India-China Border conflict

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Its a chai guzzling samosa crunching PSU

Nice Joke, if it wasn't for DRDO, India would be begging to Russia for even nuclear tipped ballastic missiles.
Your post itself shows how little you know of DRDO

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

They didn't do a whole lot 3 years ago. Had to rely on a Mig 21.

Balakot mai Spice 2000 Mig-21 ne giraye, thats news to me.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Mr.Exfart, FYKI, DRDO isn't a production agency

No shit sherlock, DRDO's literal full-form Defence Research and Development. It hands over to other PSUs and private agencies (recent phenomena) for production. I know that. I have worked with HAL folks, I have relatives in OFB, I myself, at one point of my life, was trying to get into DRDO as a scientist.

And I have first-hand experience regarding their work culture, output efficiency, politics and quality of work.

I was referring to these bloodsucking PSUs in general.

LOL, we will end up like Ukraine if we don't have 100 Rafales.
Seems like those 270 odd Su30, 65 Mig 29, 50 Mirage 2000 and 120 odd Jaguars have no role to play in a conflict.

Haha, yeah it's very funny.
I mean, we have only 270 MKIs, have a look at how many Flankers China has, that too, modernized with AESA radar and other upgrades.
65 Mig-29 + 50 Mirage, amounts to 115 jets only.
Jaguar is a ground attack and does not count towards defense.

Total 4th-gen jets with us - 382
Total 4.5th-gen jets (Rafale) with us - 36

Now, it won't be funny when we look at Chinese jets. China has more Flankers (J-11s) than our total 4th-gen jets - 400+

Let's have a deeper look,

Total 4th-gen jets with Pakistan - 209 (more keep coming everyday)

Total 5th-gen jets with China - 100+
Total 4th-gen jets with China - 952+

So, in a two-front war scenario, considering China only deploys even half of their air force, we will be in both technological as well as numerical distadvantage, as bad as 2:1

Still think why we need more 4+ generation jets, and as urgently as possible ?

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

No shit sherlock, DRDO's literal full-form Defence Research and Development. It hands over to other PSUs and private agencies (recent phenomena) for production. I know that. I have worked with HAL folks, I have relatives in OFB, I myself, at one point of my life, was trying to get into DRDO as a scientist.

And I have first-hand experience regarding their work culture, output efficiency, politics and quality of work.


I was referring to these bloodsucking PSUs in general.

Haha, yeah it's very funny.
I mean, we have only 270 MKIs, have a look at how many Flankers China has, that too, modernized with AESA radar and other upgrades.
65 Mig-29 + 50 Mirage, amounts to 115 jets only.
Jaguar is a ground attack and does not count towards defense.

Total 4th-gen jets with us - 382
Total 4.5th-gen jets (Rafale) with us - 36

Now, it won't be funny when we look at Chinese jets. China has more Flankers (J-11s) than our total 4th-gen jets - 400+

Let's have a deeper look,

Total 4th-gen jets with Pakistan - 209 (more keep coming everyday)

Total 5th-gen jets with China - 100+
Total 4th-gen jets with China - 952+

So, in a two-front war scenario, considering China only deploys even half of their air force, we will be in both technological as well as numerical distadvantage, as bad as 2:1

Still think why we need more 4+ generation jets, and as urgently as possible ?

Ahh, as expected, here comes the usual bogey of my this or that relative used to work in DRDO and what not.

No one is arguing that we don't need more 4++ gen jets, however, 100 Rafales is simply way too expensive and would most likely be licensed production similar to Su30 coz no country will part its crown jewels for a few $$$, also a production line to build these jets will not come up overnight, it will easily be 3-4 years before the first Rafale rolls off the production line, if at all such a number of foreign jets are to be acquired, it will put all indigenous efforts on backburner, repeating the same cycle of being at mercy of the OEM for years to come.
By the first Rafale even rolls out, Tejas Mk2 would pretty much be in advanced phases of flight testing ready for serial production.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Ahh, as expected, here comes the usual bogey of my this or that relative used to work in DRDO and what not.

You realise that most people here are somehow directly or indirectly related, worked, or have experience with Indian armed forces and/or its supporting organizations ? Does that come as a surprise for you, or do you find that somehow slandering PSUs got me some personal profit (perhaps Natasha) here ?

It is rare that South Delhi Lavanya suddenly gets interested in Indian Defence and spends a considerable amount of time of her life for last 10 years lurking and reading about armed forces, weapons and strategies.

No one is arguing that we don't need more 4++ gen jets, however, 100 Rafales is simply way too expensive and would most likely be licensed production similar to Su30 coz no country will part its crown jewels for a few $$$, also a production line to build these jets will not come up overnight, it will easily be 3-4 years before the first Rafale rolls off the production line, if at all such a number of foreign jets are to be acquired, it will put all indigenous efforts on backburner, repeating the same cycle of being at mercy of the OEM for years to come.
By the first Rafale even rolls out, Tejas Mk2 would pretty much be in advanced phases of flight testing ready for serial production.

Way to expensive -> Defence budget money is literally being under-utilized. Orders should have been placed back in 2017 when we ordered 36 Rafales.

LCA Mk2 Ready -> Nothing will delight me more if LCA Mk2/ORCA can take the stage. But we have to understand, it is still in design phase, and even its first prototype is yet to fly. What if, it gets delayed ? (very probable scenario), or turns out, needs some improvement/design change, delaying the program ?

Aren't we suddenly getting too confident with our capability of making a 4.5 gen. jet when it is literally our 2nd modern jet ? If, let's say it gets delayed by 2-3 more years, and our older jets retiring, will that not be a perfect opportunity for our enemies to cash ?

 

[arnab]

Problem is, it is not enough. Govt. is not placing large orders for unknown reasons, and have completely misplaced priorities.

Take, for example, Air Force. LCA is not enough, it is a light fighter, sure, but not enough to deter China with 200+ J-16s and 100+ J-20s.
Now Pakistan too, is getting J-10s, we must order 100+ Rafales if we don't want to end up like Ukraine, but this message does not go through the thick skulls of GoI. Instead, govt. is placing all bets (supposedly) on LCA Mk2/AMCA, which has not even been prototyped yet !

This is just taking too much risk, what if the indigenous program gets delayed (very probable), what if it turns out to be sub-standard ?

1. the deal to not order 100+ rafales isnt based on lethargy and lack of vision but because no govt has 25 Billion USD to spend on new fighters. politically it is risky since the motto of this govt is make-in-india. also committing such deals has its risks as all one needs to scuttle it , is shout SCAM like rahul gandhi did and IAF will lose decade in litigation. thus the clever optionis to make some smaller deals and delay the acquisition long enugh for indian equivalent options to mature. thus, India will never buy Gripen C now that we have LCA mk1A, cause doing so wud be stupid!

2. LCA are not enugh...just like Rafales or sukhois are not enugh. they are different weight class, different roles, different time needed for maintenance. thus, though Tejas is capable of penetration strikes, it will most likely be used for CAP and by some rumours they actually were during the Galwan standoff and so were the LCH.

3. LCA mk2 or MWF will be a larger design that has already been certified by the IAF the momentthey greenlit the CDR. but its not like we are reinventing any wheels in making them. all the tech that will power MWF will be indian barring the engine. and all these tech will already be validated and matured as they will be used oboard the MK1A tejas first. thus the MWF doesnt suffer from any tech deficit that LCA mk1 IOC does! and this is the tech that we can control and their operatyional cost will be significantly lower than he 114 MRFA or the AMCA. MWF wil be the true IAF workforce in decades to come. the 200+ figure can also be met only by MWF.

4. pakistan is buyig the J10c because they now dont have access to american blessings, spares via turkey and jordan! their Thunders are proving to be inadequate against growing threat fro rafales, S400 and the Thunder structurally has peaked in terms of upgrades and at the end of it they dont have the industrial ecosystem to build a modern fighter that we have built over 40 years. and we dont even know what the fighters are like or if there are PLAAF pilots in the cockpit. to counter the 2 front threat...there is only one choice...go indigenous...and that is ever more true, after the fall of Ukraine.

 

[arnab]

You realise that most people here are somehow directly or indirectly related, worked, or have experience with Indian armed forces and/or its supporting organizations ? Does that come as a surprise for you, or do you find that somehow slandering PSUs got me some personal profit (perhaps Natasha) here ?

It is rare that South Delhi Lavanya suddenly gets interested in Indian Defence and spends a considerable amount of time of her life for last 10 years lurking and reading about armed forces, weapons and strategies.



Way to expensive -> Defence budget money is literally being under-utilized. Orders should have been placed back in 2017 when we ordered 36 Rafales.

LCA Mk2 Ready -> Nothing will delight me more if LCA Mk2/ORCA can take the stage. But we have to understand, it is still in design phase, and even its first prototype is yet to fly. What if, it gets delayed ? (very probable scenario), or turns out, needs some improvement/design change, delaying the program ?

Aren't we suddenly getting too confident with our capability of making a 4.5 gen. jet when it is literally our 2nd modern jet ? If, let's say it gets delayed by 2-3 more years, and our older jets retiring, will that not be a perfect opportunity for our enemies to cash ?

LCA mk2 design is complete, CDR has been accepted...some fabrication has begun...ORCA is uncertain, but AMCA is a certainty...if IAF is confident that ADA can build the AMCA which made them leave the PAKFA project...no need to be unecessarily alarmist and doubt out own abilities, which are exponentially higher than when we started making the Tejas!

 

[arnab]

No shit sherlock, DRDO's literal full-form Defence Research and Development. It hands over to other PSUs and private agencies (recent phenomena) for production. I know that. I have worked with HAL folks, I have relatives in OFB, I myself, at one point of my life, was trying to get into DRDO as a scientist.

And I have first-hand experience regarding their work culture, output efficiency, politics and quality of work.

I was referring to these bloodsucking PSUs in general.



Haha, yeah it's very funny.
I mean, we have only 270 MKIs, have a look at how many Flankers China has, that too, modernized with AESA radar and other upgrades.
65 Mig-29 + 50 Mirage, amounts to 115 jets only.
Jaguar is a ground attack and does not count towards defense.

Total 4th-gen jets with us - 382
Total 4.5th-gen jets (Rafale) with us - 36

Now, it won't be funny when we look at Chinese jets. China has more Flankers (J-11s) than our total 4th-gen jets - 400+

Let's have a deeper look,

Total 4th-gen jets with Pakistan - 209 (more keep coming everyday)

Total 5th-gen jets with China - 100+
Total 4th-gen jets with China - 952+

So, in a two-front war scenario, considering China only deploys even half of their air force, we will be in both technological as well as numerical distadvantage, as bad as 2:1

Still think why we need more 4+ generation jets, and as urgently as possible ?

china has the option of disregarding global IPR which we dont. and if they had confidence with their flankers they wudnt be inducting SU35 from Russia. recently in a exercise with Thai airforce, the PLAAF flankers were humiliated by the Gripens and only salvaged some dignity by using the J10s. also, chinese miliatary doesnt retire its older vessels and fighters like other militaries do. they seldom exercise with anybody but themselves, and their combat effeciency has never been put to test so mucg so thet they donbt even acknoweldge their fallen in Galwan.
so be worried about PLA...but scaremongeringand paranoia achieves nothing...Vietnam gave these ppl a bloody nose without any resources. the soldiers are the ultimate weapon of any military.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

You realise that most people here are somehow directly or indirectly related, worked, or have experience with Indian armed forces and/or its supporting organizations ? Does that come as a surprise for you, or do you find that somehow slandering PSUs got me some personal profit (perhaps Natasha) here ?

It is rare that South Delhi Lavanya suddenly gets interested in Indian Defence and spends a considerable amount of time of her life for last 10 years lurking and reading about armed forces, weapons and strategies.



Way to expensive -> Defence budget money is literally being under-utilized. Orders should have been placed back in 2017 when we ordered 36 Rafales.

LCA Mk2 Ready -> Nothing will delight me more if LCA Mk2/ORCA can take the stage. But we have to understand, it is still in design phase, and even its first prototype is yet to fly. What if, it gets delayed ? (very probable scenario), or turns out, needs some improvement/design change, delaying the program ?

Aren't we suddenly getting too confident with our capability of making a 4.5 gen. jet when it is literally our 2nd modern jet ? If, let's say it gets delayed by 2-3 more years, and our older jets retiring, will that not be a perfect opportunity for our enemies to cash ?

We made our first 4.5 gen aircraft with the Tejas itself.
Tejas Mk2 is very much on track.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

china has the option of disregarding global IPR which we dont. and if they had confidence with their flankers they wudnt be inducting SU35 from Russia. recently in a exercise with Thai airforce, the PLAAF flankers were humiliated by the Gripens and only salvaged some dignity by using the J10s. also, chinese miliatary doesnt retire its older vessels and fighters like other militaries do. they seldom exercise with anybody but themselves, and their combat effeciency has never been put to test so mucg so thet they donbt even acknoweldge their fallen in Galwan.
so be worried about PLA...but scaremongeringand paranoia achieves nothing...Vietnam gave these ppl a bloody nose without any resources. the soldiers are the ultimate weapon of any military.

Looking to how Tejas mk1 is performing , I have no doubt that mwf is going to be a a great plane. It will out class anything which China or Pakistan has. Designer says that it will be highly maneuverable. It will have between 0.2 to 0.3 RCS and will be loaded with state of art electronics and AESA which will probably jam the the radars of junk fighters of China and Pakistan. If we are able to introduce something like spectra into mwf, it will have the the force intrusion capabilities. MWF will bring lots of sensation in new fighter plane market. It has already outclassed Saab Gripen in MTOW and payload by a big margin. When it will be operated with Uttam and Astra combo, it will be a fearsome fighter. Junk 10, Junk 11, Junk fighter 17, F16 of PAF etc. will maintain safe distance from MWF.

 

[India Super Power]

Looking to how Tejas mk1 is performing , I have no doubt that mwf is going to be a a great plane. It will out class anything which China or Pakistan has. Designer says that it will be highly maneuverable. It will have between 0.2 to 0.3 RCS and will be loaded with state of art electronics and AESA which will probably jam the the radars of junk fighters of China and Pakistan. If we are able to introduce something like spectra into mwf, it will have the the force intrusion capabilities. MWF will bring lots of sensation in new fighter plane market. It has already outclassed Saab Gripen in MTOW and payload by a big margin. When it will be operated with Uttam and Astra combo, it will be a fearsome fighter. Junk 10, Junk 11, Junk fighter 17, F16 of PAF etc. will maintain safe distance from MWF.

Are bhai ane toh dijiye
Paper me toh sab changa dikhta hai

 

[arnab]

Are bhai ane toh dijiye
Paper me toh sab changa dikhta hai

its not just on paper...the industrial capabilities and the technologeis to go in the fighter are already being validated...even HAL is only integrator...not a typical production agency anymore. and given the way things have turned out...india will never be able to buy any rusian military hardware. nor can it buy critical tech from west as they will come at singnificant cost of our relatonship wih russia. u can bet that these projects will only get fast tracked and go for local options like the recent cancellation of 30 drones for indian ones though Rustom2 is not tested to its full potential yet...my guess is that MWF will also be expedited. one shud be cautious of tall claims...but not be cynical unneccessarily...as it demoralises our scientists and youngsters and empowers the professional luddites in indian left.

 

[arnab]

Looking to how Tejas mk1 is performing , I have no doubt that mwf is going to be a a great plane. It will out class anything which China or Pakistan has. Designer says that it will be highly maneuverable. It will have between 0.2 to 0.3 RCS and will be loaded with state of art electronics and AESA which will probably jam the the radars of junk fighters of China and Pakistan. If we are able to introduce something like spectra into mwf, it will have the the force intrusion capabilities. MWF will bring lots of sensation in new fighter plane market. It has already outclassed Saab Gripen in MTOW and payload by a big margin. When it will be operated with Uttam and Astra combo, it will be a fearsome fighter. Junk 10, Junk 11, Junk fighter 17, F16 of PAF etc. will maintain safe distance from MWF.

true...if this war on ukraine has proven anything...it is that there is no such thing as a nuclear umbrella...and even WW2 era tactics are relevant today!

 

[prasadr14]

true...if this war on ukraine has proven anything...it is that there is no such thing as a nuclear umbrella...and even WW2 era tactics are relevant today!

and most important of all terrain is still the king.

Russia was simply able to roll into Ukraine. They could employ their Airforce, Army and Navy as and how they see fit.
The terrain was tailor made as if it was laying out a red carpet for Russian invading forces.
And we are not even considering the weather at this point.

China on the other hand can not use it's Navy and Army in opening Salvo. It can't use Navy for obvious reasons. They have no means to get hundreds of tanks across into indian lands.

Their Air force would have to cross Himalayas and attack us and that is the only initial option they have.

The current war offers a live insight into how ground realities triumph technology.

 

[TopWatcher]

No shit sherlock, DRDO's literal full-form Defence Research and Development. It hands over to other PSUs and private agencies (recent phenomena) for production. I know that. I have worked with HAL folks, I have relatives in OFB, I myself, at one point of my life, was trying to get into DRDO as a scientist.

And I have first-hand experience regarding their work culture, output efficiency, politics and quality of work.

I was referring to these bloodsucking PSUs in general.



Haha, yeah it's very funny.
I mean, we have only 270 MKIs, have a look at how many Flankers China has, that too, modernized with AESA radar and other upgrades.
65 Mig-29 + 50 Mirage, amounts to 115 jets only.
Jaguar is a ground attack and does not count towards defense.

Total 4th-gen jets with us - 382
Total 4.5th-gen jets (Rafale) with us - 36

Now, it won't be funny when we look at Chinese jets. China has more Flankers (J-11s) than our total 4th-gen jets - 400+

Let's have a deeper look,

Total 4th-gen jets with Pakistan - 209 (more keep coming everyday)

Total 5th-gen jets with China - 100+
Total 4th-gen jets with China - 952+

So, in a two-front war scenario, considering China only deploys even half of their air force, we will be in both technological as well as numerical distadvantage, as bad as 2:1

Still think why we need more 4+ generation jets, and as urgently as possible ?

I have one question. Pak is hating us deeper than ocean. China hate us to root level.

If both Pak/China hate us so much, and have resources advantage then why they not attacking us. For what they are waiting. Pak would love to do chai/biscuit in delhi.

War fought on technological/economical/diplomatic front. These combine things make nation powerfull.

 

[prasadr14]

I have one question. Pak is hating us deeper than ocean. China hate us to root level.

If both Pak/China hate us so much, and have resources advantage then why they not attacking us. For what they are waiting. Pak would love to do chai/biscuit in delhi.

War fought on technological/economical/diplomatic front. These combine things make nation powerfull.

It's not that they don't want to, it's that they really can't.
Some times the simplest reason is the most obvious reason.

Why don't you post here how you think these 2 combined would attack us. We can take it from there.

 

[TopWatcher]

It's not that they don't want to, it's that they really can't.
Some times the simplest reason is the most obvious reason.

Why don't you post here how you think these 2 combined would attack us. We can take it from there.

I would say, not possible for them now. Pak has no backers right now (china is just eye ball). & China dont want to disrupt the economic & ladakh front.

 

[prasadr14]

I would say, not possible for them now. Pak has no backers right now (china is just eye ball). & China dont want to disrupt the economic & ladakh front.

Those are secondary issues.

Primary reasons are pretty much astronomical for these 2 countries to overcome.
It pretty much boils down to, 'how will they attack?'

and when we talk about attack, we are talking about an attack that would lead to these 2 countries tasting success.

 

[arnab]

I have one question. Pak is hating us deeper than ocean. China hate us to root level.

If both Pak/China hate us so much, and have resources advantage then why they not attacking us. For what they are waiting. Pak would love to do chai/biscuit in delhi.

War fought on technological/economical/diplomatic front. These combine things make nation powerfull.

PLA is a conscriptionbased service that operates mostly on occupied terrain that were never part of mainland China. in an event of war...india can cut off the supply lines or cause enugh damage to critical infra. compared to thet indian army is a voluntary army who have fought and won against greater odds. people oftenforget that in 1965, pakistani military was technoogically superior than india. they lost because of our soldiers, and the same was for 1962, 1971 and 1999 when we fought at 16K ft above sea level. if they attack...we will be fighting a army...but they will be fighting a nation of a billion people...tyhat will make the confrontation long drawn and bloody and chinese state media can only hide so much. but more importantly...now we are a nuclear triad with second strike capability...they try to capture tawang...beijing and shanghai comes under risk of our SLBMs. why waste resources on a war where victory might not amount to anything when you can enjoy a huge trade surplus with india instead? had there been a sane leader , galwan or doklam wudnt have happened...its because of china is now under a emperor thet things are going haywire!

as far as pakistan is concerned...their military is one of the most corrupt ones in history. india is a bogey but their real love is dollars and not kashmir. war only makes them look bad given that they will fight wars on many fronts, internal and external! that will kill the golden goose that is the 4 provinces of pakistan...why wud they want war? and in case they fire a tactical nuke at us...they know that india may not go to war but daily life will be hell in that country. pakistani military will defend their country...but only until they have sucked it bone dry!

 

[TopWatcher]

PLA is a conscriptionbased service that operates mostly on occupied terrain that were never part of mainland China. in an event of war...india can cut off the supply lines or cause enugh damage to critical infra. compared to thet indian army is a voluntary army who have fought and won against greater odds. people oftenforget that in 1965, pakistani military was technoogically superior than india. they lost because of our soldiers, and the same was for 1962, 1971 and 1999 when we fought at 16K ft above sea level. if they attack...we will be fighting a army...but they will be fighting a nation of a billion people...tyhat will make the confrontation long drawn and bloody and chinese state media can only hide so much. but more importantly...now we are a nuclear triad with second strike capability...they try to capture tawang...beijing and shanghai comes under risk of our SLBMs. why waste resources on a war where victory might not amount to anything when you can enjoy a huge trade surplus with india instead? had there been a sane leader , galwan or doklam wudnt have happened...its because of china is now under a emperor thet things are going haywire!

as far as pakistan is concerned...their military is one of the most corrupt ones in history. india is a bogey but their real love is dollars and not kashmir. war only makes them look bad given that they will fight wars on many fronts, internal and external! that will kill the golden goose that is the 4 provinces of pakistan...why wud they want war? and in case they fire a tactical nuke at us...they know that india may not go to war but daily life will be hell in that country. pakistani military will defend their country...but only until they have sucked it bone dry!

I am not a expert. But you explain it in a great way.