India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

The final call! Show your support. Who do you think should Win?

  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 66 51.2%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 63 48.8%

  • Total voters
    129
Status
Not open for further replies.

Galaxy

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
7,086
Likes
3,934
Country flag
The best option according to me is......

BUY 126 Super Hornet direct from U.S. [ S/H will be unique as only U.S./Australia operates] [U.S. was also ready to provide various techs including Tejas MK2 engine and AMLCDs, IRST sensor, Raytheon's RACR AESA-MMR, and tactical self-protection jammers which will decrease the price overall too.]

or

BUY 126 Rafale [ 1 facility in France and 1 HAL, Both will provide 50% each and project will be completed by 2018 when PAK-FA will be inducted] - KSA/U.A.E. both will operate Typhoon so Pak will get some idea and Rafale will be unique for us]

-- In either case, we should order 40-60 more MKI (preferable Super MKI direct from Russia wihich will be inducted by 2015]

My 1st Choice is always Super Hornet and 2nd any of the 2 contender.

Gripen/MIG35 are not high-tech which can give us a big edge - Also, we will be operating Tejas MK2 & MIg29 SMT/UPG. So doesn't make any sense. Just my personal opinion. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Galaxy

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
7,086
Likes
3,934
Country flag
Russia predicts India will cancel MMRCA


December 8, 2011

Victor Komardin, the deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, contends that the two short-listed candidates for India's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition have effectively ruled themselves out by putting too high a price on their fighters.

India's politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.

"Against the backdrop of the [financial] crisis [sweeping the world], it is hard to see how any government would allow such a waste of money, particularly when there are social problems" to deal with, Komardin says. "And there is no imminent threat to India's [sovereignty]. My prediction is that this tender will be canceled." Komardin spoke to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the LIMA Airshow in Langkawi, Malaysia.

India and Russia are close partners on defense. Rosoboronexport's MiG-35 was on the long list for India's MMRCA competition. Komardin says the MiG-35 was withdrawn from the competition before the short list was decided. If India issues a new tender, it creates an opportunity for Russia and the U.S. to rejoin the competition.

Russia predicts India will cancel MMRCA | idrw.org
 

Illusive

New Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Messages
3,691
Likes
7,368
Country flag
Russia wants to desperately renter MRCA. But what if US and Russia rejoins the competition, would the European quit or give us a leverage for price bargain?
 

lemontree

New Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
815
Likes
647
The best option according to me is......

BUY 126 Super Hornet direct from U.S. [ S/H will be unique as only U.S./Australia operates] [U.S. was also ready to provide various techs including Tejas MK2 engine and AMLCDs, IRST sensor, Raytheon's RACR AESA-MMR, and tactical self-protection jammers which will decrease the price overall too.]

or

BUY 126 Rafale [ 1 facility in France and 1 HAL, Both will provide 50% each and project will be completed by 2018 when PAK-FA will be inducted] - KSA/U.A.E. both will operate Typhoon so Pak will get some idea and Rafale will be unique for us]

-- In either case, we should order 40-60 more MKI (preferable Super MKI direct from Russia wihich will be inducted by 2015]

My 1st Choice is always Super Hornet and 2nd any of the 2 contender.

Gripen/MIG35 are not high-tech which can give us a big edge - Also, we will be operating Tejas MK2 & MIg29 SMT/UPG. So doesn't make any sense. Just my personal opinion. :rolleyes:
Some forums state that the F-18 is a good A2G ac but the Rafale is a better ac for A2A role. I assume the IAF is looking for air superiority then it may be the Rafale.
 

Galaxy

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
7,086
Likes
3,934
Country flag
Some forums state that the F-18 is a good A2G ac but the Rafale is a better ac for A2A role. I assume the IAF is looking for air superiority then it may be the Rafale.
We have MKI which is excellent in A2A too. Our potential enemy will be operating J-10,11,17 & 20. F-16 too. MKI + SH combo will give huge edge. Even SH is excellent in A-2-A role. It's basically for Multi role and not only Aiir-Superiority. Super Hornet also have some extra advantage vis-a-vis Raf/Typ. Although Typhoon is little better than Rafale but Since Both U.A.E. and KSA will be operating Typhoon so they can provide to Pakistan for inside knowledge and experience.

Rafale & SH both are good and fulfil our requirement in which SH has little advantage over Rafale.

MoD selected Raf/Typ because U.S. was not providing jets on ToT but they are ready to provide various techs including Tejas MK2 engine and AMLCDs, IRST sensor, Raytheon's RACR AESA-MMR, and tactical self-protection jammers. Also, They will able to deliver 126 SH within 7 years.

If we select Raf/Typ we should chose to Buy ready-made 50% jets from Europe and rest in India for R&D, Experience, Knowledge.
 
Last edited:

nrj

New Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
9,658
Likes
3,911
Country flag
Threatning to cancel tender for better bargain?

F35s are not coming if I know Congress.

F18s rejected in evaluation. Can not go back.

Migs are not production worthy anymore.

Logic says its just bargaining trick since Dassault is desperate for orders to survive. Similar case of EADS because future of EFT program depends on investment coming from orders.

I will salute IAF's courage if they say 'screw this tender, we want more MKIs'

Sent from GT-I9100
 

Zebra

New Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
6,060
Likes
2,303
Country flag
I will love it if GoI go for SH this time .

I do not know how much actual Air Superiority , IAF will achieve with the help of so many Air Superiority aircrafts .
 

Cola

New Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2011
Messages
40
Likes
3
India's politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.
$20b deal, with 50% offset is still a $10b deal.
 

weg

New Member
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
203
Likes
37
$20b deal, with 50% offset is still a $10b deal.
Its a 100% offset, but its still a $20bn deal. With the offset the money comes back into the Indian economy. The icing maybe the ability to integrate Indian technology and arms into the aircraft and sell it to other countries.
 

ace009

Freakin' Fighter fan
New Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
1,662
Likes
526
I think it's all hokum. Just smoke to cover the tracks of kickbacks and secret deals going on with one side.
Any russian report for cancellation is BS.
 

cir

New Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
1,996
Likes
269
22 billion US dollars for 126 freaking 3.5th gen fighters in this time of financial、economic and political hardship。

That's 175 million dollars for a piece of the expensive toy。

India's limited resources should be put to better use。
 
Last edited:

Dovah

Untermensch
New Member
Joined
May 23, 2011
Messages
5,614
Likes
6,793
Country flag
20 billion US dollars for 126 freaking 3.5th gen fighters
What!!! Pakistan is paying you this much for J-20???? Wow, must be party time in Beijing!!!
 

cir

New Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
1,996
Likes
269
A big deal
Dec 08, 2011

The $22 billion (and not $10 billion, as has been reported) deal for the medium-range multi-role combat aircraft (MMCRA) could become a Bofors-like political liability for the ruling Congress Party, if it fails to get it right. Inordinate amounts of political capital and financial resources will be invested in it, and the Indian taxpayer has the right to expect that the numerous contracts will be unlike any contracts signed by the Indian government in the past.

Enough Indian money has been spent without any enduring benefits for the people to be wary of the defence ministry's Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) that will be talking soon with the vendors of the shortlisted aircraft — Rafale and Eurofighter. The PNCs constituted for earlier deals emptied the treasury but settled meagrely for only licensed manufacture of planes. This sort of deal will be unacceptable hereon. Especially because the high stakes for Dassault and EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company N.V.) means India can ask for anything and get it.

The trouble is the status quo serves the interests of all concerned very well. The ruling party at the Centre — the Congress Party, owing to its long years in power, has signed most of the major military acquisitions deals to-date — and its leaders, invariably gain from commissions reportedly channelled their way. The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has scrupulously shied away from developing in-house aircraft design and development skills and competences, values only imported aircraft because, the service brass claim, these are top-of-the-line and reliable. Consequently, it has gone out of its way to stymie indigenous aircraft development programmes. It deliberately killed the Marut-HF-24 Mark II — successor to the Mark I version widely hailed as aerodynamically the best combat aircraft of its time. Created by Kurt Tank, the great German designer of Focke-Wulfe warplanes for the Luftwaffe in the Second World War and hired by Jawaharlal Nehru, the HF-24 programme, had it been nursed to maturity, would have resulted in a flourishing aircraft industry in the country by the 1970s. Learning nothing from that episode, the IAF today is delaying the series production of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This is so, notwithstanding the fact that, avionics-wise, the LCA is at the 4.5 generation level, more capable than any fighter aircraft currently in the IAF inventory.

Supposed to gain from technology transferred to it, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is, like the country, a classic under-achiever. Restricting itself to "production engineering", HAL's capability has calcified at the Meccano-type skill sets-level. Meccano was a toy assembly kit available up until the Sixties for seven to 10 year olds who, following simple instructions, could screw this part on to that one and come up with a crane or some such thing! Meccano no more made the child an engineer than licence manufacturing makes HAL an aircraft design and development Company. But, dog in the manger-like, it is permitted to veto technology being transferred by foreign suppliers to private sector companies that are in far better position to speedily absorb and utilise the advanced technologies, something HAL is manifestly incapable of doing. With all the players in the game eager to retain the present arrangement quo, it is little wonder that India gets shafted every time. The onus is on defence minister A.K. Antony to ensure that this doesn't happen ever again and to instruct the PNC accordingly.

The criteria to judge if the MMRCA deal serves the national interest will be, firstly, whether Indian industry obtains, without hitch, source codes (millions of lines of software) for every aspect of the aircraft as also comprehensive flight control laws. Secondly, the contract ensures that, as a result of the deal, India is hoisted into the cutting edge technology ranks and seeds a globally competitive aerospace industry in the country. And, lastly, India secures access to critical technology outside the combat aircraft field. Contracts will have to be so written as to index large payments against the meeting of technology transfer benchmarks, such as the full and timely delivery of the codes and the laws, and the entrenching of advanced technologies in the country.

By way of offsets, both Dassault peddling Rafale and EADS the Eurofighter, have promised to set up R&D centres here. Their research agendas will have to be competitively fixed, systems of oversight established, and the extent of Indian contributions to the ongoing production and service support of Rafale/Eurofighter for global sales and to any future manned and unmanned aircraft projects, pre-determined.

Dassault and EADS are both willing to part with single crystal blade turbine technology (which allows the aircraft engine to generate more power at higher temperatures), but collaboration in developing the follow-on ceramic turbine blade technology for even more enhanced aircraft engine performance will have to be insisted upon. Manned fighter aircraft, as this analyst has repeatedly stressed, are becoming obsolete. In order to firm up future air warfare options, direct Indian involvement in the advanced Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles, being developed by Dassault in its Neuron project and EADS in its Barracuda programme, is a price both vendors would happily pay to engage India in other high-technology ventures the French company and the European consortium are exploring.

Rafale seems to have an edge, owing to its Active Electronically Scanned Array radar for air-to-air missions, whereas EADS has it only as prototype. This is fortuitous in a way because France can, as an inalienable part of the MMRCA deal, be persuaded to allow Indian nuclear weapons designers access to its Megajoule inertial confinement nuclear fusion facility near Bordeaux, to help rectify the thermonuclear weapon design that proved a dud on testing in 1998, and to work on other fusion weapons configurations. This will not obviate the need for physical tests in the future, but inspire some confidence in the Indian strategic nuclear arsenal in the interim. Such access is a must and it can be extracted, howsoever painfully, from Paris now when it is really desperate to keep a combat aircraft design and development capability alive in France. It is an opportunity not to be missed.

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi
 

trackwhack

New Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
3,757
Likes
2,590
22 billion US dollars for 126 freaking 3.5th gen fighters in this time of financial、economic and political hardship。

That's 175 million dollars for a piece of the expensive toy。

India's limited resources should be put to better use。
The chinis are wetting their pants already :)

3.5 Gen, lol
 

cir

New Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
1,996
Likes
269
What!!! Pakistan is paying you this much for J-20???? Wow, must be party time in Beijing!!!
Your emotional reply to anything critic about India speaks volumes。

Is India run by people as irrational as you seem to be?No wonder India is selling its underpants to buy 126 freaking jets for 22 billions dollars。 175 million dollars each。

Good deal for a country the majority of its citizen live below the poverty line(what's it?Less than 1 dollar a day?)!!
 

cir

New Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
1,996
Likes
269
The chinis are wetting their pants already :)

3.5 Gen, lol
what's wrong?F-22 is a 4th gen plane according to the Americans。

I see you are buying european jets but using Russian convention。 Ok, so it is 126 freeking 4.5 gen jets。 Feel better?
 

Dovah

Untermensch
New Member
Joined
May 23, 2011
Messages
5,614
Likes
6,793
Country flag
Is India run by people as irrational as you seem to be?No wonder India is selling its underpants to buy 126 freaking jets for 22 billions dollars。 175 million dollars each。
175 million is the life cost of the planes which includes the spares and weapons, I think. Not all equipment is use and throw.

Good deal for a country the majority of its citizen live below the poverty line(what's it?Less than 1 dollar a day?)!!
Atleast they're not being run over by Tanks, you live anywhere close to that infamous square btw?

what's wrong?F-22 is a 4th gen plane according to the Americans。
Okay, my apologies, this makes J-20 2nd Gen.
 

Eiffe

New Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Messages
96
Likes
12
what's wrong?F-22 is a 4th gen plane according to the Americans。

I see you are buying european jets but using Russian convention。 Ok, so it is 126 freeking 4.5 gen jets。 Feel better?
he is the same guy who made the joke that j 20 has completed 60 flights in 10 months.. dont take him seriously.:)
 

p2prada

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
Americans, Russians and Europeans follow the same generation designations with little changes. Only the Chinese have their unique designation. This is because they skipped the entire first generation and went on to second. So, the F-22 in the US, Europe and Russia is 5th gen while for China it is 4th gen. For India it is Next Gen or Future Gen. A generation designation may come with time. If we follow the Chinese form then we would consider the F-22 as 3rd(Indian) generation as we skipped 1st and 3rd(US) generation completely. Marut was 2nd and LCA is 4th, AMCA is 5th according to US designation. These would be our 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen.

Strictly speaking we won't follow this Chinese model because even their model is flawed. They worked on the J-9, failed and then started on JF-17 and J-10. They made rip offs of Soviet Jets in the mean time and called it their first and second generation. So, their generation designation is worse than ours if we are talking about indigenous development. Their JF-17 and J-10 which are 4th gen today would actually be China's first gen aircraft while J-20 would be their second generation aircraft. So, Dovakhiin is right when saying J-20 is second gen. :D

Heck, I can prove anything. :p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Articles

Top