India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[LETHALFORCE]

You want them to favour IND before CHN.
Russia's exports to CHN : 50 billion
Russia's exports to IND : 5 billion

Why would they?

you are right it is obvious what side they are on. Maybe we should look at what nations give us the most money in foreign exchange and act accordingly? I am sure Russia is not even in top 20 nations.

 

[Sehwag213]

From BRF

 

[garg_bharat]

I think Russians are betraying India . They must have known about this but never mentioned anything to India? There was even talk of Russia being involved in CPEC.

China Wants Russia To Calm India And Save CPEC
[URL
unfurl="true"]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2017/01/08/china-wants-russia-to-calm-india-and-save-cpec/amp/[/URL]

Russia’s Interest In Pakistani Power Projects Could Portend CPEC Investments - Obortunity

Source: EurasiaFuture Date: 17/1/2019 Author: Andrew Korybko Reports are circulating in the Pakistani press that the Russian company is interested in several power projects in the country, which could pave the way for Moscow to unofficially invest in CPEC without angering its Indian partners...

obortunity.org

Pakistan’s Role in Russia’s Greater Eurasian Partnership

Connectivity is one of the key trends of the 21st century, which Russia is fully embracing with its Greater Eurasian Partnership (GEP) in order to counteract the chaotic processes unleashed throughout the course of the ongoing systemic transition from unipolarity to multipolarity. This outlook...

www.google.com

think Russians are betraying India . They must have known about Chinese plans but never mentioned anything to India? There was even talk of Russia being involved in CPEC.

We must stop looking at issues from a narrow angle. Russia is correct in its own way. It faces an existential challenge from West and NATO. For Russia, Eurasian project makes perfect sense.

Russia investing in Pakistan seems illogical to us but somewhere deep down Russia fears India's western tilt. India's policies have been inconsistent and sloppy. As I said before, India is trying to sail in two boats at the same time, boats which are sailing in opposite directions.

The only option for India from this predicament is massive indigenous MIC. However so far it is military bureaucracy that is coming in the way. There was a time when everybody conveniently blamed DRDO/PSU. Now military, specially army is failing to buy from private sector as well.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

We must stop looking at issues from a narrow angle. Russia is correct in its own way. It faces an existential challenge from West and NATO. For Russia, Eurasian project makes perfect sense.

Russia investing in Pakistan seems illogical to us but somewhere deep down Russia fears India's western tilt. India's policies have been inconsistent and sloppy. As I said before, India is trying to sail in two boats at the same time, boats which are sailing in opposite directions.

The only option for India from this predicament is massive indigenous MIC. However so far it is military bureaucracy that is coming in the way. There was a time when everybody conveniently blamed DRDO/PSU. Now military, specially army is failing to buy from private sector as well.

I think Russians feel we are in western camp and they have entrenched themselves in Chinese and pak nexus even before we were? No matter how many weapons we buy from them it will make no difference

 

[fire starter]

I think Russians feel we are in western camp and they have entrenched themselves in Chinese and pak nexus

poor Russians now they remained super power only on propaganda.

 

[Sehwag213]

poor Russians now they remained super power only on propaganda.

No need to blame.
West has forced them to choose China just like China is forcing India to choose USA.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

poor Russians now they remained super power only on propaganda.

Russians have nuclear weapons and some outdated weaponry and oil . Not much else.

 

[Bhadra]

intelligence failure is definetly always the excuse for India’s security lapses . There were no mines even planted on the borders. But if we are a big customer for a sanctioned and hated nation they should at least value us more.

Intelligence failures have not been excuses but reality.We can not cover that up by calling it as an excuse...

If Indian Intelligence agencies have no inclination for and expertise in Military intelligence, they should simply leave that job to the three Services intelligence agencies which exist only in name due to lack of mandates and funds.

It can be agreed that Indian intelligence agencies have their hands fulls in indulging in internal politics and managing internal actors. looking after the political fortunes of the political parties, harassing political opponents and indulging in all sorts of illegal activities. That is what fetches them money, power, promotions and blackmailing capabilities. What will military intelligence faetch them// Nothing..

Hece GoI must claerly mandate the three services for military intelligence, empower and make them capable by making adequate funds at their disposal rather than allowing the existing agencies to undercut them, degrade them and even scare the authorities and politicians with them a la TSD.

Military intelligence is too sensitive a subject to be left with IB or R&AW. It has been proved beyond doubt too many times..

 

[LETHALFORCE]

No need to blame.
West has forced them to choose China just like China is forcing India to choose USA.

They have no choice very few nations want to have anything to do with them. India is not force more of a choice. Russia never brought India out of poverty placed it further; while trade with the west has. Just in the last decade an Indian middle class has emerged that has never existed before

.

 

[ezsasa]

poor Russians now they remained super power only on propaganda.

the fact that Russians spoiled murica’s Syria plan and currently undermining NATO’s central Africa plan using their “military advisors” means Russians maybe down but not out.

 

[Sehwag213]

They have handed over their country to China.

 

[fire starter]

Intelligence failures have not been excuses but reality.We can not cover that up by calling it as an excuse...

If Indian Intelligence agencies have no inclination for and expertise in Military intelligence, they should simply leave that job to the three Services intelligence agencies which exist only in name due to lack of mandates and funds.

It can be agreed that Indian intelligence agencies have their hands fulls in indulging in internal politics and managing internal actors. looking after the political fortunes of the political parties, harassing political opponents and indulging in all sorts of illegal activities. That is what fetches them money, power, promotions and blackmailing capabilities. What will military intelligence faetch them// Nothing..

Hece GoI must claerly mandate the three services for military intelligence, empower and make them capable by making adequate funds at their disposal rather than allowing the existing agencies to undercut them, degrade them and even scare the authorities and politicians with them a la TSD.

Military intelligence is too sensitive a subject to be left with IB or R&AW. It has been proved beyond doubt too many times..

RAW and IB is full of IPS officers who only have experience in catching thiefs.

 

[fire starter]

 

[garg_bharat]

I think Russians feel we are in western camp and they have entrenched themselves in Chinese and pak nexus even before we were? No matter how many weapons we buy from them it will make no difference

West want to see Russia gone. I have listened to discussions and read many articles. Unfortunately West is also not correct in its approach.

This is pushing Russia in a direction which is actually short term benefit for long term loss.

The rigid attitude of people (and inability to listen to other's viewpoint) always results in war.

 

[ezsasa]

West want to see Russia gone. I have listened to discussions and read many articles. Unfortunately West is also not correct in its approach.

This is pushing Russia in a direction which is actually short term benefit for long term loss.

The rigid attitude of people (and inability to listen to other's viewpoint) always results in war.

i may be missing some information but if i recall correctly russia was on path to rehabilitation with the west before obama tried to undermine putin in russia's internal politics(using "pussy riot" type activists), putin got pissed off and everything went south after that ex-russian spy got poisoned in britain.

obama & merkel played childish games with putin after that incident, as a consequence pushed russia firmly into chinese orbit.

 

[Bhadra]

RAW and IB is full of IPS officers who only have experience in catching thiefs.

That is very superficial observation ... but in essence correct.

In the military intelligence arena both R&AW and IB tend to be bookish and academic rather than experts in understanding military intelligence per say. Their analysts are very weak in picking up information that effect military aspects particularly related to terrain and force capabilities though their won cadre officers are made to spend time in border areas.

Our IB and R&AW mostly rely on academicians and Western Think tanks on knowing about the Armed Forces and their capabilities of our adversaries. A report by RAND or MIT becomes intelligence and they then circulate that as their intelligence.

They mostly employ retired Army Officers as analysts who have no incentives to do a good job of it - no increments. no promotions, no recognition, no appreciation. If any one is interested in doing a good job = he is no allowed to do so... Their is no value of military intelligence in the system.. it is just to score a tick at appropriate column.. and as a syndrome called "Save Your Ass"

No intelligence officer ever attends a military course to understand things military - they are all super strategicians... Next to Chanakya..

Military intelligence is far from being bookish and trying to know the colour of General Hu's underwear.. it is rather trying to know the grade of lubricants the Chinese AFVs are using to stay alive in Tibet..

 

[Synergy]

As I said there is nothing much we can do about Pakistan as they have nuclear weapons. And as long as they exist they will try to destroy us by hook or crook . Unless India is ready to nuke them completely we can't do much about them. Also sir ji many countries give weapons to Pakistan both from USA and EU. They have f16, french submarines, Sweden AWACS etc Italy Leonardo Equipments, etc. and they to this day provide spare to them. China is trying to use them to get more territory . And unlike 2013 where they came unprepared (we still lost some territory) this time they came full prepared to fight. They wouldn't do much other than small skirmish like 1967 to thin our forces along lac and uses Pakistan to advance into Kashmir and Ladakh. Pakistan would have the backing of chinese airforce . Nonetheless as I said I have trust in army but not our airforce due to there lower numbers compare to Chinese . Just imagine what would happen if Chinese put 100s of jets in Pakistan . Chinese jet will not suffer from payload/range in Pakistan. Our entire startegy is that Chinese jets can't take off with higher payloads and fuel , but using Pakistan changes that. As i said no strategic thinking , no vision for future.

bro, instead of Pak having nukes, we have conducted surgical strike and Balakot.
presently Pak is doomed and fighting for their own existence. presently they even won't be able to fight heightened Baluchistan and GB insurgency (if any).

secondly, why are you thinking our military planners that dumb that they haven't war gamed some 100/200 Chinese fighters in Pak when we can easily assume that?

next, if they will thin our forces along LAC then we will also do that to them. and I think at least we will be able to maintain a good number to defend that territory. will they able to field 1:9 or 1:6 or at least 1:3 ratio?

next, if they try small skirmishes like 1967, what if we heat up whole LAC? will they be able to field required number when there are 3+1 ACs in SCS?

next, if we choke Malacca streight, will they even be able to come there?

and many more...

 

[Knowitall]

i may be missing some information but if i recall correctly russia was on path to rehabilitation with the west before obama tried to undermine putin in russia's internal politics(using "pussy riot" type activists), putin got pissed off and everything went south after that ex-russian spy got poisoned in britain.

obama & merkel played childish games with putin after that incident, as a consequence pushed russia firmly into chinese orbit.

No you are correct overall Russia did once try to join NATO and was even considered a partner till 1990-2000 decade.

The thing is only Stalin understood how important this was join NATO and eventually throw US out of europe.

Putin too made some half-hearted attempts but US and later Russian invasion of Georgia made sure none of this even became a reality.

 

[ARVION]

Blimp in South Chin Seas ?

 

[Synergy]

lots of people are dreaming about western jets rather then realizing the groud reality. indigenous Tejas is more valuable then western maal. Tejas has set the platform in our country for next gen fighters.

we should follow the model of France. they abandoned the development of 5th gen fighter all-together and now they are going straight for 6th gen fighter.

we should do the same, lca tejas mk2 is fine and needed to fill in numbers. but abandoned mwf, tedbf, orca etc and go straight for 6th gen fighters. we should start investing on it today.

get real noobs

yes, get real noobs.

fyki, even Tejas isn't fully developed yet. we need some 42 squadrons and we have some 30 or so. this 42 squadron requirement is old estimate. China and Pak is not as they were 20 years ago. so presently if we calculate again, that result might be, we need some 60 or so (just saying).

now which ac will fill that gap?

what's the production rate of Tejas? how long it will take to fill that number gap?

an M.Phil student can start PhD. but can a class 10 student do the same?
can we even build an engine to power a Tejas?
mwf, tedbf/orca is our class 12, graduation, masters.

actually how many 5th gen fighters (not claimed but developed) are there?

6th gen fighters are nothing but 5th gen fighters with many added features. France and Germany is making many world class fighters for a long time. they might have technical expertise to go for 6th gen but we don't have.

even Tejas is still juggad.

get real noobs.