India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

The final call! Show your support. Who do you think should Win?

  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 66 51.2%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 63 48.8%

  • Total voters
    129
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SpArK

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'Combat aircraft contest not over'







Ajai Shukla :argh: / Linkoping/ Sweden December 05, 2011, 0:13 IST






There are celebrations at Linkoping, the home of the Gripen NG fighter, which is barely two hours from Stockholm in one of Sweden's ultra-friendly inter-city trains. On Tuesday, the Swiss government announced its selection of the Gripen fighter for the Swiss Air Force, turning away the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.


"If confirmed, a win in Switzerland (according to the Swiss constitution, this might even require a national referendum) will provide a much-needed boost to Saab's status as a fighter manufacturer, after its Gripen was eliminated in another high-profile contest in India," said respected aviation magazine, Flight Global.




India's has decided differently, short-listing the Typhoon and Rafale over the Gripen NG in New Delhi's ongoing selection of 126 medium, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). But, visiting Linkoping, Business Standard sees little despondency. With India's defence ministry (MoD) uncomfortable with how it might have to double its $10.5 billion allocation for those heavy fighters, Gripen is not ruling itself out of the MMRCA competition.




"It's not over till it's over," says Eddy de la Motte, Head of Gripen Export. "We have been and are still confident that Gripen is the perfect match for the IAF as well as for the Indian defence and aviation industry."


Eddy de la Motte also points out that Gripen has provided details of its Sea Gripen fighter (which is still being developed) in response to an Indian Navy's enquiry.


Executives in Linkoping all insist that the Gripen NG — the New Generation version of the current Gripen-D fighter —would provide India with the fighter it needs for a far cheaper procurement and operating cost. They say it would be one-third the cost of the Typhoon and the Rafale, calculated on a "through-life" basis.


We tour the Linkoping facility, which was set up in 1930, when Sweden was unable to buy fighters because of the embargoes that preceded World War II. Over the next eight decades, a fierce focus on aerospace R&D — 20 per cent of revenues to back into research — has driven the development of world-beating aircraft at Linkoping. These include the Saab-21A in 1945 (the world's first aircraft with an ejection seat); the Saab 29 Tunnan (the first aircraft with swept wings); and the Viggen, which the Indian Air Force had selected in the 1970s as a ground strike aircraft. But an angry Washington, seething from India's nuclear experiment in Pokhran, vetoed the supply of its American-origin engines to India. The IAF bought the Jaguar instead.


Today, Linkoping is dedicated to the Gripen. Over 200 Gripens currently fly with five air forces — Sweden, South Africa, Thailand, Czech Republic and Hungary — and Switzerland will be the sixth. Gripen is also a leading contender (along with the Rafale) in the Brazilian Air Force's purchase of medium fighters.


But India demanded a more capable aircraft than the current Gripen-D; and Saab offered its futuristic Gripen NG fighter, of which only a single prototype exists.





Housed in a secluded hangar, the Gripen NG is discernably bigger than the Gripen-D. The earlier Gripen fighters were light, agile fighters, which could land and take off from 800-metre stretches of regular highway. A carefully inbuilt ability to be refuelled and rearmed within just 10 minutes of landing allowed a small number of Gripen-Ds to fly as many sorties as a significantly larger number of heavier-maintenance fighters. But, along with low maintenance, India wanted a heavier fighter, with more weaponry and a longer range and endurance. Enter the Gripen NG.


"The NG is essentially a Mark III Gripen fighter. The Gripen A/B, a 12-tonne light fighter, was the Mark I. This went up to 14-tonnes in the Gripen C/D, which can be considered the Mark II. Our latest development, the Gripen NG, will be a 16.5 tonne medium fighter," explains de la Motte.





That extra weight includes an additional tonne of fuel. Along with two 450-gallon fuel pods on the wings, this allows the Gripen NG to fly a staggering 4,100 kilometres. On internal fuel alone, it flies 2,500 kilometres. That exceeds the range of much bigger aircraft like the Typhoon.


Moving the undercarriage to the wings for enlarging the fuel tanks also created space for two additional hard points (on which weapons are mounted). The Gripen NG now has ten stations, extraordinary for a 16-tonne fighter. Flying into combat, it would typically carry two IRIS-T air-to-air missiles on its wingtips, which can shoot down enemy aircraft 25 kilometres away; two Meteor beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles, deadly accurate at ranges in excess of 100 kilometres; two fuel pods with 900 gallons of fuel; three GBU-12 precision-guided bombs for ground targets; and a reconnaissance pod.


To power all this weight, the Gripen-D's General Electric F-404 engine is being replaced with the advanced F-414 engine, an upgrade that is common to India's Tejas fighter. With thrust increased from 18,000 pounds to 22,000 pounds, the Gripen NG already super-cruises, or flies supersonic in economy mode.


But the NG's real strength is the cockpit, which is built to delight a fighter pilot. Using Saab's acknowledged data link capability, information is drawn from multiple sensors inside and outside the aircraft, including satellites. A terabyte-capacity computer screens out superfluous information, providing the pilot only the best input of each category. This allows him to concentrate on battle, rather than handling information.


And finally, the pilot has satellite communications, permitting him to communicate across the globe. In a sensitive situation — such as an attack that could start, or escalate a war, or even on a nuclear strike mission — the pilot might need to take permission before launching weapons. This could be done over the satellite radio.


"During the Indian trials, when the Gripen successfully took off from Leh, the pilot called Linkoping on the satellite radio to say all is well," said one of the Gripen NG pilots.



'Combat aircraft contest not over'


After the failed campaign of F-35 , Shuklaji is back wth gripen argument.


It would be sensible to look into this posibility ( wont happen as we know) rather than replying it as PR job , like i just did.
 

Adux

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There is some value to his arguement regarding the cost : He says either you buy a cheap and effective aircraft which might be 5-10% less in capability than the Rafale's and Typhoon, and the money thus saved can be used for next projects; or you wait for a bit more time and buy a bit more expensive 5th generation, which will serve you longer and take on threats. There is credence to his argument, especially after this article. He is pushing for both F-35 and Gripen NG, which would mean, he is talking for value for money. Perfectly understandable argument.
 

p2prada

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Problem is getting the F-35 and it's entire gamut of capabilities is not certain. The only aspect riding on the F-35 is it's superiority in avionics as compared to any other fighter. But if this is limited or even denied, then it absolutely becomes a lemon.

The issue with Gripen NG is not endurance, sensor fusion, thrust, aerodynamics or serviceability, the problem is there is only so much you can do with a 10 ton engine as compared to 15 to 18 tons of power. The Gripen's radar is small and no doubt it will lack in EW capability.

Gripen really depends on what IAF wants the MKIs to do. If the MKIs are given the task of air superiority,DPS and initial SEAD missions then Gripen stands a chance. If IAF wants MKI to focus on Air superiority, DPS and a secondary air interdiction mission, then Gripen has no chance because handling SEAD against China's S-300 systems isn't going to be easy.

Rafale and EF can balance out all aspects. They can do air superiority, DPS as well as SEAD which can match the MKI. This allows the IAF to be more flexible while providing more capability. The choice has been good. Hopefully it is carried out without any hiccups. Based on how things have been going till date for MRCA, F-35 and Gripen stand no chance.
 

weg

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There is some value to his arguement regarding the cost : He says either you buy a cheap and effective aircraft which might be 5-10% less in capability than the Rafale's and Typhoon, and the money thus saved can be used for next projects;
In war there is no 5% less capable, just 100% dead.

If you look at conflicts, tanks, ships or aircraft in the past the superior equipment doesn't win 5% more, it destroys 100% of the enemy. Look at the kill ratio between the Arab/Israel wars its 10 or 20:1.

If, like Switzerland, your air force operated office hours only and the possibility of war doesn't exist, then getting a patrol aircraft with limited capabilities is ok.

or you wait for a bit more time and buy a bit more expensive 5th generation,
Time isn't something India has, the F-35 is a decade away.
 

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French Rafale Leads MMRCA Race With Lower Unit Flyaway Cost



French Dassault Rafale fighter is leading the race with lower "unit flyaway cost" when compared to the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon. Direct acquisition costs of both fighter jets fall in the $80-$110 million range. Indian Air Force will also consider "life-cycle costs" (overall operating for 40 year or 6,000 hours) before making its final decision.

Indian defense ministry has announced that level of the transfer of technology (ToT) and offsets will also be important factor in the final decision. India will purchase first 18 fighter jets directly from the manufacturer in a flyaway condition, while the rest of the 108 fighter jets will be produced in by the Indian aerospace giant
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).....
 

sathya

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old news..but still hols good
MMRCA-Typhoon leads the race -Telegraph
OCTOBER 31, 2011

RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7bn arms deal – Telegraph RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph

The above report suggests that purely on technical terms, Eurofigher is ahead in MMRCA race.

"There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead,"

The Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs but the Typhoon consortium is confidant that it will be cheaper than it's competitors over the life of it's deployment.

The report adds "Winning the contract would be a jobs boost not just for BAE Systems' Warton plant in Lancashire but also the Rolls-Royce factory in Bristol, where its EuroJet 200 engines are built. It would also benefit 300 small and medium enterprises throughout Britain.
 
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arundo

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No, those charts are wrong, someone faked them, probably the French.

Piloten wollen Gripen abschiessen - Schweiz: Standard - bazonline.ch

The Swiss choose the Gripen because it was better than the baseline requirement and the cheapest. It didn't need to be the best, just good enough. The Swizz airforce only operates 9-5 during weekdays, they are not a country who is ever going to war.
sorry, but you're not in the position to say if the chart was faked or not.
Gripen was initially not better than the baseline requirements.. This was confirmed by several people involved in the evaluation process, I do not know why you are not citing an article from the same newspaper, which reported from the Armasuisse evaluation.
Kampfjet Gripen mit unbefriedigenden Noten - Schweiz: Standard - bazonline.ch

quote from the Armasuisse report (basler zeitung)
"Der Rafale ist das einzige Flugzeug, welches die Anforderungen der Luftwaffe in allen Einsatzarten erfüllt hat."

that should be clear enough. I couldn't find any source writing that all those information are fake, but only sources that announced an investigation for indiscretion (as this report was very confident according to the Swiss authorities)
 

ace009

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sorry, but you're not in the position to say if the chart was faked or not.
Gripen was initially not better than the baseline requirements.. This was confirmed by several people involved in the evaluation process, I do not know why you are not citing an article from the same newspaper, which reported from the Armasuisse evaluation.
Kampfjet Gripen mit unbefriedigenden Noten - Schweiz: Standard - bazonline.ch

quote from the Armasuisse report (basler zeitung)
"Der Rafale ist das einzige Flugzeug, welches die Anforderungen der Luftwaffe in allen Einsatzarten erfüllt hat."

that should be clear enough. I couldn't find any source writing that all those information are fake, but only sources that announced an investigation for indiscretion (as this report was very confident according to the Swiss authorities)
So then, why did the Swiss (generally a conservative lot), spend time/ money to evaluate 4 aircraft, fail the Gripen in it's analysis and then go ahead and buy it?
 

p2prada

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So then, why did the Swiss (generally a conservative lot), spend time/ money to evaluate 4 aircraft, fail the Gripen in it's analysis and then go ahead and buy it?
Gripen did not fail.

There were a set number of parameters and all aircraft surpassed the requirements. Unlike the Indian deal where only 2 aircraft were shortlisted and the cheapest will be chosen, the Swiss chose the cheapest among all the aircraft which passed and skipped a step in the process.

Their service chiefs aren't happy, but they can't complain, [sarcasm]not when Assange is going to produce all the Indian names with Swiss bank accounts. All the withdrawals will make the Swiss very poor.[/sarcasm]
 

SpArK

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Gripen did not fail.

There were a set number of parameters and all aircraft surpassed the requirements. Unlike the Indian deal where only 2 aircraft were shortlisted and the cheapest will be chosen, the Swiss chose the cheapest among all the aircraft which passed and skipped a step in the process.

Their service chiefs aren't happy, but they can't complain, [sarcasm]not when Assange is going to produce all the Indian names with Swiss bank accounts. All the withdrawals will make the Swiss very poor.[/sarcasm]
Gripen evaluated in Swiss is C/D unlik in Indian competition.
 

ace009

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Gripen did not fail.

There were a set number of parameters and all aircraft surpassed the requirements. Unlike the Indian deal where only 2 aircraft were shortlisted and the cheapest will be chosen, the Swiss chose the cheapest among all the aircraft which passed and skipped a step in the process.

Their service chiefs aren't happy, but they can't complain, [sarcasm]not when Assange is going to produce all the Indian names with Swiss bank accounts. All the withdrawals will make the Swiss very poor.[/sarcasm]
Did you read the report a few pages before? The Swiss airforce report clearly stated that the Gripen DID NOT meet the requirements.
 

p2prada

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Did you read the report a few pages before? The Swiss airforce report clearly stated that the Gripen DID NOT meet the requirements.
Gripen did not fail tests. Gripen was merely the lowest performer. Compared to Rafale it was judged insufficient. Logical isn't it?

But yeah! Technically the tests were entirely unnecessary for the Swiss evaluations. The Swiss air force is pissed off. So, don't believe every report that comes from them. USAF is doing the same for more F-22s.
 

arundo

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Gripen did not fail tests. Gripen was merely the lowest performer. Compared to Rafale it was judged insufficient. Logical isn't it?

But yeah! Technically the tests were entirely unnecessary for the Swiss evaluations. The Swiss air force is pissed off. So, don't believe every report that comes from them. USAF is doing the same for more F-22s.
According to Swiss Press (for example Basler Zeitung), Gripen performed below the mimimum requirements als well in air to air as in air to ground... and "Gripen habe in allen Anforderungsbereichen die Minimalziele nicht erreicht" - translation: Gripen did not meet the minimum level in any range of requirements..
Curiously no Swiss official denied the released evaluation results... It was just said, that the Gripen would be good enough for the concrete tasks it will have to perform.

It seems that finally the Swiss authorities paid more attention to financial aspects than to performance. Furthermore, the Swiss public owned defense company RUAG takes most benefits from a cooperation with SAAB. Finally, the fact that there are troubled relationships with both the French and the German could have had an influence on the decision.
 

weg

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According to Swiss Press
I prefer to ignore anonymous/unqualified/vested interests when it comes to this sort of thing. I prefer to beleive what's true beyond doubt - the Swiss choose the Gripen, everything else is bullshit.
 

p2prada

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I hardly think that's true. Best reports suggest Gripen D qualified for Indian MRCA. IAF officials who flew the D itself said Gripen in it's current form qualifies let alone the NG version.
 

arundo

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I prefer to ignore anonymous/unqualified/vested interests when it comes to this sort of thing. I prefer to beleive what's true beyond doubt - the Swiss choose the Gripen, everything else is bullshit.
How can you say that the report of Armasuisse or the article from Basler Zeitung, NZZ, Tagesanzeiger, which are reputed Swiss newspapers, are anonymous/unqualified/vested?
I repeat that no Swiss official denied the information... and that they started an investigation to find the source that gave that confidential information to the press.

I don't think that it makes sense to discuss whether CH chose the Gripen or not, since it is a fact. However, what makes more sense is to debate about the reasons of the choice and about the reasons of making a 8 million CHF technical evaluation and finally chosing the poorest performer.

Furthermore the fact that the Rafale performed better than the Typhoon in the Armasuisse evaluation (but also in the Netherlands, in South Corea, in Singapore or in Brazil) is interesting in view of the upcoming MMRCA decision.
 

p2prada

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Furthermore the fact that the Rafale performed better than the Typhoon in the Armasuisse evaluation (but also in the Netherlands, in South Corea, in Singapore or in Brazil) is interesting in view of the upcoming MMRCA decision.
It is quite impressive that Rafale has been consistently on the top in all those evaluations. IAF wants Rafale as well.
 
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