India-China Border conflict

[Jimih]

Pangong Tso

 

[mist_consecutive]

Pangong Tso

Ahh, another random uncultured gora voicing his uninformed opinion on something he does not understand.

Apart from the satellite images in the tweet, every other word is garbage.

 

[Jimih]

Ahh, another random uncultured gora voicing his uninformed opinion on something he does not understand.

Apart from the satellite images in the tweet, every other word is garbage.

But nothing tops India’s dual blunder in vacating the Kailash Heights and accepting China's one sided "buffer zones" in three Ladakh sectors.

It seems that from the Image that China has consolidated its land grabs and expanded in Pangong Tso area.

 

[Knowitall]

But nothing tops India’s dual blunder in vacating the Kailash Heights and accepting China's one sided "buffer zones" in three Ladakh sectors.

It seems that from the Image that China has consolidated its land grabs and expanded in Pangong Tso area.

The zikyen pass area seems to be practically lost too since they have a base and all weather road till the top. Our roads are still around 30 km behind.

 

[mist_consecutive]

But nothing tops India’s dual blunder in vacating the Kailash Heights and accepting China's one sided "buffer zones" in three Ladakh sectors.

Kailash's disengagement was not a blunder. There is not a single person till now who has given a credible argument on why it was a blunder.
All of their "sources" of understanding seem to originate from the underside of Panag, Shukla, and Sawhney.

It seems that from the Image that China has consolidated its land grabs and expanded in Pangong Tso area.

Yeah, that is why I called it out "garbage". Sensational news preying on vulnerable Indian minds. Chinese on their own side. The construction you see in the image is Sirijap. Both Chinese and Indian sides have till now meticulously followed the buffer zone in every sector.

 

[Knowitall]

Kailash's disengagement was not a blunder. There is not a single person till now who has given a credible argument on why it was a blunder.
All of their "sources" of understanding seem to originate from the underside of Panag, Shukla, and Sawhney.



Yeah, that is why I called it out "garbage". Sensational news preying on vulnerable Indian minds. Chinese on their own side. The construction you see in the image is Sirijap. Both Chinese and Indian sides have till now meticulously followed the buffer zone in every sector.

What about despang and other disengagement areas which the chinese still control?

Credible argument was already given by a lot of people we should not have given up on those heights without securing a complete withdrawal first.

By making it zonal issue we let the chinese get away with other incursions.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Reliance Jio in Chusul by next year.

The zikyen pass area seems to be practically lost too since they have a base and all weather road till the top. Our roads are still around 30 km behind.

There are multiple such valleys in Arunachal Pradesh where China practically has access to the top using metalled road and our boys have to trek for 3-days to the top.

It is just unfair to us given the geography and population habitat. Opposite Arunachal Pradesh, Nyngchi/Tsang Po (Brahmaputra) valley has always been a religious and population hotspot, so their infrastructure and connectivity were already in place.
On this side of Arunachal Pradesh, remote tropical Jungles and extremely scarce population density had no incentive to develop these areas.

Now that we have started developing this area out of China's fear, it will still take us around 10 more years to connect all the valleys.

What about despang and other disengagement areas which the chinese still control?

No disengagement or buffer zone is created there. They just came earlier than us and are squatting on the disputed territory like farmers on the Singhu border. If you want to kick them out, there will be war. We don't want war because war is bad for the economy and we don't have a clear advantage against China.

 

[Jimih]

Kailash's disengagement was not a blunder. There is not a single person till now who has given a credible argument on why it was a blunder.
All of their "sources" of understanding seem to originate from the underside of Panag, Shukla, and Sawhney.

Here is the Argument:

By withdrawing from the Kailash Range heights held by the SFF in return for minor pullback by the PLA from Fingers 3 and 4 on the Pangong Tso, India not only lost the several important vantage points, but the Modi government the negotiating leverage to obtain the PLA’s withdrawal from the Y-Junction on the Depsang Plains.

The strategic advantage the Indian Army had gained by the SFF occupying the heights of the Rezang La - Rechin La ridge on the Kailash Range is lost without the PLA withdrawing to east of the Khurnak Fort line where the Indian claims lie, rather than only some distance from Finger 8 on the northern shore of the Pangong Lake to the Sirijap Plain. And the Chinese continue to obstruct Indian patrols seeking legitimately to access Indian territory northwest-wards of the Y-Junction.


Reality is, over 1,000 sq miles of Indian territory northeast of the Y-Junction in the Depsang Plains in eastern Ladakh has been de facto annexed by the Chinese PLA.

 

[Knowitall]

Reliance Jio in Chusul by next year.




There are multiple such valleys in Arunachal Pradesh where China practically has access to the top using metalled road and our boys have to trek for 3-days to the top.

It is just unfair to us given the geography and population habitat. Opposite Arunachal Pradesh, Nyngchi/Tsang Po (Brahmaputra) valley has always been a religious and population hotspot, so their infrastructure and connectivity were already in place.
On this side of Arunachal Pradesh, remote tropical Jungles and extremely scarce population density had no incentive to develop these areas.

Now that we have started developing this area out of China's fear, it will still take us around 10 more years to connect all the valleys.



No disengagement or buffer zone is created there. They just came earlier than us and are squatting on the disputed territory like farmers on the Singhu border. If you want to kick them out, there will be war. We don't want war because war is bad for the economy and we don't have a clear advantage against China.

No disengagement or buffer zone is created there. They just came earlier than us and are squatting on the disputed territory like farmers on the Singhu border. If you want to kick them out, there will be war. We don't want war because war is bad for the economy and we don't have a clear advantage against China.

This exactly.

India's failure to leverage kailash range properly has lead to this situation. Rather than dealing with every sector individually we should have dealt with sector in it's entirety.

All the heights captured during op snow leopard including kailash ranges should have been held until the entire sector was back to the previous status quo.

The govt on the other hand ended up due to bad optics from all those sat images of pangong tso hastily agreed for the withdrawal while brushing the other issues under the carpet. The result is that the chinese took 4 steps forward and then were forced to take 2 steps backward by our actions.

The end result ends up as chinese victory because the chinese are still 2 steps forward. With the next two years having multiple elections finally leading to 2024 the govt will simply not raise this issue anymore while the media will busy focusing on elections where our HM can proudly milk Balakot strikes for eternity.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Here is the Argument:

By withdrawing from the Kailash Range heights held by the SFFs in return for minor pullback by the PLA from Fingers 3 and 4 on the Pangong Tso, India not only lost the several important vantage points, but the Modi government the negotiating leverage to obtain the PLA’s withdrawal from the Y-Junction on the Depsang Plains.

The strategic advantage the Indian Army had gained by the SFF occupying the heights of the Rezang La - Rechin La ridge on the Kailash Range is lost without the PLA withdrawing to east of the Khurnak Fort line where the Indian claims lie, rather than only some distance from Finger 8 on the northern shore of the Pangong Lake to the Sirijap Plain. And the Chinese continue to obstruct Indian patrols seeking legitimately to access Indian territory northwest-wards of the Y-Junction.


Reality is, over 1,000 sq miles of Indian territory northeast of the Y-Junction in the Depsang Plains in eastern Ladakh has been de facto annexed by the Chinese PLA.

Before I answer this, few realities people don't realize -

• The area between fingers 2 & 3 (Maj. Dhan Singh Thapa Post), and till finger 4 of Chinese control was essentially lost due because the Chinese were occupying all the heights. That area is roughly 4km X 3km in size. Even without the area, the strategic significance is access to F4 gives China a direct line of sight to the whole Pangong Tso lake on our side.
  
  
• China captured some peaks of South Pangong Tso as well. This gave them a direct line of sight to Chusul village and the road connecting Merak-Chusul-Rezang La. Even at Rezang La, the Chinese were able to wrestle away some vantage points from us, taking control of a few hilltops at Rechin La.
  
  
• In the areas where we captured (Rezang La), China brought out more than 200 tanks, our side had hardly 50 total. They were like flies on fresh crap. Not to mention their tanks (Type 99) had superior firepower and armor than ours (T-90).
  
  
  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I have set the ground reality, let's start.

By withdrawing from the Kailash Range heights held by the SFFs in return for minor pullback by the PLA from Fingers 3 and 4 on the Pangong Tso, India not only lost the several important vantage points, but the Modi government the negotiating leverage to obtain the PLA’s withdrawal from the Y-Junction on the Depsang Plains.

"Modi govt" ? Not "Indian Army" ? See the obvious attack towards the ruling party ? From wherever you copy-pasted (worse, wrote yourself) this argument, the author clearly had the intention of blaming the ruling party.

First question comes, why do people think we had a disproportionate advantage ? As I clarified above, our advantage was not that great as perceived. We cannot barter a Depsang, Y-Junc against such a small advantage.

The strategic advantage the Indian Army had gained by the SFF occupying the heights of the Rezang La - Rechin La ridge on the Kailash Range is lost without the PLA withdrawing to east of the Khurnak Fort line where the Indian claims lie, rather than only some distance from Finger 8 on the northern shore of the Pangong Lake to the Sirijap Plain. And the Chinese continue to obstruct Indian patrols seeking legitimately to access Indian territory northwest-wards of the Y-Junction.

Yeah, why not ask them to leave Tibet and request Xi Jinping to become personal slave of Modi ? We indeed lost the negotiating leverage.

Simple logic -

• In Pangong Tso, China already captured F3, F4. Dominated over F2, Yellow Bump, Gurung Hill.
• In Gogra, China already captured ~2km of PP15, and is at a vastly advantageous position in Hotspring and Gogra.
• At Depsang, China is already occupying Y-Junc-area and is in an advantageous position in DBO.

This amounts to, 12sq. km at F3-F4, + 2.5sq. km at Gogra + ??.km (< 225sq. km) at Y-Junc (correct your 1000sq.km propaganda).

Vs.

• Dominated over Maggar Hills (Spanggur Gap) & Rezang La with limited success.
• Tit-for-tat positions at F2 to minimize advantage at F3-F4.

Really? Is this a fair bargain to strike? Are the Chinese, Indian Army, or GoI blind or the propagandist slinging mud at ruling parties blind ?

 

[mokoman]

Ahh, another random uncultured gora voicing his uninformed opinion on something he does not understand.

Apart from the satellite images in the tweet, every other word is garbage.

dont say that , 1 white idiot = 10 indians

nevermind he is putting out months old news.

Before I answer this, few realities people don't realize -

• The area between fingers 2 & 3 (Maj. Dhan Singh Thapa Post), and till finger 4 of Chinese control was essentially lost due because the Chinese were occupying all the heights. That area is roughly 4km X 3km in size. Even without the area, the strategic significance is access to F4 gives China a direct line of sight to the whole Pangong Tso lake on our side.
  
  
• China captured some peaks of South Pangong Tso as well. This gave them a direct line of sight to Chusul village and the road connecting Merak-Chusul-Rezang La. Even at Rezang La, the Chinese were able to wrestle away some vantage points from us, taking control of a few hilltops at Rechin La.
  
  
• In the areas where we captured (Rezang La), China brought out more than 200 tanks, our side had hardly 50 total. They were like flies on fresh crap. Not to mention their tanks (Type 99) had superior firepower and armor than ours (T-90).
  
  
  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I have set the ground reality, let's start.



"Modi govt" ? Not "Indian Army" ? See the obvious attack towards the ruling party ? From wherever you copy-pasted (worse, wrote yourself) this argument, the author clearly had the intention of blaming the ruling party.

First question comes, why do people think we had a disproportionate advantage ? As I clarified above, our advantage was not that great as perceived. We cannot barter a Depsang, Y-Junc against such a small advantage.



Yeah, why not ask them to leave Tibet and request Xi Jinping to become personal slave of Modi ? We indeed lost the negotiating leverage.

Simple logic -

• In Pangong Tso, China already captured F3, F4. Dominated over F2, Yellow Bump, Gurung Hill.
• In Gogra, China already captured ~2km of PP15, and is at a vastly advantageous position in Hotspring and Gogra.
• At Depsang, China is already occupying Y-Junc-area and is in an advantageous position in DBO.

This amounts to, 12sq. km at F3-F4, + 2.5sq. km at Gogra + ??.km (< 225sq. km) at Y-Junc (correct your 1000sq.km propaganda).

Vs.

• Dominated over Maggar Hills (Spanggur Gap) & Rezang La with limited success.
• Tit-for-tat positions at F2 to minimize advantage at F3-F4.

Really? Is this a fair bargain to strike? Are the Chinese, Indian Army, or GoI blind or the propagandist slinging mud at ruling parties blind ?

good summary ,

just want to add that they dont need depsang to threaten DBO .

What about despang and other disengagement areas which the chinese still control?

Credible argument was already given by a lot of people we should not have given up on those heights without securing a complete withdrawal first.

By making it zonal issue we let the chinese get away with other incursions.

there is still only minimal presence in depsang yjunc . maybe chinese are willing to disengage from there.

only question maybe what the final buffer zone will look like

news said that 14th india-china lac talks was to be in december.

if that talks dont take place - good chance that we will take action

Spoiler

y u guys laughing , we will.

 

[Jimih]

Before I answer this, few realities people don't realize -

• The area between fingers 2 & 3 (Maj. Dhan Singh Thapa Post), and till finger 4 of Chinese control was essentially lost due because the Chinese were occupying all the heights. That area is roughly 4km X 3km in size. Even without the area, the strategic significance is access to F4 gives China a direct line of sight to the whole Pangong Tso lake on our side.
  
  
• China captured some peaks of South Pangong Tso as well. This gave them a direct line of sight to Chusul village and the road connecting Merak-Chusul-Rezang La. Even at Rezang La, the Chinese were able to wrestle away some vantage points from us, taking control of a few hilltops at Rechin La.
  
  
• In the areas where we captured (Rezang La), China brought out more than 200 tanks, our side had hardly 50 total. They were like flies on fresh crap. Not to mention their tanks (Type 99) had superior firepower and armor than ours (T-90).
  
  
  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I have set the ground reality, let's start.



"Modi govt" ? Not "Indian Army" ? See the obvious attack towards the ruling party ? From wherever you copy-pasted (worse, wrote yourself) this argument, the author clearly had the intention of blaming the ruling party.

First question comes, why do people think we had a disproportionate advantage ? As I clarified above, our advantage was not that great as perceived. We cannot barter a Depsang, Y-Junc against such a small advantage.



Yeah, why not ask them to leave Tibet and request Xi Jinping to become personal slave of Modi ? We indeed lost the negotiating leverage.

Simple logic -

• In Pangong Tso, China already captured F3, F4. Dominated over F2, Yellow Bump, Gurung Hill.
• In Gogra, China already captured ~2km of PP15, and is at a vastly advantageous position in Hotspring and Gogra.
• At Depsang, China is already occupying Y-Junc-area and is in an advantageous position in DBO.

This amounts to, 12sq. km at F3-F4, + 2.5sq. km at Gogra + ??.km (< 225sq. km) at Y-Junc (correct your 1000sq.km propaganda).

Vs.

• Dominated over Maggar Hills (Spanggur Gap) & Rezang La with limited success.
• Tit-for-tat positions at F2 to minimize advantage at F3-F4.

Really? Is this a fair bargain to strike? Are the Chinese, Indian Army, or GoI blind or the propagandist slinging mud at ruling parties blind ?

Listen, Modi govt is not holier than thou. If it has done some blunders than it is okay to point it out.

Everytime come running in high speed to defend some erratic policies of the govt will not do good for the national security. 90% of the times I defend Modi govt on DFI.

Not disagreeing on your counter-argument of bartering Y-junction in Depsang plains is not viable. And yes 1000 sq kms is far streched. That figure can be much less, not denying that.

Already, after 13 rounds of corps comanders talks, it appears as though India might have conceded Hot Springs and the Depsang Plains to China, so it should come as no surprise that the Chinese are now asserting themselves in the Eastern Sector (ARP)

PM Modi is a realist about Indian military capabilities and aware of the difficulty of forcibly removing the PLA from Indian land.

GoI and IA were all aware of the Chinese ingress well inside Indian territory for quite some time. They did not want to publicly complain because the hue and cry over lost territory would only pressure the Modi government to try something the Indian Army is not capable of at this moment (see I have now roped IA too) and hence that it was sensible to say and do nothing and this was also the logic behind Modi’s original statement, “koi andar nahi ghusa”.

Why Y-Junction is important?

Here PLA’s blockade of the Y-Junction has rendered the area northwest-wards of it inaccessible to Indian patrols hence enabling China to bring this vital piece of land within its control without contesting India’s claims. This area adjoins the Xinjiang Highway whose branch the CPEC which is south of the nearby Karakoram Pass and hence is of strategic value. The Indian army cannot forcibly evict the PLA from their for obvious reasons.

The only credit I will give to Modi govt:

PLA’s buildup and aggressive manuevers along the LAC were insufficient to get Modi to buckle under pressure as Beijing had hoped would happen.

The next best option will be that both Modi and Xi mend ways together with Putin's intervention so that both leaders can ‘save face’.

 

[India Super Power]

So y junction is gone
May I know which are the places where we removed Chinese

 

[mist_consecutive]

Listen, Modi govt is not holier than thou. If it has done some blunders than it is okay to point it out.

Everytime come running in high speed to defend some erratic policies of the govt will not do good for the national security. 90% of the times I defend Modi govt on DFI.

Not disagreeing on your counter-argument of bartering Y-junction in Depsang plains is not viable. And yes 1000 sq kms is far streched. That figure can be much less, not denying that.

Already, after 13 rounds of corps comanders talks, it appears as though India might have conceded Hot Springs and the Depsang Plains to China, so it should come as no surprise that the Chinese are now asserting themselves in the Eastern Sector (ARP)

PM Modi is a realist about Indian military capabilities and aware of the difficulty of forcibly removing the PLA from Indian land.

GoI and IA were all aware of the Chinese ingress well inside Indian territory for quite some time. They did not want to publicly complain because the hue and cry over lost territory would only pressure the Modi government to try something the Indian Army is not capable of at this moment (see I have now roped IA too) and hence that it was sensible to say and do nothing and this was also the logic behind Modi’s original statement, “koi andar nahi ghusa”.

Why Y-Junction is important?

Here PLA’s blockade of the Y-Junction has rendered the area northwest-wards of it inaccessible to Indian patrols hence enabling China to bring this vital piece of land within its control without contesting India’s claims. This area adjoins the Xinjiang Highway whose branch the CPEC which is south of the nearby Karakoram Pass and hence is of strategic value. The Indian army cannot forcibly evict the PLA from their for obvious reasons.

The only credit I will give to Modi govt:

PLA’s buildup and aggressive manuevers along the LAC were insufficient to get Modi to buckle under pressure as Beijing had hoped would happen.

The next best option will be that both Modi and Xi mend ways together with Putin's intervention so that both leaders can ‘save face’.

I thought we were discussing the blunder of disengagement of Pangong Tso. When did it convert to Modi bashing debate? Agree to all other points, I am not a BJP/Modi loyalist, but seeing people blaming Modi for each and everything bad in India is unfortunate.

Why Y-Junction is important?

Here PLA’s blockade of the Y-Junction has rendered the area northwest-wards of it inaccessible to Indian patrols hence enabling China to bring this vital piece of land within its control without contesting India’s claims. This area adjoins the Xinjiang Highway whose branch the CPEC which is south of the nearby Karakoram Pass and hence is of strategic value. The Indian army cannot forcibly evict the PLA from their for obvious reasons.

Y-Junc is important, no doubt. I will in fact question, why there was no physical presence of either Army/ITBP beyond Burtse point? The whole area beyond Y-Junc is basically deserted and out of our control due to the lack of any infrastructure, whereas China has built metalled roads through the eastern part.

This was waiting to happen. If you don't occupy and use your land, someone else will grab it sooner or later.

 

[Jimih]

I thought we were discussing the blunder of disengagement of Pangong Tso. When did it convert to Modi bashing debate? Agree to all other points, I am not a BJP/Modi loyalist, but seeing people blaming Modi for each and everything bad in India is unfortunate.

You thought that I was spewing some propaganda against GoI, as you pointed out in your first reply, which in fact I was not. I simply overstated the captured land area figure.

But now your explanations in later posts has cleared some of my doubts about the current situation.

So no hard feelings.

 

[The Shrike]

The thing is the August 20 end operation in Pangong So/Kailash area (and maybe the app ban?) was the only thing we did to manoeuvre into a better position at the negotiating table. Now that the card has been played and the larger situation is no where close to resolution - the question at hand now is what comes next and what are we doing about it?

Spoiler: And the answer is...

I have no fking clue... are they laying low waiting for something or slowly cucking out or are they just simple pretending that there is no problem at all. Neither is the government being transparent nor can one see a coherent policy in play.

 

[mokoman]

The thing is the August 20 end operation in Pangong So/Kailash area (and maybe the app ban?) was the only thing we did to manoeuvre into a better position at the negotiating table. Now that the card has been played and the larger situation is no where close to resolution - the question at hand now is what comes next and what are we doing about it?

Spoiler: And the answer is...

View attachment 127385

I have no fking clue... are they laying low waiting for something or slowly cucking out or are they just simple pretending that there is no problem at all. Neither is the government being transparent nor can one see a coherent policy in play.

if u been following sat images , deployment news , i think its pretty obvious what will


happen , next step is 14th india-china LAC talks ,


which is supposed to take place this week.


and if chinese wont move back we will go for a suprise in January ,


this will be the time when winter hits peak in eastern ladakh , i am 100% sure we will


ask for 15th india-china LAC talks , but this time , we will make additional plans ,


in case talks fails , we will then already moved troops and armour ,


but we also will reinforce arunachal pradesh then we will


ask for 16th india - china LAC talks , at this point its April , winter is over ,


all passes are open , best time for


17th india - china LAC talks ,


for 18thh

 

[The Shrike]

if u been following sat images , deployment news , i think its pretty obvious what will


happen , next step is 14th india-china LAC talks ,


which is supposed to take place this week.


and if chinese wont move back we will go for a suprise in January ,


this will be the time when winter hits peak in eastern ladakh , i am 100% sure we will


ask for 15th india-china LAC talks , but this time , we will make additional plans ,


in case talks fails , we will then already moved troops and armour ,


but we also will reinforce arunachal pradesh then we will


ask for 16th india - china LAC talks , at this point its April , winter is over ,


all passes are open , best time for


17th india - china LAC talks ,


for 18thh

If anyone has noticed Mudi-ji is back to his clean trimmed look, it was said he would not trim his beard until the China situation is resolved - So I think we should take that as a sign?

 

[The Shrike]

India vs China Mountain Warfare. Lt Gen Ravi Shankar I Aadi P 4

 

[Knowitall]

The thing is the August 20 end operation in Pangong So/Kailash area (and maybe the app ban?) was the only thing we did to manoeuvre into a better position at the negotiating table. Now that the card has been played and the larger situation is no where close to resolution - the question at hand now is what comes next and what are we doing about it?

Spoiler: And the answer is...

View attachment 127385

I have no fking clue... are they laying low waiting for something or slowly cucking out or are they just simple pretending that there is no problem at all. Neither is the government being transparent nor can one see a coherent policy in play.

With the ever increasing imports and slow normalisation of indo-china ties. It might be safe to say that the border issue is done and dusted for the next few years.