India-China Border conflict

[vidhwanshak]

i disagree with this view. it can't be the case that you start with the premise, it must be our fault to do things our way within our sovereign territory under our control.

Just want to quote an instance :
India has a claim till F8 but for some reasons it allowed China to build roads till F4. The sentiments among the ruling class was that if we allow China to build roads on our claimed territory then they would allow us to build roads on our territory which they don't claim but our babus were very wrong.

 

[mokoman]

i disagree with this view. it can't be the case that you start with the premise, it must be our fault to do things our way within our sovereign territory under our control.

wasnt talking about fairness or whats right . they see balance shifting and they act.

problem is chinese have upper hand in infra here , should have been more careful in lakadh .

Just want to quote an instance :
India has a claim till F8 but for some reasons it allowed China to build roads till F4. The sentiments among the ruling class was that if we allow China to build roads on our claimed territory then they would allow us to build roads on our territory which they don't claim but our babus were very wrong.

we didnt allow anything , they build the road while kargil war was going on .

 

[mist_consecutive]

challenging china by building that feeder road in galwan valley was big mistake , govt and that china study group had zero clue chinese will push back hard.

possible there will be another repeat of same in AP .

Coconut hit your head on way back home ?

wasnt talking about fairness or whats right . they see balance shifting and they act.

problem is chinese have upper hand in infra here , should have been more careful in lakadh .

We have to start somewhere right ?, or we chicken out coz China will attack ? How does one be more careful about building basic infrastructure on our own territory ?

 

[mokoman]

Coconut hit your head on way back home ?



We have to start somewhere right ?, or we chicken out coz China will attack ? How does one be more careful about building basic infrastructure on our own territory ?

how to be careful ? , build roads everywhere else , galwan valley / roads upto touching lac very last .

Coconut hit your head on way back home ?

what ?

 

[Azaad]

cutoff year for availability in 2029-30 is either 2023 or 24, whatever in pipeline by this cutoff year is what will be available for 2029-30. after the procurement, there is induction and training period as well. if it is a new equipment, forces will have to train to the level that the equipment becomes their second nature.

standard delivery schedule is 3-5 years for large equipment and orders.
for infantry, 6 lakh ak-203 on order, their delivery schedule is 10 years from 2023.

have expectations accordingly.

Everything can be sped up & ways found to circumvent obstacles if the will is there. Reason for 10 yr delay in delivery of Ak-203 was principally on account of disputes in ToT & localisation of components among OTHER issues including the war in Ukraine.

For eg - GoI can even now go in for a G2G deal for 36 nos Rafale for which they've created infrastructure & more importantly paid for it perhaps even enhancing the qty to 54 nos & having combined it with the 26 nos of the IN can negotiate a better package with Dassault getting them to open up a line in MIHAN - Nagpur as well with the promise of a further order in tranches for the IAF & IN .

Will they do it ? Absolutely not.

This is precisely the reason I mentioned that both the MoD & the armed forces including the PMO are on the same page as far as the threat perception from China is concerned.

Sometime back I was reading on how Putin blundered his way into the Ukraine war for he was surrounded by yes men who wouldn't dare cross him & there's a good chance Xi would repeat the same blunder with catastrophic consequences for himself China & the world.

Wonder if the same applies to Leaderji. After all we've an example in our first PM & how he blundered his way into 1962 in spite of plenty of warnings & signalling.

 

[mist_consecutive]

how to be careful ? , build roads everywhere else , galwan valley / roads upto touching lac very last .

Actually we didn't build road till PP14. We just built a bridge over the Shyok river at the mouth of Galwan-Shyok confluence so that our troops can move to Galwan valley. Mind it, this bridge is still good 5 km away from PP14 and ~8 km from Chinese positions.

I don't think blaming infra development is correct for Indo-China clash. Chinese just wanted to fight, they came prepared to fight with us. Multiple examples we have seen, from killing Col. Santosh Babu to that recent Pangong Tso video where the Chinese soldier decievingly pulls our soldiers hand and starts fighting.

 

[mokoman]

Actually we didn't build road till PP14. We just built a bridge over the Shyok river at the mouth of Galwan-Shyok confluence so that our troops can move to Galwan valley. Mind it, this bridge is still good 5 km away from PP14 and ~8 km from Chinese positions.

I don't think blaming infra development is correct for Indo-China clash. Chinese just wanted to fight, they came prepared to fight with us. Multiple examples we have seen, from killing Col. Santosh Babu to that recent Pangong Tso video where the Chinese soldier decievingly pulls our soldiers hand and starts fighting.

we didnt complete , because they blocked us and we bend the knee , they start blocking early on .

 

[Azaad]

Actually we didn't build road till PP14. We just built a bridge over the Shyok river at the mouth of Galwan-Shyok confluence so that our troops can move to Galwan valley. Mind it, this bridge is still good 5 km away from PP14 and ~8 km from Chinese positions.

I don't think blaming infra development is correct for Indo-China clash. Chinese just wanted to fight, they came prepared to fight with us. Multiple examples we have seen, from killing Col. Santosh Babu to that recent Pangong Tso video where the Chinese soldier decievingly pulls our soldiers hand and starts fighting.

China definitely came at us in 2020 following the revocation of Article 370 , AS's belligerent statements in Parliament which was directed against Paxtan & watched the spurt in infrastructure build up across the LAC in that light.

People normally see or rather perceive the action of others in the light of one's own . Since the Chinese are as deceptive as they come , the thinking in the CCP was Indians are pulling a fast one on them by focusing our commentary on Paxtan.

The ones who should've been doing the war gaming on the Chinese response to our revocation of Article 370 & the intense build up of infrastructure on the LAC should've been the MEA mandarins & especially the China Study Group in the PMO for that was the mandate behind the founding of that group.

But what happened ? Both of them were fast asleep as both of them come from the same stock - the IFS as opposed to the original plan of IG to have an alternative PoV by keeping this institute free from the IFS who eventually managed to circumvent the mandate & hijack the institute resulting in unanimity of views which is why we find ourselves where we are today.

 

[ezsasa]

Everything can be sped up & ways found to circumvent obstacles if the will is there. Reason for 10 yr delay in delivery of Ak-203 was principally on account of disputes in ToT & localisation of components among OTHER issues including the war in Ukraine.

For eg - GoI can even now go in for a G2G deal for 36 nos Rafale for which they've created infrastructure & more importantly paid for it perhaps even enhancing the qty to 54 nos & having combined it with the 26 nos of the IN can negotiate a better package with Dassault getting them to open up a line in MIHAN - Nagpur as well with the promise of a further order in tranches for the IAF & IN .

Will they do it ? Absolutely not.

This is precisely the reason I mentioned that both the MoD & the armed forces including the PMO are on the same page as far as the threat perception from China is concerned.

Sometime back I was reading on how Putin blundered his way into the Ukraine war for he was surrounded by yes men who wouldn't dare cross him & there's a good chance Xi would repeat the same blunder with catastrophic consequences for himself China & the world.

Wonder if the same applies to Leaderji. After all we've an example in our first PM & how he blundered his way into 1962 in spite of plenty of warnings & signalling.

just in case,this thread hasn't caught your eye.. to get an idea on what do i mean by pipeline in my post.

Modi Sarkaar - Defence Acquisitions

Lists of some major defence deals signed/cleared under Modi Sarkar since 2014: Updated list with country of Origin of the equipment. ======== 2014 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks. 🇮🇳 262 Barak-1 SAMs. 🇮🇱 2015 36 Rafale Fighter Jets. 🇫🇷 22 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters. (Delivery completed in 2020)...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Azaad]

just in case,this thread hasn't caught your eye.. to get an idea on what do i mean by pipeline in my post.

Modi Sarkaar - Defence Acquisitions

Lists of some major defence deals signed/cleared under Modi Sarkar since 2014: Updated list with country of Origin of the equipment. ======== 2014 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks. 🇮🇳 262 Barak-1 SAMs. 🇮🇱 2015 36 Rafale Fighter Jets. 🇫🇷 22 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters. (Delivery completed in 2020)...

defenceforumindia.com

I understood your point. Did you understand mine ?

 

[ezsasa]

I understood your point. Did you understand mine ?

issue is not with the understanding part, it is with probability of outcome.

let's say in this upcoming budget and the next budget, gormint indicates that they are ramping up defence spending more than double the usual 9% CAGR. then we can assume that something is about to happen, since ramping up production and procurement starts with budget allocation. can even go to extent to assume that engineering is a non-issue for the sake of this argument.

if it does not happen, what would your reaction be?

 

[Azaad]

issue is not with the understanding part, it is with probability of outcome.

let's say in this upcoming budget and the next budget, gormint indicates that they are ramping up defence spending more than double the usual 9% CAGR. then we can assume that something is about to happen, since ramping up production and procurement starts with budget allocation. can even go to extent to assume that engineering is a non-issue for the sake of this argument.

if it does not happen, what would your reaction be?

It's not going to happen.

I've reconciled myself to it though from time to time it still rankles. I feel we're destined to suffer a deja vu . Would love to be proven wrong but it'd take extraordinary sacrifices from our jawans for no fault of theirs if at all

 

[ezsasa]

It's not going to happen.

I've reconciled myself to it though from time to time it still rankles. I feel we're destined to suffer a deja vu . Would love to be proven wrong but it'd take extraordinary sacrifices from our jawans for no fault of theirs if at all

on the assumption that newly inducted weapons are the key to success, have a look at range used by both ukraine and russia in their war, they are mostly relying on tried and tested weapons. ukranian side are having trouble with supply of newly inducted weapons. 40 trillion collective economy supplying one side and two trillion economy on the other side.

other than the FPV drone warfare, new major weapon category that got inducted are hypersonics and glide bombs from russian side.

on potential china conflict, on the gaps side, last time i gave this a thought about a year ago, one of the major gaps was rocket force both in defensive and offensive role. what do we do when large rocket force salvo coming our way and how many will have to be sent the other way. this is yet to be answered for me. rest are manageable within the existing weapons profile in the inventory and pipeline.

 

[vidhwanshak]

we didnt allow anything , they build the road while kargil war was going on .

And ?
Kargil wasn't even a full blown war. Allowing PLA to make roads on your claim area was a big foolishness. We can argue that we were at war but what about afterwards?
That road allows them to hold so much advantage in the area against us.

 

[mokoman]

And ?
Kargil wasn't even a full blown war. Allowing PLA to make roads on your claim area was a big foolishness. We can argue that we were at war but what about afterwards?
That road allows them to hold so much advantage in the area against us.

ah i was wrong .

chinese build that road 1 year after kargil , right after our president state visit to china .

as usual we fucked up

 

[Crazywithmath]

chinese build that road 1 year after kargil , right after our president state visit to china .

That nation takes pride in their deception game (the reason why no border agreement will ever work) - in hindsight, not surprising.

 

[Master Chief]

That nation takes pride in their deception game (the reason why no border agreement will ever work) - in hindsight, not surprising.

Yep.. Winning without fighting.. Getting pregnant without phucking .. that sort of thing..

 

[Azaad]

on the assumption that newly inducted weapons are the key to success, have a look at range used by both ukraine and russia in their war, they are mostly relying on tried and tested weapons. ukranian side are having trouble with supply of newly inducted weapons. 40 trillion collective economy supplying one side and two trillion economy on the other side.

other than the FPV drone warfare, new major weapon category that got inducted are hypersonics and glide bombs from russian side.

on potential china conflict, on the gaps side, last time i gave this a thought about a year ago, one of the major gaps was rocket force both in defensive and offensive role. what do we do when large rocket force salvo coming our way and how many will have to be sent the other way. this is yet to be answered for me. rest are manageable within the existing weapons profile in the inventory and pipeline.

Here's part of the answers to the questions you've posed & answers to questions you haven't posed.

Maj Gen G.D. Bakshi on the recent upheavals in Jammu ( Reasi , Kathua etc ) the Agniveer program , on what our responses should be , his recommendations et al in his own inimitable passionate style.

What comes across quite clearly is the entire Agniveer program is driven ONLY by the PMO . Guess this is what happens when you've a baniya as a PM. You get the ultimate bean counter & a good economy , everything else be damned.

The more I get to see this side of Modi , the more I'm convinced he's transformed in to a megalomamiac especially in the past 2 years best exemplified by the run up to the general elections & his 400 paar jumla.

Hope he's got rid of his high horse now.

 

[mokoman]

something big , China about to grab shoal from phillipines

phillipines has a mutual defense treaty with USA . USA should be stepping in but no spine .

gonna be big win for China .

 

[ezsasa]

Here's part of the answers to the questions you've posed & answers to questions you haven't posed.

Maj Gen G.D. Bakshi on the recent upheavals in Jammu ( Reasi , Kathua etc ) the Agniveer program , on what our responses should be , his recommendations et al in his own inimitable passionate style.

What comes across quite clearly is the entire Agniveer program is driven ONLY by the PMO . Guess this is what happens when you've a baniya as a PM. You get the ultimate bean counter & a good economy , everything else be damned.

The more I get to see this side of Modi , the more I'm convinced he's transformed in to a megalomamiac especially in the past 2 years best exemplified by the run up to the general elections & his 400 paar jumla.

Hope he's got rid of his high horse now.

where is china in this video? are you referring to this discussion in this thread or some other discussion in some other thread?