fusion weapons configurations. This will not obviate the need for physical tests in the future, but inspire some confidence in the Indian strategic nuclear arsenal in the interim. Such access is a must and it can be extracted, howsoever painfully, from Paris now when it is really desperate to keep a combat aircraft design and development capability alive in France. It is an opportunity not to be missed.

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi

the lca is the most caable aircraft in our inventory?!

 

[Patriot]

Rafale's raft of skills made an impression in Libya offensive

LANGKAWI: The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's aerial bombing campaign in Libya tested the capabilities of Dassault Aviation's Rafale as a multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) and it passed with flying colours, said a French air force pilot who flew it during the campaign.

The aircraft's superiority in tactical data gathering and communication made it a prime choice as mission commander during the United Nations-sanctioned incursion.

French air force Capt Cedric "Rut" Ruet, 38, who flew 18 sorties and clocked between 80 and 90 flying hours in Libya, said the Rafale had proven its combat-worthiness during the campaign.

"It has proven to be a truly next- generation MRCA from day one on March 19 when we flew three Rafales from France for an intelligence-gathering mission and to enforce a no-fly zone around Benghazi......................

 

[weg]

175 million is the life cost of the planes which includes the spares and weapons, I think. Not all equipment is use and throw.

Life time cost of fighters are 3x purchase cost, which is why the F-35 program cost is $400million per aircraft. The US is looking at $1.2 Trillion for the F-35, disappointing but no different from the F-16 and other programs.

 

[p2prada]

the lca is the most caable aircraft in our inventory?!

He does not know much about aircraft. Leave it.

 

[Koovie]

PICTURE: Raptor snapshots by the Rafale - The DEW Line

according to flight global winner should have been announced today

 

[Param]

The circus called MMRCA should be cancelled. GoI should go in for mass production of LCA Mk1 and Mk2, order 40 more Sukhoi Super30s.
With the price tag soaring to $20billion and a GDP slowing how do they intend to finance the deal?

Except for J20 that would probably enter service after 2017, the rest of the aircraft in PLAF, PAF inventory is no match to MKI. With Pakfa coming after 2017 there is no need for EF or Rafale.

Instead of spending exorbitant amounts on fancy equipment the Govt should focus more on Kaveri engine, development of better Aero engines and spend more on that front.

 

[Dovah]

The circus called MMRCA should be cancelled. GoI should go in for mass production of LCA Mk1 and Mk2, order 40 more Sukhoi Super30s.
With the price tag soaring to $20billion and a GDP slowing how do they intend to finance the deal?

Except for J20 that would probably enter service after 2017, the rest of the aircraft in PLAF, PAF inventory is no match to MKI. With Pakfa coming after 2017 there is no need for EF or Rafale.

Instead of spending exorbitant amounts on fancy equipment the Govt should focus more on Kaveri engine, development of better Aero engines and spend more on that front.

Finance is not the only thing holding the indigenous defence industry back. No guarantee that money is going to help.

 

[Param]

Finance is not the only thing holding the indigenous defence industry back. No guarantee that money is going to help.

If you are referring to ToT, then what has all the ToT in past half a century done?

I know Finance is not the only problem. But Finance is a big problem holding back R&D.Why would a talented engineering graduate work in a crappy PSU for a meager salary then he can have great opportunities abroad.Money in indegenous R&D is not only for technical stuff but also to retain talent.
People make a hue and cry over the funding for LCA in the past 20 years. But that money is in no way compared to the amount that France invested in the Rafale program.

 

[plugwater]

The circus called MMRCA should be cancelled. GoI should go in for mass production of LCA Mk1 and Mk2, order 40 more Sukhoi Super30s.
With the price tag soaring to $20billion and a GDP slowing how do they intend to finance the deal?

Except for J20 that would probably enter service after 2017, the rest of the aircraft in PLAF, PAF inventory is no match to MKI. With Pakfa coming after 2017 there is no need for EF or Rafale.

Instead of spending exorbitant amounts on fancy equipment the Govt should focus more on Kaveri engine, development of better Aero engines and spend more on that front.

If LCA is not an indigenous aircraft we would be looking to buy aircrafts to replace them right now.

Iaf wont even consider LCA if its not indigenous.

In 2015 we will induct 5th gen(pakfa) and in 2014 3++ gen (LCA), odd isnt it ?

 

[Dovah]

If you are referring to ToT, then what has all the ToT in past half a century done?

I know Finance is not the only problem. But Finance is a big problem holding back R&D.Why would a talented engineering graduate work in a crappy PSU for a meager salary then he can have great opportunities abroad.Money in indegenous R&D is not only for technical stuff but also to retain talent.
People make a hue and cry over the funding for LCA in the past 20 years. But that money is in no way compared to the amount that France invested in the Rafale program.

I'm not talking of ToT its whether the HAL/ADA can deliver in time. Our squadron numbers are depleting, pilots are dying on Migs, we need planes ASAP. Even if we assume that LCA will deliver according to our requirement if funded the question remains whether it would deliver in time?
I'm not against funding the LCA but the MMRCA should stay intact.

 

[Koovie]

If you are referring to ToT, then what has all the ToT in past half a century done?

I know Finance is not the only problem. But Finance is a big problem holding back R&D.Why would a talented engineering graduate work in a crappy PSU for a meager salary then he can have great opportunities abroad.Money in indegenous R&D is not only for technical stuff but also to retain talent.
People make a hue and cry over the funding for LCA in the past 20 years. But that money is in no way compared to the amount that France invested in the Rafale program.

I totally agree with you on the point that we have to support our scientists much more (especially with more money) but right now, the MMRCA is the best we can have and our pilots deserve only the best. And lca is a light aircraft which hasnt the capabilities of any MMRCA contender (except of the Gripen or F 16 perhaps).

 

[Param]

If LCA is not an indigenous aircraft we would be looking to buy aircrafts to replace them right now.

Iaf wont even consider LCA if its not indigenous.

Is LCA inferior to Mig21,27 that are in service? 21 is to be in service till around 2017. 27 is to be in service even much later.

If the IAF is OK with having crappy Mig21 and Mig27 in service for more than decade but not like LCA then there is some thing fishy(not about the plane)

In 2015 we will induct 5th gen(pakfa) and in 2014 3++ gen (LCA), odd isnt it ?

Last I checked it was 2017 for Pakfa in IAF.

So induction of 4+ gen Rafale post 2015 to 2020 is not odd? When other countries will be moving on to 5th gen we will be inducting super expensive 4+gen.

Oil rich Sheikhdoms like UAE and Saudi can afford to splurge their wealth, we cannot and should not.

 

[plugwater]

Thing is even if we pour billions we wont fly our MCA before 2030.

Give the same money to L&T or mahindra or Tata, then see!!

 

[Param]

I'm not talking of ToT its whether the HAL/ADA can deliver in time. Our squadron numbers are depleting, pilots are dying on Migs, we need planes ASAP. Even if we assume that LCA will deliver according to our requirement if funded the question remains whether it would deliver in time?
I'm not against funding the LCA but the MMRCA should stay intact.

The MMrca is not going to arrive in considerable numbers before 2017. LCA production rate can be increased if the Govt and the IAF really want to.

 

[agentperry]

well wise person is that who gets best at the price as less as possible. its not necessary to buy weapon at extortionist and unjustifiable price, this wont give us any added advantage in battle/combat.
also buying useless crap just because it is cheaper than others is also not good because the money so saved wont give any advantage either.

the best thing is to buy what suite our requirement the best, our requirement and not that it performs a1 in an field that you can imagine.

mmrca is the most useless competition now because of DQ of f/a-18. cheap, well equipped and easy to handle for both pilot and ground maintenance staff.
it didnt worked out well in this field, that field. as if you are up against the god, as if this giant su-30 is a ginnie which will automatically reduce its size while it intrudes enemy airspace.

i dont know when people will come out of this cheap mentality that mehenga hai toh acha hai( expensive things are better)?

 

[Dovah]

If the IAF is OK with having crappy Mig21 and Mig27 in service for more than decade but not like LCA then there is some thing fishy(not about the plane)

The Migs are already paid for. And LCA would mean another 30 million per plane. The IAF could do a lot with that money.

So induction of 4+ gen Rafale post 2015 to 2020 is not odd? When other countries will be moving on to 5th gen we will be inducting super expensive 4+gen.

All nations would be 4 gen + 5 Gen. Apart from US, perhaps.

LCA Mk2 can deliver, but if it is as expensive as any imported plane with fewer capabilities, then IAF is right to go with the phoren maal.

 

[Param]

Thing is even if we pour billions we wont fly our MCA before 2030.

Give the same money to L&T or mahindra or Tata, then see!!

MCA or AMCA is a joke as of today and I agree with the 2030 timeframe.
I was only referring to LCA Mk2 and Kaveri.

 

[plugwater]

Is LCA inferior to Mig21,27 that are in service? 21 is to be in service till around 2017. 27 is to be in service even much later.

If the IAF is OK with having crappy Mig21 and Mig27 in service for more than decade but not like LCA then there is some thing fishy(not about the plane)

They are old aircrafts, you cant just dump every one of them into museums!! See the aircrafts IAF inducting and going to induct, LCA stands no chance against them.

Last I checked it was 2017 for Pakfa in IAF.

So induction of 4+ gen Rafale post 2015 to 2020 is not odd? When other countries will be moving on to 5th gen we will be inducting super expensive 4+gen.

We will get Pakfa same time as RuAF. Last i heard LCA is delayed till 2014. Can you tell that for sure we will get LCA by then ? I doubt so!

 

[plugwater]

MCA or AMCA is a joke as of today and I agree with the 2030 timeframe.
I was only referring to LCA Mk2 and Kaveri.

LCA mk2 after 2017 only.

Kaveri is as good as dead.

 

[Dovah]

The MMrca is not going to arrive in considerable numbers before 2017. LCA production rate can be increased if the Govt and the IAF really want to.

But is the LCA capable enough to scrap the MMRCA altogether?
LCA in its current form of 3++ can be mass produced, researching new technologies will add at least 5 years to the production commencement. If we start inducting LCA as a 3++ aircraft to phase out the Migs and cancel the MMRCA, we'd be left with no 4+ gen aircraft apart from the Sukhois by the end of 2015. We are talking about taking on the Chinese here.