India-China Border conflict

[Blademaster]

PLA fought in those wars via proxy, they didn’t send their own. Korean War was between North Korea and South Korea. The role of PLA was assistance. The actual people who found were from the PVA. Those vets are not part of the PLA which is a separate organization.

What history book have you been reading? Did your history professor show up for your history class? PLA was very much involved in the Korean War. They sent nearly 1.5 million soldiers into that war and suffered enormous casualties. They managed to encircle the US fighting force on three separate occasions although they were not able to seal the deal. Check out the Battle of Chosin Reservoir. Check it out at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#China_intervenes_(October–December_1950)

regarding 1962, I don’t really count it. They didn’t fight a prepared enemy that is entrenched.

As for 1962 war, sorry that counts as a real war and to their credit, they caught IA completely unprepared with their pants down and achieved their objectives. That's how you win wars.

Regarding the Vietnam war, that is the only active theater where they fought and got their ass handed to them. All skirmishes where the opponent was prepared, they lost. 1967, 1986-1987.

No they didn't get their asses handed to them. It was the other way around. They captured 4 provincial capitals and forced the NVA to retreat and come to the negotiating table with their hats in their hands. Sure PLA suffered enormous casualties but they did achieve their objectives.

 

[srevster]

What history book have you been reading? Did your history professor show up for your history class? PLA was very much involved in the Korean War. They sent nearly 1.5 million soldiers into that war and suffered enormous casualties. They managed to encircle the US fighting force on three separate occasions although they were not able to seal the deal. Check out the Battle of Chosin Reservoir. Check it out at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#China_intervenes_(October–December_1950)



As for 1962 war, sorry that counts as a real war and to their credit, they caught IA completely unprepared with their pants down and achieved their objectives. That's how you win wars.



No they didn't get their asses handed to them. It was the other way around. They captured 4 provincial capitals and forced the NVA to retreat and come to the negotiating table with their hats in their hands. Sure PLA suffered enormous casualties but they did achieve their objectives.

do you know the difference between PLA and PVA. Read up on it and come back and explain to me what the difference is.

regarding Vietnam, they got their ass handed to them.

 

[Blademaster]

do you know the difference between PLA and PVA. Read up on it and come back and explain to me what the difference is.

regarding Vietnam, they got their ass handed to them.

The PVA is the PLA. PVA was just a cover name but it was indeed the PLA. As for Vietnam, no they didn't get their ass handed to them. Sure they suffered a lot of casualties but still achieved their objectives and captured 4 provincial capitals.

Look I am not trying to glorify the PLA but let us be smart about it and not underestimate them. It is our underestimation of the PLA that did us in 1962. Don't repeat that same mistake.

 

[Jimih]

I remember reading they were planning to upgrade Nyoma (along with others) at least as far back as 2019 .

Not finding that news.

 

[srevster]

The PVA is the PLA. PVA was just a cover name but it was indeed the PLA. As for Vietnam, no they didn't get their ass handed to them. Sure they suffered a lot of casualties but still achieved their objectives and captured 4 provincial capitals.

Look I am not trying to glorify the PLA but let us be smart about it and not underestimate them. It is our underestimation of the PLA that did us in 1962. Don't repeat that same mistake.

I’ll agree to disagree. US also achieved its objectives in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Basic perspective is that US lost all three wars. War doesn’t start and end when you say it does. It is based on who has the ground and who controls that territory. Today India controls Arunachal Pradesh. In the 80’s India annexed Sikkim. Today India protects Bhutan and not China, effectively denying China’s 5 finger objective. Case in point 1962 was a skirmish with only the loss of Aksai Chin. Since then India has consolidated gains in Siachen, Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim. In the 70’s we bifurcated Pakistan, consolidating our control over the subcontinent. If PLA goes to war with India, their lack of experience and appetite for blood will be the main reason they will lose.

we have the special frontiers force which is specifically trained to go behind enemy lines to cut off supply chains. If the balloon goes up, expect China to lose access to all the villages and bases that it is building. As the saying goes, finders keepers

 

[The Shrike]

Not finding that news.

From 2011 :

IAF to upgrade airfields at Kargil,Nyoma

Defence Ministry has given clearance for expanding Nyoma airbase but clearance from Cabinet is awaited.

indianexpress.com

Indian Air Force to upgrade air strips at Kargil, Nyoma

Indian Air Force is set to upgrade its air strips at Kargil and Nyoma to facilitate the movement of fighter and heavy transport aircraft.

m.economictimes.com

More recent 2017:

India's Air Force beefs up the Ladakh front

The Air Force is scouting airfields in the area, to enable transport aircraft to land and take-off whenever required, following concerns about India's neighbouring state.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sanglamorre]

What exactly are they trying to mimic ? Unless PLA is planning to invade honeybees, a normal human does not move like a ping-pong ball.

They're mimicking attacking the balls of Indian soldiers as they get whacked with sticks. They decided upon this height based on their own height

 

[Jimih]

From 2011 :

IAF to upgrade airfields at Kargil,Nyoma

Defence Ministry has given clearance for expanding Nyoma airbase but clearance from Cabinet is awaited.

indianexpress.com

Indian Air Force to upgrade air strips at Kargil, Nyoma

Indian Air Force is set to upgrade its air strips at Kargil and Nyoma to facilitate the movement of fighter and heavy transport aircraft.

m.economictimes.com

More recent 2017:

India's Air Force beefs up the Ladakh front

The Air Force is scouting airfields in the area, to enable transport aircraft to land and take-off whenever required, following concerns about India's neighbouring state.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thanks mate.

 

[Blademaster]

If PLA goes to war with India, their lack of experience and appetite for blood will be the main reason they will lose.

This is the part I strongly disagree with. Never presume your enemy to be lacking in experience and appetite for blood for that kind of thinking it will pave the way to hubris and hence disaster. All an experience we are too familiar with in 1962.

 

[Blademaster]

They're mimicking attacking the balls of Indian soldiers as they get whacked with sticks. They decided upon this height based on their own height

It is about creating and maintaining fast reflexes and muscle memory.

 

[srevster]

This is the part I strongly disagree with. Never presume your enemy to be lacking in experience and appetite for blood for that kind of thinking it will pave the way to hubris and hence disaster. All an experience we are too familiar with in 1962.

Also don’t do over analysis on the enemy capabilities and second guess yourself and be stuck with decision paralysis. When the enemy is quick to fold after a couple Gholgappas, we should push the momentum forward and in our favor. Always defending in fear of escalation because we put the enemy on a pedestal will be seen as a weakness and will invite more attacks from the enemy.

in other words offense is the best defense. Counter salami slicing or annexation of Bhutan like Sikkim should be high on our priority list.

 

[Blademaster]

Also don’t do over analysis on the enemy capabilities and second guess yourself and be stuck with decision paralysis. When the enemy is quick to fold after a couple Gholgappas, we should push the momentum forward and in our favor. Always defending in fear of escalation because we put the enemy on a pedestal will be seen as a weakness and will invite more attacks from the enemy.

You misread me. Overprepare and expect the worst and you will be hardly surprised and it will be a benefit when you got the momentum and you can press on. We will not be scared of taking the fight to the enemy but don't expect the enemy to fold over. You prepare for that enemy to fight to the last and you take that into consideration when doing the planning.

 

[Gyyan]

You misread me. Overprepare and expect the worst and you will be hardly surprised and it will be a benefit when you got the momentum and you can press on. We will not be scared of taking the fight to the enemy but don't expect the enemy to fold over. You prepare for that enemy to fight to the last and you take that into consideration when doing the planning.

Funnily enough there is an instance in romance of the three kingdom where the protag stays in an empty fort and makes the enemy army retreat due to overthinking.

 

[Blademaster]

Funnily enough there is an instance in romance of the three kingdom where the protag stays in an empty fort and makes the enemy army retreat due to overthinking.

Yes there are outliers in every scenario but overall, you end up winning more and on a consistent basis when you prepare for the enemy.

I am sure that in your example you have given, that protag only achieved a temporary victory but was not able to translate it into long term gains. Long term gains are important.

 

[srevster]

You misread me. Overprepare and expect the worst and you will be hardly surprised and it will be a benefit when you got the momentum and you can press on. We will not be scared of taking the fight to the enemy but don't expect the enemy to fold over. You prepare for that enemy to fight to the last and you take that into consideration when doing the planning.

The best time to attack the Chinese was before 2019. If your logic holds true, we should have attacked before then. Now we are in a logistics, supply chain warfare, gray zone warfare with China that wants to compete on building logistics and roads. This will be a losing battle because their economy is 15 trillion and ours is 3 trillion.

by prolonging conflict, we are increasing the gap in power parity. We would’ve steam rolled them anytime between 1967 - 2019. However, our lack of focus on offense and constantly putting enemy on a pedestal prevented us from exploiting this advantage.

even now the Chinese don’t want a conflict and want us to focus on preparing and building border roads / villages. This will shift our focus away from their naval buildup.

 

[Blademaster]

The best time to attack the Chinese was before 2019. If your logic holds true, we should have attacked before then. Now we are in a logistics, supply chain warfare, gray zone warfare with China that wants to compete on building logistics and roads. This will be a losing battle because their economy is 15 trillion and ours is 3 trillion.

by prolonging conflict, we are increasing the gap in power parity. We would’ve steam rolled them anytime between 1967 - 2019. However, our lack of focus on offense and constantly putting enemy on a pedestal prevented us from exploiting this advantage.

even now the Chinese don’t want a conflict and want us to focus on preparing and building border roads / villages. This will shift our focus away from their naval buildup.

Well we do need to fortify our weaknesses and buttress our strengths. As for the navy, look at the geographical map and the geopolitical reality. The PLAN still need to get through USN and JSDMF and they have to go through these bottlenecks called Straits of Malacca and Straits of Sunda and others in the Java Sea which makes it a prime easy target area for our existing naval forces.

 

[srevster]

Yes there are outliers in every scenario but overall, you end up winning more and on a consistent basis when you prepare for the enemy.

I am sure that in your example you have given, that protag only achieved a temporary victory but was not able to translate it into long term gains. Long term gains are important.

Perception and psychological impact is also important compared to physical gains. The Chinese release of our POWs on camera was a big blow to morale, but the release from our side of the actual fight was a boost. Small iterative wins without decision paralysis where we are constantly improving and making incremental progress is much much better than biding time by constantly preparing.

 

[Blademaster]

Perception and psychological impact is also important compared to physical gains. The Chinese release of our POWs on camera was a big blow to morale, but the release from our side of the actual fight was a boost. Small iterative wins without decision paralysis where we are constantly improving and making incremental progress is much much better than biding time by constantly preparing.

Never said that we stop doing iterative wins. Constantly prepping does not mean halt to iterative wins, incremental progress. Not mutually exclusive.

 

[srevster]

Never said that we stop doing iterative wins. Constantly prepping does not mean halt to iterative wins, incremental progress. Not mutually exclusive.

The second issue we are not exploiting is the PLA command is centralized, the best counter strategy is taking the initiative. Chinese so far have been taking the initiative, so the outcomes are going to be clear to them. For India, we need a plan or sequence of objectives that are independent of what the Chinese are trying to do. India needs to retake initiative and push our agenda forward so they are in the back foot. This isn’t happening because of the 12 foot China syndrome and constant focus on preparing. We are preparing to the point where we are avoiding conflict and I feel this is bad long term, because we are playing the game China wants us to play where they have initiative. Sometimes an unexpected punch straight in the face is a good strategy to play a different game on your terms

 

[mokoman]

phoren people cant comprehend two nuclear powers fighting over land with sticks/rocks

but imho its good , better this than killing each other with guns.

still very sed that the actual 300 vs 200 tawang fight video wasnt released.