India-China Border conflict

[Gyyan]

Nothing will make NATO happier to kill two birds (two growing economies) with one stone, and they will happily provide us with any capability we ask for tacking China.

West's wet dream!!!

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Hold your horses. MIC is no longer stamped steel and riveted aluminum. It is milled & carefully CNC'ed titanium block and carbon-fiber & reinforced fiberglass. What it means is, it will take time.

They can build it in huge numbers, sure, we can as well with a bit of external help. Also, we don't have to reply to fighter jets with fighter jets. We can reply with indigenous MANPADs and SAMs as well.

We can replace our lost aircraft as well. IAF is trained on multiple types of jets, which means we can loan/buy Mirage-2000s, Mig-29s, Rafale, etc. from the current inventory of friendly countries as well without going begging like Ukraine.

But all these debates of attrition and manufacturing capability come at a prolonged (3+ month) of intense war, which China will avoid at any cost, seeing the condition of Russia. Nothing will make NATO happier to kill two birds (two growing economies) with one stone, and they will happily provide us with any capability we ask for tacking China.

which countries will provide with aircrafts at a time of war from their current inventory especially against china?

 

[jai jaganath]

Hold your horses. MIC is no longer stamped steel and riveted aluminum. It is milled & carefully CNC'ed titanium block and carbon-fiber & reinforced fiberglass. What it means is, it will take time.

They can build it in huge numbers, sure, we can as well with a bit of external help. Also, we don't have to reply to fighter jets with fighter jets. We can reply with indigenous MANPADs and SAMs as well.

We can replace our lost aircraft as well. IAF is trained on multiple types of jets, which means we can loan/buy Mirage-2000s, Mig-29s, Rafale, etc. from the current inventory of friendly countries as well without going begging like Ukraine.

But all these debates of attrition and manufacturing capability come at a prolonged (3+ month) of intense war, which China will avoid at any cost, seeing the condition of Russia. Nothing will make NATO happier to kill two birds (two growing economies) with one stone, and they will happily provide us with any capability we ask for tacking China.

Seriously is that u writing this bro
What can we built exactly in manpads we still haven't inducted it
Then u think we will be able to match their mic with 'little' help from external countries on contrary we don't even have a cent of mic or industrial capability wrt China
Coming to what we manufacture even that's nased on imported sub systems even hypothetically include those do u think we will match their might industry
Again to critical components manufacturing wrt China yes they can do it in small duration they can lunch above their weight as even we will do in times of war but their intensity will damn too high
Again to most interesting point which nation will provide us lost fighters which nation especially against mighty China and most importantly without begging
We have seen during clash the mismanagement sir
All we can expect our DM running to countries not to stop spares atleast and getting few ammunitions from them in c-17
Sorry if I have written something offending

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

They can deploy many refuelers to counter their high altitude runways
They have huge nos to throw and moreover in every category of missions they want
They have more nos of auxiliary aircrafts to support their air missions
Theg can maintain air dominance in their region and also challenge us in our side
On other hand our sq strength is falling expecting for indigenous fighter jets to come after 1.5 decades and then addressing it is nothing but foolishness bcoz enemy is not gonna wait
These guys couldn't even complete mmrca which adds sufficient fuel to our issue

You are too blackpilled lol.

Yes, IAF is in a bad position, but half the stuff you said isnt true.

1) Both IAF and Chinese PLAAF are competent at air defence, no aerial refueller/AWACS will be in the air for too long near the border ( a good 150-200 kms from the border, and that is assuming we havent gotten ERADS/XRSAM till then and choose to conserve S400).

2) Yes, chinese will probably have advantage in air combat (in no less part due to J-20, which even if only semi stealth will be better in BVR than our frontline fighters)

What we can, however, do is two things - Area denial and land attack. Prevent them from using the mass of their air force by having tight AD cover, and have land attack munitions at hand to make their landing strips inoperable for a few hours at a time, and in general harrass them on the ground. ANd we have made good strides in these areas.

IAF will only be able to take PLAAF head on when we get AMCA< or order F35. CHoice is yours, I would much rather wait 10 years than ruin my aerospace industry. Yes, for those 10 years IAF will be defensive. WE con cover for that weakness of land attack and CAS with long range missiles ad guided artillery, both of which are ares where we have good capability/ongoing research.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Seriously is that u writing this bro
What can we built exactly in manpads we still haven't inducted it
Then u think we will be able to match their mic with 'little' help from external countries on contrary we don't even have a cent of mic or industrial capability wrt China
Coming to what we manufacture even that's nased on imported sub systems even hypothetically include those do u think we will match their might industry
Again to critical components manufacturing wrt China yes they can do it in small duration they can lunch above their weight as even we will do in times of war but their intensity will damn too high
Again to most interesting point which nation will provide us lost fighters which nation especially against mighty China and most importantly without begging
We have seen during clash the mismanagement sir
All we can expect our DM running to countries not to stop spares atleast and getting few ammunitions from them in c-17
Sorry if I have written something offending

Lol. Russia has nukes to threaten NATO, and NATO is still emptying out their pockets to supply Ukraine.

China has only economic threats to make, and it is the future challenger to NATO - Expect much bigger push from those countries to give us material. Keep in mind, when I say "give", it will be loaned to us and they will extract their money after the war; but weapons on hand will be there.

And you have a bit of an unrealistic expectation of "mighty industry", chinese defence manufacturers fuck up quite often, but get ingored as to not hurt their image. Cue the unimpressive record of how their material performs once sold to someone.

 

[jai jaganath]

You are too blackpilled lol.

Yes, IAF is in a bad position, but half the stuff you said isnt true.

1) Both IAF and Chinese PLAAF are competent at air defence, no aerial refueller/AWACS will be in the air for too long near the border ( a good 150-200 kms from the border, and that is assuming we havent gotten ERADS/XRSAM till then and choose to conserve S400).

2) Yes, chinese will probably have advantage in air combat (in no less part due to J-20, which even if only semi stealth will be better in BVR than our frontline fighters)

What we can, however, do is two things - Area denial and land attack. Prevent them from using the mass of their air force by having tight AD cover, and have land attack munitions at hand to make their landing strips inoperable for a few hours at a time, and in general harrass them on the ground. ANd we have made good strides in these areas.

IAF will only be able to take PLAAF head on when we get AMCA< or order F35. CHoice is yours, I would much rather wait 10 years than ruin my aerospace industry. Yes, for those 10 years IAF will be defensive. WE con cover for that weakness of land attack and CAS with long range missiles ad guided artillery, both of which are ares where we have good capability/ongoing research.

U r speaking about tight AD
Very well
Even if I assume both of them have no windows open although fighting in mountainous region and ignoring the line of sight issues of radars
U can stop their air operations until u don't destroy their aircrafts in AA combat or destroying their runways
Coming to destroying runways action is binary they have equal advantages of destroying our runways
Next to cause destruction of enemy establishment u either need rocket force or air force
And we know where we stand wrt artillery tbm cm compared to china
No need to speak about it
In modern warfare we can't keep such optimistic approach air force will be used and definitely be used
Both of them have ARM to counter air defence
Here the nos matter both will face lose but can sustain more and replace quickly matters
We all know how artillery and aerial missions decide the direction of war in this region for that u need nos
And we not only lack it but also not addressing it
AMCA part has no use in this argument

 

[jai jaganath]

Lol. Russia has nukes to threaten NATO, and NATO is still emptying out their pockets to supply Ukraine.

China has only economic threats to make, and it is the future challenger to NATO - Expect much bigger push from those countries to give us material. Keep in mind, when I say "give", it will be loaned to us and they will extract their money after the war; but weapons on hand will be there.

And you have a bit of an unrealistic expectation of "mighty industry", chinese defence manufacturers fuck up quite often, but get ingored as to not hurt their image. Cue the unimpressive record of how their material performs once sold to someone.

So u believe countries will come and give us weapons to fight China knowing that we will be their next threat
Isn't it foolish
Ukraine is different issue India is different they know they are fighting Russians who has lost all its power and in future posses no threat to them its only benefiting their mic
Coming to us when China enters equation
We are not Europe
Importantly if we both fight its just shooting 2 birds from 1 bullet
Helpings is different league bro
They know the damage we both can put on each other but the balance is against us so better for them
Coming to fighter aircraft even Ukraine is not getting it forget about us
We have nothing to replace but theg have adequate industry to support and supply
Almost DM running for spares and ammunition expected

 

[mokoman]

fuckers have no shame , pangong tso disengagement humiliated them and they are still posting this shit

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

U r speaking about tight AD
Very well
Even if I assume both of them have no windows open although fighting in mountainous region and ignoring the line of sight issues of radars
U can stop their air operations until u don't destroy their aircrafts in AA combat or destroying their runways
Coming to destroying runways action is binary they have equal advantages of destroying our runways

Nope. A2A is not the only way. S2A works just as well, as as the attacking force, the chinese will be forced to have A2G commitments that the IAF wont.
Sure, runways can be destroyed for both. If both are ineffective, then IAF has prevented PLAAF from doing much
Thats called a defensive victory.

Next to cause destruction of enemy establishment u either need rocket force or air force
And we know where we stand wrt artillery tbm cm compared to china
No need to speak about it

Sure. I think we stand very favourably compared to China. You know why? Defenders advantage.
And something you dont seem to know - We have more gun artillery than china does.
Rocket artillery I dont know the exact figures, but the chinese advantage is not as high as you have imagined it to be in your mind.

In modern warfare we can't keep such optimistic approach air force will be used and definitely be used
Both of them have ARM to counter air defence
Here the nos matter both will face lose but can sustain more and replace quickly matters
We all know how artillery and aerial missions decide the direction of war in this region for that u need nos
And we not only lack it but also not addressing it
AMCA part has no use in this argument

AMCA is the solution, it is very relevant to the discussion. Lack of AMCA means we stay entirely defensive, and simply force PLAAF to do airstrikes with only J-20s. With AMCA, we can do offensive defense with our own deep strikes.

ARM are not a solution for everythiing, even USA with its heavy emphasis on SEAD, and complete air dominance, was unable to fully silence iraqi anti air assets. Chinese, with no dedicated platform, wont do any better.

As for replace quickly, that is the point - We can replace with our own + other countries. They cant.




There is good reason to overestimate your enemy, prepares you for worst case scenario. But scare mongering by assuming worst case scenario is just stupidity and does not help.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

So u believe countries will come and give us weapons to fight China knowing that we will be their next threat
Isn't it foolish
Ukraine is different issue India is different they know they are fighting Russians who has lost all its power and in future posses no threat to them its only benefiting their mic
Coming to us when China enters equation
We are not Europe
Importantly if we both fight its just shooting 2 birds from 1 bullet
Helpings is different league bro
They know the damage we both can put on each other but the balance is against us so better for them
Coming to fighter aircraft even Ukraine is not getting it forget about us
We have nothing to replace but theg have adequate industry to support and supply
Almost DM running for spares and ammunition expected

If India and China fight, and its a long war, we both lose. West wins.
If we fight a short war and lose, we lose more.

Wests interest is to supply us weapons and elongate war, to break both countries. Our interest is to prevent chinese advance and end war ASAP. Chinese interest is to advance quickly and end war ASAP.

If initial phase is inconclusive, then war will strech, and only then will resupply issues kick in. And chinese MIC and economy will get screwed when semiconductor sanctions kick in.

 

[Kumaoni]

If India and China fight, and its a long war, we both lose. West wins.
If we fight a short war and lose, we lose more.

Wests interest is to supply us weapons and elongate war, to break both countries. Our interest is to prevent chinese advance and end war ASAP. Chinese interest is to advance quickly and end war ASAP.

If initial phase is inconclusive, then war will strech, and only then will resupply issues kick in. And chinese MIC and economy will get screwed when semiconductor sanctions kick in.

 

[prasadr14]

If India and China fight, and its a long war, we both lose. West wins.
If we fight a short war and lose, we lose more.

Wests interest is to supply us weapons and elongate war, to break both countries. Our interest is to prevent chinese advance and end war ASAP. Chinese interest is to advance quickly and end war ASAP.

If initial phase is inconclusive, then war will strech, and only then will resupply issues kick in. And chinese MIC and economy will get screwed when semiconductor sanctions kick in.

Short of launching a thousand nukes on India, there is no scenario where Chinese can win a short war with India.

If the intention is wage small localized war on border to win land, China may start with that intention but India may have altogether different intentions in case of being attacked.

So, all in all, the reason why we are still using swords and sticks at the border with China is that neither country knows how or has the capability to wage and win against each other.

Looking at Russia - Ukraine war with almost flat lands and friendly weather, imagine fighting across Himalayas and weather that can kill you in seconds.....good luck to any army trying to cross and fighting a war. More than the enemy, it's the nature that will kill them soldiers.

 

[armortec]

Regardless of the outcome of the clash(es), what can be said at least is that it has been a failure of deterrence. I personally do believe this isn't some short term "sending a message" but a long term plan to first become the regional power (including the Indian Ocean). Whoever controls the Indian Ocean controls The World.

 

[jai jaganath]

Nope. A2A is not the only way. S2A works just as well, as as the attacking force, the chinese will be forced to have A2G commitments that the IAF wont.
Sure, runways can be destroyed for both. If both are ineffective, then IAF has prevented PLAAF from doing much
Thats called a defensive victory.

Sure. I think we stand very favourably compared to China. You know why? Defenders advantage.
And something you dont seem to know - We have more gun artillery than china does.
Rocket artillery I dont know the exact figures, but the chinese advantage is not as high as you have imagined it to be in your mind.

AMCA is the solution, it is very relevant to the discussion. Lack of AMCA means we stay entirely defensive, and simply force PLAAF to do airstrikes with only J-20s. With AMCA, we can do offensive defense with our own deep strikes.

ARM are not a solution for everythiing, even USA with its heavy emphasis on SEAD, and complete air dominance, was unable to fully silence iraqi anti air assets. Chinese, with no dedicated platform, wont do any better.

As for replace quickly, that is the point - We can replace with our own + other countries. They cant.




There is good reason to overestimate your enemy, prepares you for worst case scenario. But scare mongering by assuming worst case scenario is just stupidity and does not help.

In mountainous terrain S2A can't be most effective due to radar problems wrt line of sight
First we discussed that iaf has to destroy their infra now u r saying as Chinese being attacking force will have to use their air force but we won't
I don't understand if we won't them how can we destroy their infra
Now if both lost runways I don't see any victory here
Chinese have more nos of 155 mm guns and more nos of rocket artillery and infact many more than us
They have mbrls tbm in huge nos just look at their industrial capability
Moreover they can build it in no time even if they lost some or if they want more
Their striking capability is more than us in region
I don't know the status of CM though
Again we are talking about next 5-10 years so better ignore amca which won't come till then
Both of them have to conduct aerial operations and both will lose aircraft but the one who has large nos ad can replace it will have massive advantage
On other hand our sq strength is depleting and continue to deplete for next 10 years also basically a free fall
Iaf will definitely let us down

 

[jai jaganath]

If India and China fight, and its a long war, we both lose. West wins.
If we fight a short war and lose, we lose more.

Wests interest is to supply us weapons and elongate war, to break both countries. Our interest is to prevent chinese advance and end war ASAP. Chinese interest is to advance quickly and end war ASAP.

If initial phase is inconclusive, then war will strech, and only then will resupply issues kick in. And chinese MIC and economy will get screwed when semiconductor sanctions kick in.

Point is no one knows where will war go just look at recent wars
The who gives up after realizing who is more fucked up
How much ever u want to justify its simple as that they won't supply a penny of ammunitions if not begged and made some deal undermining our status and benefiting them
Except good speeches nothing will be available forget fighter jets no one will send that and make chinese focus particularly on them post war
U will see DM roaming in c-17 begging for ammunitions from so called friendly nation

 

[Bharatiya]

Point is no one knows where will war go just look at recent wars
The who gives up after realizing who is more fucked up
How much ever u want to justify its simple as that they won't supply a penny of ammunitions if not begged and made some deal undermining our status and benefiting them
Except good speeches nothing will be available forget fighter jets no one will send that and make chinese focus particularly on them post war
U will see DM roaming in c-17 begging for ammunitions from so called friendly nation

You're under some deep blackpilling.

Let's go with your logic, China attacks, India gets no support. India can still defend itself. But again, let's say India loses. Then what?

Dominos will fall faster than anyone can manage.

China will officially establish hegemony in South Asia, East Asia and control SCS completely. The weakened Russia is already in China's pocket. Central Asian countries will bend to their new master.

With their fucked up demographics, Japan and South Korea wouldn't be in any position other than defending themselves.

China 2.0 will be bigger than USSR in wealth, power and influence. Thanks to all the vassal states, it'll grow far faster. Australia will fall—either through political hijacking or economic influence. Europe and US will be at the risk of being subdued. They'll be squeezed by China or even if they end up winning, the fight itself will devastate whatever prosperity they have and decimate their already bad demographics.

We can still play a defense war without their support but ignoring us will bite back west in the ass. And west is not stupid enough to ignore India in a war. These guys are sharks and they'll be here when they smell blood.

 

[jai jaganath]

You're under some deep blackpilling.

Let's go with your logic, China attacks, India gets no support. India can still defend itself. But again, let's say India loses. Then what?

Dominos will fall faster than anyone can manage.

China will officially establish hegemony in South Asia, East Asia and control SCS completely. The weakened Russia is already in China's pocket. Central Asian countries will bend to their new master.

With their fucked up demographics, Japan and South Korea wouldn't be in any position other than defending themselves.

China 2.0 will be bigger than USSR in wealth, power and influence. Thanks to all the vassal states, it'll grow far faster. Australia will fall—either through political hijacking or economic influence. Europe and US will be at the risk of being subdued. They'll be squeezed by China or even if they end up winning, the fight itself will devastate whatever prosperity they have and decimate their already bad demographics.

We can still play a defense war without their support but ignoring us will bite back west in the ass. And west is not stupid enough to ignore India in a war. These guys are sharks and they'll be here when they smell blood.

We will see bro
Who comes for help especially for aircrafts spares and other critical imported weapon

 

[Jimih]

fuckers have no shame , pangong tso disengagement humiliated them and they are still posting this shit

Same North Bank of Pangong Tso

 

[Jimih]

We will see bro
Who comes for help especially for aircrafts spares and other critical imported weapon

According to you War can only be won via Air Force dominance and that too in Super High Altitudes?

Sorry mate than Defense Forums are not for you, spend your costly time somewhere else in other social forums.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

In mountainous terrain S2A can't be most effective due to radar problems wrt line of sight

By that logic even A2A doesnt work that well in mountains (indeed the terrain would favour the non stealth side, inviting stealth targets to move in closer to get kills)

First we discussed that iaf has to destroy their infra now u r saying as Chinese being attacking force will have to use their air force but we won't
I don't understand if we won't them how can we destroy their infra
Now if both lost runways I don't see any victory here

Infra doesnt need AF, its static target.
If both lose ability to use air power, IAF did its job as defender and PLAAF failed as attacker.

Chinese have more nos of 155 mm guns and more nos of rocket artillery and infact many more than us
They have mbrls tbm in huge nos just look at their industrial capability

More rocket artillery, yes. By around 20%. Not enough as attacker, and you should stop crying by now about industrial capability... We have up to 5k pinaka per year existing capability, forget running triple shifts for max production.

Moreover they can build it in no time even if they lost some or if they want more

"No time" wont be 2 months from factory to frontline, and that is all that counts before war either ends or gets others involved.

Again we are talking about next 5-10 years so better ignore amca which won't come till then

Yeah, AMCA wont come in next 5-10 years, but it the only solution to our issues. If you read what I said, till AMCA comes IAF will be decidedly on the defensive.

Both of them have to conduct aerial operations and both will lose aircraft but the one who has large nos ad can replace it will have massive advantage
On other hand our sq strength is depleting and continue to deplete for next 10 years also basically a free fall

Again, many, many months needed for making planes, hand waving about "industrial capability" does nothing.
Tejas MK-2 will be getting inducted well before 2032, so not true.

Iaf will definitely let us down

In that case, if war breaks out, move down south as far as you can from border, since you have so little faith in our capabilities .