India-China Border conflict

jai jaganath

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By that logic even A2A doesnt work that well in mountains (indeed the terrain would favour the non stealth side, inviting stealth targets to move in closer to get kills)

Infra doesnt need AF, its static target.
If both lose ability to use air power, IAF did its job as defender and PLAAF failed as attacker.

More rocket artillery, yes. By around 20%. Not enough as attacker, and you should stop crying by now about industrial capability... We have up to 5k pinaka per year existing capability, forget running triple shifts for max production.

"No time" wont be 2 months from factory to frontline, and that is all that counts before war either ends or gets others involved.

Yeah, AMCA wont come in next 5-10 years, but it the only solution to our issues. If you read what I said, till AMCA comes IAF will be decidedly on the defensive.


Again, many, many months needed for making planes, hand waving about "industrial capability" does nothing.
Tejas MK-2 will be getting inducted well before 2032, so not true.


In that case, if war breaks out, move down south as far as you can from border, since you have so little faith in our capabilities :) .
Their industrial capability can also run three fold times during war producing many more times of what we will be getting or what we have
Atleast in artillery and more domain they can manufacture manifold times of what we can do in war period
Coming to fighter aircrafts we will see during war the way they could compensate it
All the best if mk2 gets inducted by 2032
And amca is not solution to this problem its only mmrca and mk2 that can solve and both are far from completion
Need not go to South as I generally live in middle of India where impact reaching would be less
 

srevster

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Their industrial capability can also run three fold times during war producing many more times of what we will be getting or what we have
Atleast in artillery and more domain they can manufacture manifold times of what we can do in war period
Coming to fighter aircrafts we will see during war the way they could compensate it
All the best if mk2 gets inducted by 2032
And amca is not solution to this problem its only mmrca and mk2 that can solve and both are far from completion
Need not go to South as I generally live in middle of India where impact reaching would be less
That’s all fine. Which of the one child princes will actually pick up these weapons to go fight the Indians and hold the territory on the ground.

which Chinese families will be okay with their lineages getting wiped out for Xi’s fantasies.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Their industrial capability can also run three fold times during war producing many more times of what we will be getting or what we have
Atleast in artillery and more domain they can manufacture manifold times of what we can do in war period
Coming to fighter aircrafts we will see during war the way they could compensate it
All the best if mk2 gets inducted by 2032
And amca is not solution to this problem its only mmrca and mk2 that can solve and both are far from completion
Need not go to South as I generally live in middle of India where impact reaching would be less
1) With all the fetish you have for their industry, kindly explain how they intend to create new plants, get new machinery for them, train new people for them, manufacture new rounds, and then have them on the front in two months.
2) "We will see" is the most vague hand waving possible.
3)Nope, neither MMRCA nor Tejas MK-2 gives us any capability that we dont have. It will simply give us more aircraft bodies to throw at the chinese, to give them more trouble. AMCA will allow us to go on offensive and do deep strike.
 

srevster

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This is paki level post
Maybe you should understand that wars are won on the basis of motivation, objectives and boots on the ground. Let’s say they bomb our positions, will we sit idle and not fire back.

I’m asking you which CCP commander will actually rally their forces to go on offensive And hold Indian territory. In 1962, they retreated after a quick strike; why do you think they will do something different now.

so if the maximum fall out is a hit and run, why are you shaking in your boots about their MIC.
 

another_armchair

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In mountainous terrain S2A can't be most effective due to radar problems wrt line of sight
First we discussed that iaf has to destroy their infra now u r saying as Chinese being attacking force will have to use their air force but we won't
I don't understand if we won't them how can we destroy their infra
Now if both lost runways I don't see any victory here
Chinese have more nos of 155 mm guns and more nos of rocket artillery and infact many more than us
They have mbrls tbm in huge nos just look at their industrial capability
Moreover they can build it in no time even if they lost some or if they want more
Their striking capability is more than us in region
I don't know the status of CM though
Again we are talking about next 5-10 years so better ignore amca which won't come till then
Both of them have to conduct aerial operations and both will lose aircraft but the one who has large nos ad can replace it will have massive advantage
On other hand our sq strength is depleting and continue to deplete for next 10 years also basically a free fall
Iaf will definitely let us down
A definite option for you before the first shots are fired.

1678429219129.png


Kind request - Please put doomsday scenarios in a spoiler and tag it as 'Randi Rona' so I won't pop a vein reading it.

Thank you.
 

jai jaganath

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Maybe you should understand that wars are on the basis of motivation, objectives and boots on the ground. Let’s say they bomb our positions, will we sit idle and not fire back.

I’m asking you which CCP commander will actually rally their forces to go on offensive And hold Indian territory. In 1962, they retreated after a quick strike; why do you think they will do something different now.

so if the maximum fall out is a hit and run, why are you shaking in your boots about their MIC.
This logic of single child and we fought wars and they haven't so they can't is damn vague
Who said we will sit idle we are discussing a war where both side have to fight common sense bro
If their commanders commanded then they have no choice other than obeying
If our commanders say our soldiers obey them or not why not them
Aren't we all humans
Is it same way we will react to them like 1962
No our reaction will be different and better
If no even they aren't living in 1962 if our actions are better so even their actions are
 

srevster

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This logic of single child and we fought wars and they haven't so they can't is damn vague
Who said we will sit idle we are discussing a war where both side have to fight common sense bro
If their commanders commanded then they have no choice other than obeying
If our commanders say our soldiers obey them or not why not them
Aren't we all humans
Is it same way we will react to them like 1962
No our reaction will be different and better
If no even they aren't living in 1962 if our actions are better so even their actions are
What’s their motivation to attack and what are their objectives?
 

Cheepek

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They have their own platform in awacs refuelers or lifters
They can built it in huge nos if they want as they have mic
Even during war they can replace their lost aircrafts but we can't
The advantages of mountain aerial warfare is applicable to them too
Problem is nos they have nos and over it manufacturing capacity
On other have don't have both
Another major point no one is gonna help us by creating pressure in scs so they can deploy assets if they want
Great, then why don't they invade? Are they waiting for us to complete our squadrons?
 

mist_consecutive

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Seriously is that u writing this bro
What can we built exactly in manpads we still haven't inducted it
Then u think we will be able to match their mic with 'little' help from external countries on contrary we don't even have a cent of mic or industrial capability wrt China
Coming to what we manufacture even that's nased on imported sub systems even hypothetically include those do u think we will match their might industry
Again to critical components manufacturing wrt China yes they can do it in small duration they can lunch above their weight as even we will do in times of war but their intensity will damn too high
Again to most interesting point which nation will provide us lost fighters which nation especially against mighty China and most importantly without begging
We have seen during clash the mismanagement sir
All we can expect our DM running to countries not to stop spares atleast and getting few ammunitions from them in c-17
Sorry if I have written something offending
@jai jaganath I will give you one good reply. Take it or leave it, I am not babysitting you anymore.

Let's start from the basics. Air combat requires the following things to be present -
  1. Fighter jets for conducting missions
  2. Support (transport, recon, EW, refuellers, AWACS) aircraft.
  3. Suitable airbases to launch the above aircraft.
  4. Supply lines to keep all of the above working.
Now, let's look at the ground-picture (not what will be X years from now).

Fighter jets for conducting missions
The main strength of China is surplus 4th-gen jets (J-10s, J-11s, and J-16s, plus a handful of Su-30 & Su-35), amounting to some ~800-1000 jets (propaganda number alert!)

Similarly, we counter them with our own 4+gen jets (Su-30MKI, Mig-29UPG, Rafale & Mirage-2000), amounting to some ~430 jets.

Now, the fun thing is, China doesn't have enough airbases to deploy even half of their total 4th gen fighter strength, whereas we can deploy 100% of them towards China. I will explain this in more details later.

Winner:- India by a slight margin.

Note:- Why am I counting J-20 out of it? J-20 (and similarly any stealth fighter) requires specialized facilities and climate-controlled hangers to be kept air-worthy. None of the airbases in Tibet currently has that capability. They will be likely to be operational in very limited numbers, only to conduct specialised missions.

Support (transport, recon, EW, refuellers, AWACS) aircraft.
Chinese air transport is mainly IL-76MD & Y-20s, which is ~50-55 aircrafts (propaganda number alert!), which will be barely adequate to supply their entire eastern front + mainland china during an intense war.

Similarly, we too have a decent airlift capacity consisting of ~34 no. of IL-76MD & C-17s which will be barely adequate in supplying northern & eastern fronts. The catch here is, our supply routes are shorter, so we won't be entirely relying on military transports.

So what about refuellers (which will be critical in supporting ops in Tibet) ? Well, they have only a handful. Their mainstay is H-6 bombers modified to carry refuelling pods, and can transfer ~18T of fuel. For comparison, J-11 can carry 9T of fuel. So a H-6 bomber can only refuel ~2-3 J-11 fighter. That is just a bit better than buddy-to-buddy refuelling.

For comparison, IL-78MKI we operate can carry 105T of fuel, which can effectively refuel ~18 a/cs in one flight.

What about AWACS ? Well, we do have a disadvantage, with China sporting ~30 (propaganda number alert!), and we have only 6. But Chinese AWACS are based on propeller a/cs which have a lower speed and service ceiling, and it also remains to be seen how many can they allocate to Tibetian sector.

Winner:- Contested with a slight advantage to China in local sectors.

Suitable airbases to launch the above aircraft.
This is where it all falls apart for China :) All the above falls apart spectacularly due to the lack of suitable airbases to launch & sustain air missions.
Now, why is this so critical? Didn't China offset the disadvantage by just building longer runaways? Well, no.

Disadvantages of super-high altitude airbases -
  • A rarefied atmosphere leads to erratic lift characteristics. High temperatures (20+ deg.) in mid-day lowers the density of already thin air, which effectively stops safe air operations.
  • Rarefied atmosphere leads to longer take-off lengths, and longer take-off lengths lead to higher tire speeds and overheating of tires, increasing tire bursts, brake-pad fires, and other accidents.
  • High-altitude winds (generally in afternoon-night) over Tibet often mean no a/cs can be safely operated during that time.
  • High-chance of aircrew developing altitude sickness unless acclimatized, which means a/cs cannot do touch-and-go missions from mainland China.
Even if we leave high-altitude airbases, we have 3 times more suitably-placed airbases for operation than China. All airbases in Punjab, Haryana, J&K, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, & NE are within a suitable distance of air missions over Tibet/LAC.
China just cannot sustain a large-scale air operation from Tibet against India.

Winner:- Overwhelmingly, India.

Supply lines to keep all of the above working.
Perhaps the most neglected. All our airbases (except Leh & Thoise in Ladakh) are connected by stable, fail-proof supply lines. Even if all our transport aircraft get shot down, we can use our road & excellent rail network to keep our bases supplied.
China doesn't enjoy this privilege. Not only their supply lines are extremely stretched, but go through vulnerable choke points (bridges, tunnels, narrow mountain passes). Not only this, sustaining a military over Tibet will cost a huge amount of money in supplies alone.

Winner:- India.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop crying, we are not doomed. If our condition was that dire, China would have attacked us in 2020 and captured Ladakh & Arunachal Pradesh. Instead, they are building fortifications and digging trenches on their own lands.
 

Master Chief

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Their industrial capability can also run three fold times during war producing many more times of what we will be getting or what we have
Atleast in artillery and more domain they can manufacture manifold times of what we can do in war period
Coming to fighter aircrafts we will see during war the way they could compensate it
All the best if mk2 gets inducted by 2032
And amca is not solution to this problem its only mmrca and mk2 that can solve and both are far from completion
Need not go to South as I generally live in middle of India where impact reaching would be less
India can go to war, against China, only if the US also is involved in the war, and US Navy blockades most raw material supplies to Chinese ports.. That would slow down the Chinese industrial behemoth.. and no amount of raw materials from Russia via difficult terrain on land can suffice, as it cant reach the industrial south east coast at scale..
 

mokoman

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Old Immortal Modi: Is India's "savior" or a sinner through the ages?


apparently according to the comments India is really easy to break up and doesnt really exist .

 

Angel of War

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What’s their motivation to attack and what are their objectives?
Well the motivation comes from the fact that they still live in the imaginary pain of the supposed great century of humiliation and are hell bent on avenging it, but the Chinese are smart people who take calculated risks and only attack when they're sure of victory. So I don't see them attacking india till they are actually sure of taking something valuable which isn't possible in the current scenario, they're waiting for india to be distracted again like it was during covid to seize the initiative.

Attacking india is like 50 times worse than it is for Russia in Ukraine. Landslides, snow and ofocurse our boys will suck the life out of them. No air force will save them
 
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Angel of War

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Old Immortal Modi: Is India's "savior" or a sinner through the ages?


apparently according to the comments India is really easy to break up and doesnt really exist .

I smell Han Supremacy in the comments
 

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