India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[Zebra]

Swiss have to pay in Swedish Krona ( SEK ) for Gripen NG ?

Haw many zeros are there in one Billion SEK , nine OR twelve ?

I saw an article that Swiss have to pay 1 Billion SEK for each Gripen NG . So trying to figher out , how much in US $ as per today's currency rates ,

1 SEK = 0.13 US$
or
1 US$ = 6.04 SEK .

 

[Koovie]

so the decision is going to be published next week right?

 

[arundo]

so the decision is going to be published next week right?

...already?

 

[arundo]

IAF wants Rafale as well.

This is interesting, do you have some sources confirming this?
I do not know how Rafale performed vs. Typhoon in the IAF technical evaluation, according to French sources it was Rafale, according to British sources it seems to be Typhoon ;-).. Are there some sources in India?

In my opinion there is a lot that speaks for Rafale:

- Full developed omnirole capabilities (Typhoon not earlier than 2018... )
- Impressive record in the Libya campaign
- Navalized version available
- Probably less expensive and causing less costs (Mirage 2000 Synergies in terms of infrastructure, facilities and training, maybe less operting costs); the 2,2 billion mirage upgrade deal could be an additional joker in the negotiations
- Already Aesa radar in production at Thales
- Performed better in several technical evaluations, according to the Swiss even in a2a
- Possibly easier technology transfer, as it has almost only French technology vs. the technology of 4 countries + a part of US technology in the Typhoon case
- Good working military cooperation between both countries existing already

There is only the engine that has less power, but still performes well. The advantage is that it is lighter and can be replaced within 2 hrs. A new, more powerful M-88 engine could be developed by SNECMA.
The political and economic power of the 4 nations of the consortium could be another pro for the Typhoon.

 

[p2prada]

This is interesting, do you have some sources confirming this?

This came from journo talks with IAF personnel. There are a few reports here and there which quote IAF pilots and their affinity for Rafale. Sources are there, but difficult to look over using Google.

One aspect is quite well established with the Swiss and Dutch evaluations. The SH, F-16 and Gripen were inferior to Rafale and EF by a wide margin. Also, the F-15SG in Singapore was inferior to Rafale, but the deal went to the F-15 because of comparatively lower costs and the longer waiting period for Rafale. Timeline mattered during the Korean deal as well.

I do not know how Rafale performed vs. Typhoon in the IAF technical evaluation, according to French sources it was Rafale, according to British sources it seems to be Typhoon ;-).. Are there some sources in India?

The same. There are some sources which claim Typhoon is ahead while some sources claim Rafale is ahead. We will eventually get to know something, hopefully, by next week or the one after that.

- Full developed omnirole capabilities (Typhoon not earlier than 2018... )
- Impressive record in the Libya campaign
- Navalized version available
- Probably less expensive and causing less costs (Mirage 2000 Synergies in terms of infrastructure, facilities and training, maybe less operting costs); the 2,2 billion mirage upgrade deal could be an additional joker in the negotiations
- Already Aesa radar in production at Thales
- Performed better in several technical evaluations, according to the Swiss even in a2a
- Possibly easier technology transfer, as it has almost only French technology vs. the technology of 4 countries + a part of US technology in the Typhoon case
- Good working military cooperation between both countries existing already

Rafale has the upper hand when it comes to ease of dealing and maybe even ToT. EF has the upper hand in offsets and industrial clauses. So, it is quite balanced.

The Rafale's final production AESA is still not ready. The current one is too small. There is another radar with 1000+ modules in the works. Quite like the Mig-35 where Phazatron showed one with 600 odd modules but the one going on Mig-35 would be a 1000+ module radar.

There is only the engine that has less power, but still performes well. The advantage is that it is lighter and can be replaced within 2 hrs. A new, more powerful M-88 engine could be developed by SNECMA.

The M-88 is quite adequate. The T/W ratio of Rafale and EF is quite similar in most conditions. A more powerful engine is preferable on the Rafale.

The political and economic power of the 4 nations of the consortium could be another pro for the Typhoon.

This is the biggest advantage by far.

 

[weg]

I don't think that it makes sense to discuss whether CH chose the Gripen or not, since it is a fact. However, what makes more sense is to debate about the reasons of the choice and about the reasons of making a 8 million CHF technical evaluation and finally chosing the poorest performer.

Furthermore the fact that the Rafale performed better than the Typhoon in the Armasuisse evaluation (but also in the Netherlands, in South Corea, in Singapore or in Brazil) is interesting in view of the upcoming MMRCA decision.

You can debate all you like, but you cannot debate if you base your discussion on facts that are suspect. I find it very difficult to beleive that the Rafale is getting all these wonderful reports yet the air-forces repeatedly choose not to buy it.

I do not know how Rafale performed vs. Typhoon in the IAF technical evaluation, according to French sources it was Rafale, according to British sources it seems to be Typhoon ;-)..

Exactly, nobody who knows is going to talk about it.

 

[arundo]

You can debate all you like, but you cannot debate if you base your discussion on facts that are suspect. I find it very difficult to beleive that the Rafale is getting all these wonderful reports yet the air-forces repeatedly choose not to buy it.

Sorry, but it is is a little short if you say that Swiss newspaper articles (and Swiss official's confirmations) or Armasuisse reports are doubtful, just because Rafale performs best (by far)? You do not seem to have anything concrete in hand to deny the information.. You have no source at all.
That Rafale came in more final rounds than EF is quite easy to google. It is a fact, that EF was eliminated very early in Brazil, South Corea, Singapore and the Netherlands... and that Rafale was involved in the final decisions.

The two export "successes" that Typhoon had (Austria, Saudi Arabia) were both related to corruption (pls google, there is enough). The only contest the Typhoon won was Austria, where neither mirage nor rafale were in the competition. There was no contest in Saudi Arabia, as this market "belongs" to EADS (UK), they always buy british and already had the Tornado.

Needless to say, that final decisions (and as a matter of a fact this is where rafale was more often involved than EF and this is after technical evaluation) are almost never technical, but based on political, financial, economic logistics or geo-strategic considerations.
p2prda quoted a few examples of considerations, pls see above.

 

[Koovie]

...already?

according to the latest statement of the IAF chief in mid dec

EDIT: hopefully 2011 :shocked:

 

[arundo]

@p2prda

Thales Begins Rafale AESA Production

 

[Koovie]

@p2prda

Thales Begins Rafale AESA Production

oh and please introduce yourself in the introduction dorum first

 

[p2prada]

@p2prda

Thales Begins Rafale AESA Production

Yes. And some sources seem to indicate we are getting 1000+ modules for Rafale. Considering GaAlAs modules give no more than 5-7W peak, we can say the RBE-2AA will be as powerful as Bars and it's capability will match what was announced on Mig-35. The CAESAR is meant to exceed this though. But both will fall short of Bars AESA, that's what we know or have speculated. It's a different ballgame if Silicon Carbide or Gallium Nitride is used. Both will exceed Bars PESA in most modes. Surpassing a 950mm antenna while using only 650-750mm antennas is quite a big deal. So, it's good for both aircraft.

We will get to know what's coming to us only after 2 or 3 years. Thales' director was talking about how their radar will be the most advanced radar available for export in a few years. So, keeping our fingers crossed.

 

[SpArK]

France warns of end of Rafale fighter jet production



​

PARIS: France warned on Wednesday that defence giant Dassault would halt production of its Rafale multirole fighter jet if it remains unable to sell any abroad.


"If Dassault doesn't sell any Rafales abroad, the production line... will be stopped" once France has received the 180 aircraft it has ordered, Defence Minister Gerard Longuet told a small group of journalists including AFP.


France considers the twin-motor delta-wing Rafale a state-of-the-art warplane but has struggled to find any foreign buyers to support the project that has so far cost over 40 billion euros (53 billion dollars).


Longuet said maintenance arrangements would continue for all completed aircraft and that French Rafale orders alone would keep the production line going until 2018 "at least".


Then "it will be over for the manufacturer, not for the user," he said of the plane that has been deployed in NATO operations in Afghanistan and Libya


It is mainly built by Dasault, electronics company Thales and motor manufacturer Snecma, part of the Safran group, but a total of over 1,500 French companies are involved in the programme.


Longuet insisted that the Rafale remained in competition with European manufacturer EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a large Indian contract and that "we are in tough negotiations with the United Arab Emirates".


However, the UAE, which was said to be in final talks with France to buy 60 Rafales, said last month that the French offer was unworkable and uncompetitive.


A US cable leaked by Wikileaks in 2010 quoted King Hamad of Bahrain as mocking the Rafale as "yesterday's technology".


Switzerland in November became the latest country to choose another fighter over the Rafale, opting for the Swedish-made Saab Gripen to replace its ageing fleet.


The Rafale and Typhoon are in the final stage of a massive duel to meet India's 126-unit medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement. Final bids were opened earlier last month, with a decision possible within weeks.


Asked why Dassault was having trouble selling the plane abroad, Longuet said the multirole jet was "more expensive than American planes which are produced in much greater numbers."


"While we order 200 Rafales for a 10-15 year programme, the Americans make 3,000 aircraft," he said.


"However, for top level missions of high military value, the Rafale is undeniably well-positioned."


Development of the Rafale began in the 1980s, with a first prototype built in 1991. The first plane for delivery to the French military rolled off the production line in 1998.


- AFP/de



France warns of end of Rafale fighter jet production - Channel NewsAsia

 

[ace009]

I find it funny that India is now the savior of the combat aircraft manufacturing industries in Europe, the same country that they had sanctioned in 1998 and refused to help in defense procurement.

I hope the results are out next week.

 

[Armand2REP]

The ultimatum was given to Dassault to quit relying on state orders or face extinction. The family is too complacent thinking taxpayers will keep them afloat when they don't do anything to be competitive.

 

[Galaxy]

India May Cancel Fighter Competition


LANGKAWI, Malaysia — Victor Komardin, the deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, contends that the two short-listed candidates for India's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition have effectively ruled themselves out by putting too high a price on their fighters.

India's politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.

"Against the backdrop of the [financial] crisis [sweeping the world], it is hard to see how any government would allow such a waste of money, particularly when there are social problems" to deal with, Komardin says. "And there is no imminent threat to India's [sovereignty]. My prediction is that this tender will be canceled." Komardin spoke to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the LIMA Airshow in Langkawi, Malaysia.

India and Russia are close partners on defense. Rosoboronexport's MiG-35 was on the long list for India's MMRCA competition. Komardin says the MiG-35 was withdrawn from the competition before the short list was decided. If India issues a new tender, it creates an opportunity for Russia and the U.S. to rejoin the competition.

India May Cancel Fighter Competition | AVIATION WEEK

 

[Galaxy]

Dassault's Rafale Fighter Jet Dealt Blow by French Minister


By Andrea Rothman | December 07, 2011 2:58 PM EST

Dassault Aviation SA (AM)'s Rafale combat jet, which hasn't won a single export order after 11 years of flying for the French military, was dealt a blow from some unusual quarters: the French government.

Defense Minister Gerard Longuet said in an interview today on LCP television that unless the jet finds a buyer abroad, the government will quit funding its production, effectively killing the programme.

"If Dassault doesn't sell the Rafale abroad, the production line will be stopped," Longuet said. The aircraft " "is more expensive than its rival U.S. plane, which is amortized over a much longer period," he said. Longuet didn't specify when the line would be stopped.

Over the last decade, Dassault has consistently lost out in competitions in countries including Singapore, South Korea, Morocco, and last week, Switzerland. Although it has been producing a plane a month for the French military, without export orders to help pay the cost of production, its funding burden falls entirely on France.

Longuet's comments can only hurt efforts to sell the Plane overseas, one analyst said. Dassault couldn't immediately be reached for comment.

"The comments are the equivalent of hammering a stake into the program," said Richard Aboulafia, vice president of the Teal Group, a Fairfax, Virginia consulting company. "This is catastrophic, it's poorly thought out, and one wonders what the motivation was for saying it."

Uncompetitive Offering

Dassault had appeared poised to win an order from the United Arab Emirates until last month, when Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan said Dassault's Rafale offering was uncompetitive.

"Unfortunately, Dassault doesn't realize that political will and all the diplomatic efforts cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," Sheikh Mohammed, who is also deputy supreme commander of the U.A.E.'s armed forces, said in a statement issued by state-run news agency WAM.

Dassault is a finalist with the Eurofighter in competing to sell India 126 warplanes. India has said it may announce its choice by yearend.

"I thought Dassault still had a shot at winning in the UAE, despite the back and forth, and in India, they may not have the majority chance, but they still had a shot at it," Aboulafia said. "But why would any country buy a program that France doesn't want?"

The planemaker is controlled by the Dassault family's Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault, which owns a 50.55 percent stake. European Aeronautic Defence & Space, the parent of the Airbus SAS commercial jets, owns 46.3 percent and the public holds the rest.

Bloomberg

 

[SpArK]

Dassaullt should look at longer time plans ad start bringing the price downs.

 

[SpArK]

India May Cancel Fighter Competition


LANGKAWI, Malaysia — Victor Komardin, the deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, contends that the two short-listed candidates for India's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition have effectively ruled themselves out by putting too high a price on their fighters.

India's politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.

"Against the backdrop of the [financial] crisis [sweeping the world], it is hard to see how any government would allow such a waste of money, particularly when there are social problems" to deal with, Komardin says. "And there is no imminent threat to India's [sovereignty]. My prediction is that this tender will be canceled." Komardin spoke to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the LIMA Airshow in Langkawi, Malaysia.

India and Russia are close partners on defense. Rosoboronexport's MiG-35 was on the long list for India's MMRCA competition. Komardin says the MiG-35 was withdrawn from the competition before the short list was decided. If India issues a new tender, it creates an opportunity for Russia and the U.S. to rejoin the competition.

India May Cancel Fighter Competition | AVIATION WEEK

Gripen? F-18? Mig??

 

[nitesh]

India May Cancel Fighter Competition

Quite possible, only some areas remaining where we need to catch up, mainly engine. But with MKI engine getting done from ground up, some help is already in there. Radar is an area where we are catching up, regarding EW, if we remember col shukla blog, he mentioned PV 3 is getting modified for EW role. Now weapons package. We are happy with R 73, can work with R 77 and Derby for time being, and let Astra mature. With PAK FA coming online, we will be having more choices. I think lot of calculation going on about the feasibility of such a huge deal. As MKI orders are beefed up, and Mirage and MiG29 getting upgraded, 99 GE 414 on order, it seems IAF may be looking for settling with MKI, upgraded planes, LCA combo, and let PAK FA arrive.

 

[SpArK]

Cost of aircraft can go down, says Eurofighter

Eurofighter's director for its Typhoon Malaysia programme was responding to negative news reports that the multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) was too costly.

"Our approach is to provide a figure... this can go down later (depending on what the requirements are)," he said at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace exhibition.

Malin said other offers might appear cheaper but might not have the same complete package as that being offered by Eurofighter for the Typhoon. He added that the price per aircraft could also be lowered depending on the number of aircraft ordered.

"You can say that this is the only 'next generation' fighter in the world right now," he said.

Recent news reports had placed the price of each aircraft at up to RM3 billion, prompting calls from various quarters to ditch the Typhoon from the shortlist of planes to eventually replace the Royal Malaysian Air Force's fleet of Russian-made MiG-29N Fulcrum air superiority fighters. Others said to be on the shortlist are Dassault Aviation's Rafale, Saab's JAS-39 Gripen, Sukhoi's SU-35E Flanker and the Boeing F/A-18EF Super Hornet.


(The SU-35 is an upgraded version of the RMAF's SU-30MKM, while the Super Hornet is the latest version of the air force's F/A-18D Hornets.)
The Typhoon, Rafale and Super Hornet are all taking part in the airshow at this year's Lima.
Malin, while admitting the cost may be high for the Typhoon, would not however divulge the actual price.


He said Eurofighter had been meeting RMAF officials over the offer, adding that it had also met the Malaysian Investment Development Authority (Mida) and the Malaysian Industry-Government Group for High Technology (Might).


IAN Malin had this to say, "Compare apples with apples. We have the full package."


Meeting Mida and Might officials would be a must for aerospace industry players wanting to push their products to the government as Malaysia requires off-set programmes for any deal.


Malin said three RMAF pilots had conducted familiarisation flights when Typhoon aircraft took part in last month's Five Power Defence Agreement (FPDA) exercise.


(The FPDA is an agreement between Malaysia, Singapore, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand which guarantees that the latter three would come to the aid of the first two should they come under attack.)


Meanwhile, Wing Commander Anthony "Foxy" Gregory of the British Royal Air Force said the Typhoon had performed admirably during the recent North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato) operation in Libya.


He said 10 RAF and a number of Italian Air Force Typhoons had seen action in Libya, with the British aircraft alone having flown more than 700 sorties involving more than 3,000 flying hours.


Gregory said the British Typhoons achieved 97 per cent of the tasks set out for them, with the only failures coming not from the lack of capability of the aircraft but because of external factors such as weather.


The RAF squadron scored a 99 per cent success rate against fixed targets and a 98 per cent success rate against mobile targets.
"This aircraft has unmatched flight performance and carefree handling. It is easy to use and has a fully-integrated weapons system."
Gregory said Typhoon pilots had coined a term -- the "Typhoon Grin" -- for the smile each pilot has on his face after he flies the aircraft.
The Typhoon is now on the rolls of several European air forces. India and Japan are evaluating the aircraft for their MRCA programmes and are reported to be close to making a decision.
Apart from Malaysia, the company is also aiming to push the aircraft to the Gulf states and other air forces in Europe.





Read more: 'Typhoon package is the best deal' - Top News - New Straits Times 'Typhoon package is the best deal' - Top News - New Straits Times​