India-China Border conflict

[Marliii]

Nice pla camo somewhere in South tibet
View attachment 201424

PLA is serious about modernising their infantry.well in the other hand we are stuck without basic things that aren't vintage for our infantry

 

[Blademaster]

‘You have the money……. To buy so many.

The items are short range hence there are not enough targets in Tibet to rain so many missiles.

A more accurate missile like Pralaya or Brahmos can do the job which ten less accurate Chinese missiles will do, hence numbers have to take into consideration, the enemy missile, their reliability and accuracy Etc. Everything which is manufactured in China is dollar store quality hence easy to defeat. If in doubt ask Chinese customers in Asia and Africa. The only reason some nations buy Chinese stuff is because they sell at third the price of similar American or British stuff.

I gave out the numbers because we will be facing an industrial warfare by the Chinese. They will pump out so many missiles and material that we would be at a serious disadvantage. We do have one thing in our favor. The Himalayas will negate a large portion of their overwhelming industrial advantages but it is not enough. We need enough to saturate the chokepoints in the Tibet area. Like laying await around the watering wells in an arid land and attack there. Look at the Russian-Ukrainian conflict and see the massive amount of ordnance being spent there and the logistical issues of keeping the armies supplied. Ukraine only survived because NATO has supplied a massive amount of ordnance to the Ukrainian army to keep it fighting. China does not have that issue. India will have that issue and will not have NATO or the likes to keep India supplied. India will be on its own and that is why it is necessary for India to have such large orders because it means that large factories will be built and a logistical chain will be created to supply large amount of ordnance to keep the IA fighting and from being overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

 

[Hari Sud]

I gave out the numbers because we will be facing an industrial warfare by the Chinese. They will pump out so many missiles and material that we would be at a serious disadvantage. We do have one thing in our favor. The Himalayas will negate a large portion of their overwhelming industrial advantages but it is not enough. We need enough to saturate the chokepoints in the Tibet area. Like laying await around the watering wells in an arid land and attack there. Look at the Russian-Ukrainian conflict and see the massive amount of ordnance being spent there and the logistical issues of keeping the armies supplied. Ukraine only survived because NATO has supplied a massive amount of ordnance to the Ukrainian army to keep it fighting. China does not have that issue. India will have that issue and will not have NATO or the likes to keep India supplied. India will be on its own and that is why it is necessary for India to have such large orders because it means that large factories will be built and a logistical chain will be created to supply large amount of ordnance to keep the IA fighting and from being overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

‘Good points……. Himalayas will negate most of Chinese intents. There are only 12 narrow passes at average 13,000 feet to cross into India to invade. If we block them after Chinese have crossed, that will do the job.

Their industrial base is 4,000 km away in the East. It is hard to reinforce from that far.

That means that Chinese only intimidate, will not fight. For them to loose a battle is loss of prestige. They will intimidate only not fight.

 

[Jimih]

Their industrial base is 4,000 km away in the East. It is hard to reinforce from that far.

The distance of their industrial base/population centres also somehow acts to their advantage.

 

[Hari Sud]

The distance of their industrial base/population centres also somehow acts to their advantage.

‘Yes, difficult to bomb but good that it is too damn difficult to source material for Tibet.

 

[Jimih]

‘Yes, difficult to bomb but good that it is too damn difficult to source material for Tibet.

We should be concentrating on the ocean and seas.

 

[flanker99]

‘You have the money……. To buy so many.

The items are short range hence there are not enough targets in Tibet to rain so many missiles.

A more accurate missile like Pralaya or Brahmos can do the job which ten less accurate Chinese missiles will do, hence numbers have to take into consideration, the enemy missile, their reliability and accuracy Etc. Everything which is manufactured in China is dollar store quality hence easy to defeat. If in doubt ask Chinese customers in Asia and Africa. The only reason some nations buy Chinese stuff is because they sell at third the price of similar American or British stuff.

it is foolish to assume chinese missiles are shit without any evendence to back it up that lot fires hundreds of missiles every year for testing ..lets not be like those pakistanis

 

[mist_consecutive]

Nice pla camo somewhere in South tibet
View attachment 201424

The picture is heavily edited to look more camouflaged. But anyway, PLA is an example of an army serious about modernization. They have one of the best camo schemes in the world.

 

[Waanar]

Nice pla camo somewhere in South tibet
View attachment 201424

Credit where its due, PLA's camo are rather good. Some of it is nonsensical, sure (blue navy one) but the others are just functional af.
One of the few things these cockroach munchers got right.

 

[Jimih]

Some of it is nonsensical, sure (blue navy one) but the others are just functional af.

You mean the PLA Marines camo?

It's nonsensical as fuck.

 

[KurtisBrian]

You mean the PLA Marines camo?

It's nonsensical as fuck.

View attachment 201453

might seem crazy until they lay down and become a puddle of water.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Not that we expect anything out of it.

 

[Illusive]

Nice pla camo somewhere in South tibet
View attachment 201424

Its nice but heavily edited image in terms of colour saturation.

 

[ezsasa]

*A Tambram & The Peking Soup.*

(A Long Post)

It was the summer of 1986, life in India was going as usual. Rajiv Gandhi had been the Prime minister for 2 years and Congress dominated the entire political scenario of the country on the account of the sympathy votes they garnered​

​

after the death of Indira Gandhi in 1984. The economy had begun to grow at 5% after roughly 3 decades of stagnancy. The mood in the country was upbeat and the politicians in the Raisina corridor of Delhi were preparing for the next elections (mind you this was the time before the​

Bofors scandals broke out and scandalised the Rajiv Gandhi Government).

On the morning of 2nd May, 1986 a phone rang in the Military Operations Directorate, in Army Headquarters New Delhi. It was no ordinary phone call, it was different. The call had directly come from the​

Director of Intelligence Bureau (IB) informing the Army Headquarters that Chinese had occupied Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh and were stocking up their positions and preparing for a War like which happened in 1962. The message was immediately conveyed to the then Chief of​

Army Staff General Krishnaswamy Sundarji .

Now Sundarji was an unconventional Army Chief. A first generation Army officer, son of a Physics Professor and a Maths Teacher, he was a Tamil Brahmin (Tambram as they call today). He had joined the Army rather than MBBS just to prove​

his father that he was a brave man. In the Army, he had the reputation for being a startegic thinker and an intellectual.

Without any delay, he sprung into action. The Chinese had occupied the Thiag La ridge in Arunachal Pradesh overlooking Tawang and were demanding Indian Army​

retreat from Arunachal Pradesh and the government handover Arunachal Pradesh to China which they claim was South Tibet.

This was preposterous according to Sundarji. He immediately moved the 17th Mountain division to Arunachal Pradesh under Major General JM Singh and asked the 33 Corps to move to Arunachal Pradesh.

For 4 months, the Indian and the Chinese troops looked eyeball to eyeball. The Govt in New Delhi was nervous. The Chinese were dead sure to call the Indian bluff as they knew that India didn't have roads to supply and sustain their troops for more than a year.

The winter continued and politicians in New Delhi grew nervous. In the absence of any roads, the Indian Army was using mules to stock supply, which was unfeasible in the long run according to Major General JM Singh as the Chinese had superior all weather roads. Infrastructure in Arunachal Pradesh had been neglected for a long time. The winter was over and the Chinese were preparing to teach India another lesson.

Surprisingly Sundarji was completely quiet during those months refusing to give interviews. For 6 months, he had worked on a plan to mobilise troops and teach the Chinese a lesson. Audacious of him.

The spring of 1987 arrived and the standoff was continuing. The atmosphere was tense. And Sundarji made the first move. Using the newly induced Mi-17 Russian helicopters along with older Mi-8s​

he airlifted 3 brigades (10,000 troops) overnight and outflanked the Chinese. Now Indian troops had an immense advantage sitting at the mountain tops within fortified positions looking down at the Chinese troops below.​

All day, using megaphones and laud speakers Indian Army soldiers would blast messages in Mandarin humiliating and demoralising the Chinese. The logistics and supply lines of Chinese were cutoff. In fact the situation became so bad that the PLA soldiers started committing suicide. The Chinese were incensed at this.​

The Indian Ambassador in Beijing was summoned and was abused by the Chinese Foreign Minister in the most unparliamentary language .

Before the Chinese could react, Sundarji Struck again. He moved another Infantry division based in South India to Arunachal Pradesh and occupied the Namka Chu Valley.

In 1962, Indian Army had been brutally defeated by the PLA there and they had occupied the Namka Chu valley which gave PLA towering altitude advantage over the Indian Army garrisons located in Arunachal Pradesh.​

​

Not only was the Namka Chu valley reconquered but the area was supplemented with Mi-35 attack helicopters and Bofor guns ... The Chinese were really terrified then. In a mere 14 days, they had lost the advantage they had gained over 25 years.

All this happened without Rajiv Gandhi even getting a whiff of it. When the complexity of the situation was known, Rajiv Gandhi lost his cool. General Sundarji was summoned to PMO and when he was asked about the plans to deal with Chinese, he replied nonchalantly that the Army was ready to go on an offensive and occupy roughly 10,000 Sq Kms in Tibet ridge line and hold on to it and ultimately force the PLA to retreat to pre-1962 positions. As he said these words, there was silence in the room and Rajiv Gandhi was looking at him bewildered.

What followed was a shameful assertion of Indian political establishment lacking a spine. Sundarji was reprimanded by the PM and was asked to move back, which he unwillingly did. His Military Operations Directorate staff remember that he told the PM and the Defence Minister that India was losing a golden chance and the country would pay for it in future. Ironically it turned out to be true in 2017.

Rajiv Gandhi and Congress got brownie points and won praise from China apologists for dealing with the Chinese in a mature manner. Now 35 years later, the question is 'Was General Sundarji right'? Today, the answer is Yes. We as a country are paying price for short term Political Brownie Points .

Now Sundarji was not limited to China only, he scared the shit out of General Zia in 1987 by conducting an excercise involving 500K troops on the Rajasthan border (Ex-Brasstacks). He was the first Indian Army Chief who openly argued that Pakistan should be prevented from becoming a nuclear state and was an advocate of conducting nuclear tests. In fact the 1998 Pokhran tests were based on the plans formulated by him in 1988.

Ironically, the Chinese were impressed with a man of Sundarji's calibre and invited him for a visit in 1993 after his retirement. In Beijing , when the Marshal of PLA asked Sundarji what he would like to eat, with a poker face, the General replied, "I as an Indian would like to drink Peking Soup", which meant that he could manage​

and predict the Chinese easily, needless to say the PLA Marshal was left red-faced and could smile only in reply.​

Yet today, General Sundarji remains a controversial man, maligned by Congress affiliated media and journalists just because he stood up against the the then PM Rajiv Gandhi.​

 

[jai jaganath]

*A Tambram & The Peking Soup.*​

(A Long Post)​

It was the summer of 1986, life in India was going as usual. Rajiv Gandhi had been the Prime minister for 2 years and Congress dominated the entire political scenario of the country on the account of the sympathy votes they garnered​

​

after the death of Indira Gandhi in 1984. The economy had begun to grow at 5% after roughly 3 decades of stagnancy. The mood in the country was upbeat and the politicians in the Raisina corridor of Delhi were preparing for the next elections (mind you this was the time before the​

Bofors scandals broke out and scandalised the Rajiv Gandhi Government).​

On the morning of 2nd May, 1986 a phone rang in the Military Operations Directorate, in Army Headquarters New Delhi. It was no ordinary phone call, it was different. The call had directly come from the​

Director of Intelligence Bureau (IB) informing the Army Headquarters that Chinese had occupied Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh and were stocking up their positions and preparing for a War like which happened in 1962. The message was immediately conveyed to the then Chief of​

Army Staff General Krishnaswamy Sundarji .​

Now Sundarji was an unconventional Army Chief. A first generation Army officer, son of a Physics Professor and a Maths Teacher, he was a Tamil Brahmin (Tambram as they call today). He had joined the Army rather than MBBS just to prove​

his father that he was a brave man. In the Army, he had the reputation for being a startegic thinker and an intellectual.​

Without any delay, he sprung into action. The Chinese had occupied the Thiag La ridge in Arunachal Pradesh overlooking Tawang and were demanding Indian Army​

retreat from Arunachal Pradesh and the government handover Arunachal Pradesh to China which they claim was South Tibet.​

This was preposterous according to Sundarji. He immediately moved the 17th Mountain division to Arunachal Pradesh under Major General JM Singh and asked the 33 Corps to move to Arunachal Pradesh.​

For 4 months, the Indian and the Chinese troops looked eyeball to eyeball. The Govt in New Delhi was nervous. The Chinese were dead sure to call the Indian bluff as they knew that India didn't have roads to supply and sustain their troops for more than a year.​

The winter continued and politicians in New Delhi grew nervous. In the absence of any roads, the Indian Army was using mules to stock supply, which was unfeasible in the long run according to Major General JM Singh as the Chinese had superior all weather roads. Infrastructure in Arunachal Pradesh had been neglected for a long time. The winter was over and the Chinese were preparing to teach India another lesson.​

Surprisingly Sundarji was completely quiet during those months refusing to give interviews. For 6 months, he had worked on a plan to mobilise troops and teach the Chinese a lesson. Audacious of him.​

The spring of 1987 arrived and the standoff was continuing. The atmosphere was tense. And Sundarji made the first move. Using the newly induced Mi-17 Russian helicopters along with older Mi-8s​

he airlifted 3 brigades (10,000 troops) overnight and outflanked the Chinese. Now Indian troops had an immense advantage sitting at the mountain tops within fortified positions looking down at the Chinese troops below.​

All day, using megaphones and laud speakers Indian Army soldiers would blast messages in Mandarin humiliating and demoralising the Chinese. The logistics and supply lines of Chinese were cutoff. In fact the situation became so bad that the PLA soldiers started committing suicide. The Chinese were incensed at this.​

The Indian Ambassador in Beijing was summoned and was abused by the Chinese Foreign Minister in the most unparliamentary language .​

Before the Chinese could react, Sundarji Struck again. He moved another Infantry division based in South India to Arunachal Pradesh and occupied the Namka Chu Valley.​

In 1962, Indian Army had been brutally defeated by the PLA there and they had occupied the Namka Chu valley which gave PLA towering altitude advantage over the Indian Army garrisons located in Arunachal Pradesh.​

Not only was the Namka Chu valley reconquered but the area was supplemented with Mi-35 attack helicopters and Bofor guns ... The Chinese were really terrified then. In a mere 14 days, they had lost the advantage they had gained over 25 years.​

All this happened without Rajiv Gandhi even getting a whiff of it. When the complexity of the situation was known, Rajiv Gandhi lost his cool. General Sundarji was summoned to PMO and when he was asked about the plans to deal with Chinese, he replied nonchalantly that the Army was ready to go on an offensive and occupy roughly 10,000 Sq Kms in Tibet ridge line and hold on to it and ultimately force the PLA to retreat to pre-1962 positions. As he said these words, there was silence in the room and Rajiv Gandhi was looking at him bewildered.​

What followed was a shameful assertion of Indian political establishment lacking a spine. Sundarji was reprimanded by the PM and was asked to move back, which he unwillingly did. His Military Operations Directorate staff remember that he told the PM and the Defence Minister that India was losing a golden chance and the country would pay for it in future. Ironically it turned out to be true in 2017.​

Rajiv Gandhi and Congress got brownie points and won praise from China apologists for dealing with the Chinese in a mature manner. Now 35 years later, the question is 'Was General Sundarji right'? Today, the answer is Yes. We as a country are paying price for short term Political Brownie Points .​

Now Sundarji was not limited to China only, he scared the shit out of General Zia in 1987 by conducting an excercise involving 500K troops on the Rajasthan border (Ex-Brasstacks). He was the first Indian Army Chief who openly argued that Pakistan should be prevented from becoming a nuclear state and was an advocate of conducting nuclear tests. In fact the 1998 Pokhran tests were based on the plans formulated by him in 1988.​

Ironically, the Chinese were impressed with a man of Sundarji's calibre and invited him for a visit in 1993 after his retirement. In Beijing , when the Marshal of PLA asked Sundarji what he would like to eat, with a poker face, the General replied, "I as an Indian would like to drink Peking Soup", which meant that he could manage​

and predict the Chinese easily, needless to say the PLA Marshal was left red-faced and could smile only in reply.​

Yet today, General Sundarji remains a controversial man, maligned by Congress affiliated media and journalists just because he stood up against the the then PM Rajiv Gandhi.​

One doubt when they had all weather roads till the clash point and superior logistics the how did we cut their supplies
Anyway as much I have read about sunderji I understood him as a terrific man for enemy and everyday my respect increase for such personalities

 

[ezsasa]

One doubt when they had all weather roads till the clash point and superior logistics the how did we cut their supplies
Anyway as much I have read about sunderji I understood him as a terrific man for enemy and everyday my respect increase for such personalities

they were encircled with IA holding on to heights with direct line of sight.

 

[mist_consecutive]

 

[mokoman]

*A Tambram & The Peking Soup.*​

(A Long Post)​

It was the summer of 1986, life in India was going as usual. Rajiv Gandhi had been the Prime minister for 2 years and Congress dominated the entire political scenario of the country on the account of the sympathy votes they garnered​

​

after the death of Indira Gandhi in 1984. The economy had begun to grow at 5% after roughly 3 decades of stagnancy. The mood in the country was upbeat and the politicians in the Raisina corridor of Delhi were preparing for the next elections (mind you this was the time before the​

Bofors scandals broke out and scandalised the Rajiv Gandhi Government).​

On the morning of 2nd May, 1986 a phone rang in the Military Operations Directorate, in Army Headquarters New Delhi. It was no ordinary phone call, it was different. The call had directly come from the​

Director of Intelligence Bureau (IB) informing the Army Headquarters that Chinese had occupied Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh and were stocking up their positions and preparing for a War like which happened in 1962. The message was immediately conveyed to the then Chief of​

Army Staff General Krishnaswamy Sundarji .​

Now Sundarji was an unconventional Army Chief. A first generation Army officer, son of a Physics Professor and a Maths Teacher, he was a Tamil Brahmin (Tambram as they call today). He had joined the Army rather than MBBS just to prove​

his father that he was a brave man. In the Army, he had the reputation for being a startegic thinker and an intellectual.​

Without any delay, he sprung into action. The Chinese had occupied the Thiag La ridge in Arunachal Pradesh overlooking Tawang and were demanding Indian Army​

retreat from Arunachal Pradesh and the government handover Arunachal Pradesh to China which they claim was South Tibet.​

This was preposterous according to Sundarji. He immediately moved the 17th Mountain division to Arunachal Pradesh under Major General JM Singh and asked the 33 Corps to move to Arunachal Pradesh.​

For 4 months, the Indian and the Chinese troops looked eyeball to eyeball. The Govt in New Delhi was nervous. The Chinese were dead sure to call the Indian bluff as they knew that India didn't have roads to supply and sustain their troops for more than a year.​

The winter continued and politicians in New Delhi grew nervous. In the absence of any roads, the Indian Army was using mules to stock supply, which was unfeasible in the long run according to Major General JM Singh as the Chinese had superior all weather roads. Infrastructure in Arunachal Pradesh had been neglected for a long time. The winter was over and the Chinese were preparing to teach India another lesson.​

Surprisingly Sundarji was completely quiet during those months refusing to give interviews. For 6 months, he had worked on a plan to mobilise troops and teach the Chinese a lesson. Audacious of him.​

The spring of 1987 arrived and the standoff was continuing. The atmosphere was tense. And Sundarji made the first move. Using the newly induced Mi-17 Russian helicopters along with older Mi-8s​

he airlifted 3 brigades (10,000 troops) overnight and outflanked the Chinese. Now Indian troops had an immense advantage sitting at the mountain tops within fortified positions looking down at the Chinese troops below.​

All day, using megaphones and laud speakers Indian Army soldiers would blast messages in Mandarin humiliating and demoralising the Chinese. The logistics and supply lines of Chinese were cutoff. In fact the situation became so bad that the PLA soldiers started committing suicide. The Chinese were incensed at this.​

The Indian Ambassador in Beijing was summoned and was abused by the Chinese Foreign Minister in the most unparliamentary language .​

Before the Chinese could react, Sundarji Struck again. He moved another Infantry division based in South India to Arunachal Pradesh and occupied the Namka Chu Valley.​

In 1962, Indian Army had been brutally defeated by the PLA there and they had occupied the Namka Chu valley which gave PLA towering altitude advantage over the Indian Army garrisons located in Arunachal Pradesh.​

Not only was the Namka Chu valley reconquered but the area was supplemented with Mi-35 attack helicopters and Bofor guns ... The Chinese were really terrified then. In a mere 14 days, they had lost the advantage they had gained over 25 years.​

All this happened without Rajiv Gandhi even getting a whiff of it. When the complexity of the situation was known, Rajiv Gandhi lost his cool. General Sundarji was summoned to PMO and when he was asked about the plans to deal with Chinese, he replied nonchalantly that the Army was ready to go on an offensive and occupy roughly 10,000 Sq Kms in Tibet ridge line and hold on to it and ultimately force the PLA to retreat to pre-1962 positions. As he said these words, there was silence in the room and Rajiv Gandhi was looking at him bewildered.​

What followed was a shameful assertion of Indian political establishment lacking a spine. Sundarji was reprimanded by the PM and was asked to move back, which he unwillingly did. His Military Operations Directorate staff remember that he told the PM and the Defence Minister that India was losing a golden chance and the country would pay for it in future. Ironically it turned out to be true in 2017.​

Rajiv Gandhi and Congress got brownie points and won praise from China apologists for dealing with the Chinese in a mature manner. Now 35 years later, the question is 'Was General Sundarji right'? Today, the answer is Yes. We as a country are paying price for short term Political Brownie Points .​

Now Sundarji was not limited to China only, he scared the shit out of General Zia in 1987 by conducting an excercise involving 500K troops on the Rajasthan border (Ex-Brasstacks). He was the first Indian Army Chief who openly argued that Pakistan should be prevented from becoming a nuclear state and was an advocate of conducting nuclear tests. In fact the 1998 Pokhran tests were based on the plans formulated by him in 1988.​

Ironically, the Chinese were impressed with a man of Sundarji's calibre and invited him for a visit in 1993 after his retirement. In Beijing , when the Marshal of PLA asked Sundarji what he would like to eat, with a poker face, the General replied, "I as an Indian would like to drink Peking Soup", which meant that he could manage​

and predict the Chinese easily, needless to say the PLA Marshal was left red-faced and could smile only in reply.​

Yet today, General Sundarji remains a controversial man, maligned by Congress affiliated media and journalists just because he stood up against the the then PM Rajiv Gandhi.​

the Chinese. The logistics and supply lines of Chinese were cutoff. In fact the situation became so bad that the PLA soldiers started committing suicide. The Chinese were incensed at this

'suicide? ' imho this part is nonsense . stand off went on for years, they brought in artys, helis . occupied nearby ridges . places they still ocuppy to this day .

still . if there was a war we could have won . something accepted even by chinese . they had 3 fighter jets in tibet , IAF dominated them , our mig 25 was flying all over Tibet doing recon , they couldnt do anything

stand off ended with both sides losing area . imho most sensible outcome .

 

[ezsasa]

the Chinese. The logistics and supply lines of Chinese were cutoff. In fact the situation became so bad that the PLA soldiers started committing suicide. The Chinese were incensed at this

'suicide? ' imho this part is nonsense .

should we wait for PLA confirmation on this?

 

[jai jaganath]

they were encircled with IA holding on to heights with direct line of sight.

But that doesn't stop there supplies until there is no war
AFAIK it was a standoff so being in direct line of sight or not doesn't matter as u have time to stockpile until the war begins and that suicide part seems bit vague let's not question that