India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[BeEverVectorMan]

Please do reveal the name of that person.

Definitely few days back an article had come regarding this will update it here for all to read

 

[utubekhiladi]

 

[Thundering13th]

Sir ji don't underestimate them. There some of Sukhoi copies have aesa radars and many j10 got aesa radar. There new missile got dual pulse motor which we don't have. There aircrafts are as good as us if not better. And you think Chinese don't have Sam , our Sam are ancient. Akash , spyder are modern but there number is small. Mrsam has already arrived but it's number is even smaller .

Sir why are you looking to match the chinese weapon to weapon ? China will always have adv. Their economy is huge. We must focus on our strength rather than their's. We must get our act together otherwise no amount of weapon will help us. Remember this is high altitude warfare... all the big money weapons will have min effect. It's the inf which will make the difference in high altitude warfare

 

[LDev]

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/02/17/the-trials-in-ladakh

Late 1980s scenario

Selective quoting ....


1 MECH INF was to take over the 20 BMPs (Infantry Combat Vehicle) of the ad hoc mechanised force already in Ladakh. We had to induct 32 BMP and three Armoured Recovery Vehicles(ARV).

Tanks and BMPs were moved to the various areas to validate their performance. BMPs also crossed the Pangong Tso to validate the amphibious capability. Terrain similar to the operational area in the rear areas was utilised to conduct field exercises

Standard operating procedures (SOP) for technical maintenance and preservation of the equipment in extreme cold temperatures were evolved.
The Russian-origin tanks and BMPs were tailormade for cold temperatures as long as the correct procedures were followed.

At extreme cold temperatures, special oils and lubricants have to be used. The equipment must be stored in sheds during peacetime. Before starting the tanks and BMPs, pre-heaters were used to raise the oil pressure. If this was not done, the engine would wear out (particularly accessories like the air compressor). The ad hoc mechanised force was following the practice normal for wheeled vehicles of starting the engines every night for 1.5 to 2 hours, to prevent the oil and lubes and the coolant from congealing/freezing and keeping the batteries charged. While even in wheeled vehicles this is a wrong practice – tailormade oils/coolants and batteries for sub-zero temperatures are available and pre-heaters thin the congealed oil – but for tanks and BMPs, it was a disaster as engine life is measured in hours and not kilometres.

Engine life of the 20 BMPs of the ad hoc force had been considerably reduced and a large number of compressors had packed up

. I refused to accept the logic advanced and did a detailed study. I found that pre-heaters were not being used. In fact, drivers were not aware that they existed. Thus, the oil pressure never reached the requisite levels and was not adequately thinned to pass through narrow tubes leading to various components. Also, the basic starting method in tanks and BMPs is the ‘air start’ or ‘air cum battery start’ – the air stored in a cylinder fires the engine and in the latter case, there’s also an electric spark. In emergencies, when the air cylinder is empty, a battery start with fully charged batteries is undertaken. We found that the air bottles were leaking due to worn-out stoppers. The batteries at minus 20 degrees Celsius are reduced to 10-20 per cent capability. Air bottles are filled by the compressors when the tanks/BMPs engines are running. Hence, with empty air bottles and weak batteries, the tanks and BMPs would not start. Thus the night static running was being undertaken to charge the batteries and fill up the air bottles! In a nutshell, for the want of air cylinder stoppers and charged batteries, the engines and other parts costing lakhs of rupees were being run down.


We resolved the issued by simply repairing/replacing the air cylinder stoppers to keep the air bottle full and removing the batteries which were kept in heated rooms on trickle charge, using generators.
Also, the use of pre-heaters for 1.5 to 2 hours before a attempting a start was enforced. We faced no problem thereafter. All our equipment remained battle-worthy.

So strict I was on this issue that in winters, before a start was attempted, the driver had to personally confirm to me that the SOP had been followed!

In January 2000, I was Brigade Commander in Batalik and came to know that the practice had restarted. I spoke to the Corps Commander – who dug out my SOP – to stop it. In 2005, as Corps Commander, I visited Ladakh and found that the practice had commenced again. Once again, I got it stopped. In 2007, when I became GOC in C Northern Command, to my horror I found that it had recommenced due to change of units and the SOP being buried under files. Once again, I got fresh SOPs written to enforce the same. In 2016, a Combat Command was inducted into Ladakh. I read a detailed article about it in newspapers. You must have guessed: the report mentioned that this practice was in vogue to “preserve” the equipment. During my visit to 14 Corps, I briefed the staff in detail. I am sceptical whether the ghost of “static runs” for tanks and BMPs has been finally buried or still haunting the mechanised forces!

Because of anti-idling laws every single tractor-trailer (truck) that does long distance runs in Canada and the northern US is equipped with an APU (auxiliary power unit) which can be either battery or diesel engine powered. The advantage of the diesel powered unit is that it can use diesel fuel from the main tank. The small auxiliary diesel engine pack weighs anywhere from 20kg to 35kg and provides the electric power to the heater in the engine block to pre-heat the engine block so that the oil flows before an engine start is attempted. It typically uses 0.5 to 1.0 liter of diesel per hour. It can be even set on a timer for say 1.5 to 2.0 hours before you want to start the engine. And temperature during winter can go down to as low as -35C to -40C, similar to Ladakh.

I don't see why every tank and frankly all heavy diesel powered Army vehicles deployed in Ladakh do not have a diesel APU retro-fitted. These APUs can optionally provide heat and air conditioning to the crew compartment and also charge the batteries, all the while the main engine is shut down and so does not suffer from wear and tear.

 

[Thundering13th]

Because of anti-idling laws every single tractor-trailer (truck) that does long distance runs in Canada and the northern US is equipped with an APU (auxiliary power unit) which can be either battery or diesel engine powered. The advantage of the diesel powered unit is that it can use diesel fuel from the main tank. The small auxiliary diesel engine pack weighs anywhere from 20kg to 35kg and provides the electric power to the heater in the engine block to pre-heat the engine block so that the oil flows before an engine start is attempted. It typically uses 0.5 to 1.0 liter of diesel per hour. It can be even set on a timer for say 1.5 to 2.0 hours before you want to start the engine. And temperature during winter can go down to as low as -35C to -40C, similar to Ladakh.

I don't see why every tank and frankly all heavy diesel powered Army vehicles deployed in Ladakh do not have a diesel APU retro-fitted. These APUs can optionally provide heat and air conditioning to the crew compartment and also charge the batteries, all the while the main engine is shut down and so does not suffer from wear and tear.

Are you sure light tank is the only solution @15000 feet? I dont think so

 

[garg_bharat]

Because of anti-idling laws every single tractor-trailer (truck) that does long distance runs in Canada and the northern US is equipped with an APU (auxiliary power unit) which can be either battery or diesel engine powered. The advantage of the diesel powered unit is that it can use diesel fuel from the main tank. The small auxiliary diesel engine pack weighs anywhere from 20kg to 35kg and provides the electric power to the heater in the engine block to pre-heat the engine block so that the oil flows before an engine start is attempted. It typically uses 0.5 to 1.0 liter of diesel per hour. It can be even set on a timer for say 1.5 to 2.0 hours before you want to start the engine. And temperature during winter can go down to as low as -35C to -40C, similar to Ladakh.

I don't see why every tank and frankly all heavy diesel powered Army vehicles deployed in Ladakh do not have a diesel APU retro-fitted. These APUs can optionally provide heat and air conditioning to the crew compartment and also charge the batteries, all the while the main engine is shut down and so does not suffer from wear and tear.

The reason here is that Army officers have low technical knowledge. And to change anything, even a needle, is a big bureaucratic process.

Our Army and Air Force need a significant change in organization.

The biggest change needed is technical knowledge of soldiers.

 

[BabaKhalbali]

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

in.reuters.com

 

[garg_bharat]

Modi government started reskilling mission for handymen and technicians. Now a reskilling mission is required for soldiers.

Military equipment is becoming more technically complex. And one cannot repair it on the field without technical knowledge.

 

[garg_bharat]

China has more than 400 su 30/ it's copies. They have 350+j10 . I am not counting there mig21 copies and bombers aircrafts. We have 262+ su30mki , 65+ mig29upg, mirage 2000 48/9. So in total we have close to 380 aircraft . Now Pakistan have 50+ f16and 110+ jf17. Total more than 160 jets. Now coming to your questions about how can Chinese put 100s of aircraft in Pakistan - well there is nothing stopping them from doing it. You think USA is going to attack China .? They have 2 aircraft carriers and 1 carrier nearby, but they aren't going to attack them. You attack somebody when you can take control of there territory, which USA just can't do . They can easily spare 400 aircraft for India

The presence of US Carriers in SCS region forces China to devote a good part of its fighters in that area. Fighting or no fighting.

The way situation is escalating, I think a shooting war between USA and China may happen before China-India.

 

[garg_bharat]

View attachment 53426

Why do you want Oli to resign? You need useful idiots like Raga.

 

[garg_bharat]

China Eyeing Ladakh To Gain Greater Accessibility To Pakistan, Sees Indian Army's Presence As Threat To CPEC

Galwan Valley skirmish is part of a broader expansionist campaign of China, revealed US News and World Report magazine saying Beijing ...

www.indiandefensenews.in

China is eyeing Ladakh to gain greater accessibility to Pakistan and sees the presence of the Indian Army as a threat to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

A new report by US News and World Report magazine says that Beijing, with its latest offensive, wants to grab greater control of the mountain regions along its southwest border in an attempt to gain greater accessibility to its partner Pakistan.

The new document obtained by US News and World Report, says that the killing of 20 Indian Army personnel by Chinese troops at Patrolling Point 14 of the Galwan region of Western Sector of Ladakh border is part of a broader campaign by China to insert military forces and assert territorial claims over countries in the South Asian region.

 

[Bhadra]

Chinese Mechanised Infantry Regiment comprises of four Mechanised Infantry battalions. one Meduim tank battalion and one PLZ-07B 122mm SP Howitzer battalion. Thus there are three such SPH battalions for close support of the Mechanised forcess.

PLZ-07B
122 mm self-propelled howitzer

​

The PLZ-07B artillery system is used by the China's marine corps​

​ ​ Country of origin​ China​ Entered service​ 2007 (?)​ Crew​ 5 men​ Dimensions and weight​ Weight​ ~ 25 t​ Length​ ~ 7 m​ Width​ ~ 3.3 m​ Height​ ~ 2.5 m​ Armament​ Main gun​ 122 mm​ Barrel length​ 38 calibers (?)​ Machine guns​ 1 x 12.7 mm​ Projectile weight​ 14 - 22 kg​ Maximum firing range​ 18 - 27 km​ Maximum rate of fire​ 6 - 8 rpm​ Elevation range​ - 3 to + 70 degrees​ Traverse range​ 360 degrees​ Ammunition load​ Main gun​ 40 rounds​ Machine guns​ ?​ Mobility​ Engine​ diesel​ Engine power​ ~ 600 hp​ Maximum road speed​ 60 ~ 65 km/h​ Range​ ~ 500 km​ Maneuverability​ Gradient​ 60%​ Side slope​ 30%​ Vertical step​ ~ 0.8 m​ Trench​ ~ 2.5 m​ Fording​ Amphibious​ The PLZ-07B is a Chinese self-propelled howitzer. It is a version of the PLZ-07, developed specially for China's marine corps. The original PLZ-07 was developed for the China's army. Both of these artillery systems have a similar turret and ordnance, however the PLZ-07B comes with a different hull, adapted for amphibious operations. The PLZ-07B is a successor of the PLZ-89, or Type 89 howitzer, used by the China's marine corps. The new artillery system has improved mobility and firepower over its predecessor. This artillery system is armed with a variant of the PL96 122 mm howitzer, which in turn is a copy of the Soviet D-30 towed howitzer. It is a proven design, used on a number of indigenous self-propelled howitzers. The PLZ-07B is fitted with a semi-automatic loader. This artillery system is compatible with standard Chinese and Russian 122 mm ammunition. It fires separate-loaded ammunition. NORINCO developed a whole family of 122 mm ammunition. Maximum range of fire is 18 km with standard High Explosive Fragmentation (HE-FRAG) projectile, 22 km with extended-range projectile and 27 km with rocket assisted projectile. Armor of the PLZ-07B provides protection against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. NBC protection and automatic suppression systems are fitted as standard. There is a roof-mounted 12.7 mm machine gun for self-defense. This artillery system is operated by a crew of 5. The PLZ-07B uses a modified hull of a ZBD-2000 amphibious infantry fighting vehicle. Though the PLZ-07B lacks hydraulically actuated bow and transom flaps of the ZBD-2000, intended for high-speed swimming. This artillery system is fully amphibious. On water the PLZ-07B is propelled by two waterjets. It an be launched at sea from amphibious assault ships and swim over short distances to shore. The original PLZ-07 used by the China's army is not amphibious and requires a special kit in order to ford water obstacles. This artillery system can be airlifted by medium military transport aircraft. In Essence there is nothing great with piece of shit....it has neither great power, nor range nor a heavy caliber to deliver sufficient punch.

 

[cereal killer]

China has more than 400 su 30/ it's copies. They have 350+j10 . I am not counting there mig21 copies and bombers aircrafts. We have 262+ su30mki , 65+ mig29upg, mirage 2000 48/9. So in total we have close to 380 aircraft . Now Pakistan have 50+ f16and 110+ jf17. Total more than 160 jets. Now coming to your questions about how can Chinese put 100s of aircraft in Pakistan - well there is nothing stopping them from doing it. You think USA is going to attack China .? They have 2 aircraft carriers and 1 carrier nearby, but they aren't going to attack them. You attack somebody when you can take control of there territory, which USA just can't do . They can easily spare 400 aircraft for India

I don't think you understand the simple fact China's neighbourhood is very hostile as well. They need to keep their majority of aircraft as deterrence there. Coming to Pak front, apart from having few jets in GB & PoK, I doubt they can do much. Even Skardu base can't support too many jets. Besides they don't risk a nuclear showdown with us. China only wants to bully India & their preferred doctrine is to push India back in a short border war. Pakistan is itself a joke even though for a country of its size they got credible military deterrance but they are already bankrupt & their navy is too thin, most of its forces are centred around Kashmir front.

 

[Bhadra]

Chinese 6 Highland Mechanised Infantry Division has Artillery Regiment comprising 36 PLZ-05 tracked 155mm/45-cal self-propelled howitzers and 36 122mm PHZ-11 MBRLs.

PLZ-05
155 mm self-propelled howitzer

The PLZ-05 self-propelled howitzer may enter service with the Chinese Army in the near future​

Country of origin​ China​ Entered service​ 2008​ Crew​ 4 - 5 men​ Dimensions and weight​ Weight​ ~ 35 t​ Length (gun forward)​ ~ 12 m​ Hull length​ ~ 6 m​ Width​ ~ 3.6 m​ Height​ ~ 3 m​ Armament​ Main gun​ 155 mm howitzer​ Barrel length​ 52 calibers​ Machine guns​ 1 x 12.7 mm​ Projectile weight​ 43 - 48 kg​ Maximum firing range​ up to 39 km​ Maximum rate of fire​ 8 - 10 rpm​ Elevation range​ - 3 + 65 degrees​ Traverse range​ 360 degrees​ Ammunition load​ Main gun​ 30 ~ 40 rounds​ Machine guns​ ~ 500 rounds​ Mobility​ Engine​ Deutz diesel (?)​ Engine power​ 800 hp​ Maximum road speed​ 55 km/h​ Range​ 550 km​ Maneuverability​ Gradient​ 60%​ Side slope​ 30%​ Vertical step​ ~ 0.8 m​ Trench​ ~ 2.8 m​ Fording​ ~ 1.2 m​ The PLZ-05, also referred as the Type 05, is a recent Chinese development. It evolved from the PLZ-45 self-propelled howitzer, that was exported to some countries. The first prototype was completed in 2003 and it was revealed in 2005. The PLZ-05 was adopted by Chinese army in 2008 to replace the older Type 83 152 mm self-propelled howitzer. It represented a shift from Soviet to NATO standards in terms of artillery and ammunition. As of 2015 nearly 300 PLZ-05 artillery systems are in service with the Chinese military. These are used by Chinese army, as well as coastal defense artillery units. The PLZ-05 self-propelled howitzer was never offered for export, even though China offers some similar artillery systems for possible customers. The PLZ-05 is armed with a 155 mm/L52 howitzer. It is a modified version of the AH2 towed howitzer. Its predecessor, the PLZ-45, was fitted with a shorter 155 mm/L45 howitzer. The PLZ-05 has a longer barrel, as well as longer range of fire and improved accuracy. Turret of the PLZ-05 was enlarged and resembles that of the Russian 2S19 Msta-S. It has a semi-automatic ammunition loading system. The Chinese Army was unsatisfied with indigenous semi-automatic loader of the PLZ-45. Some sources report, that the PLZ-05 uses an autoloader that has been copied from the Russian 2S19 Msta-S. The PLZ-05 is capable of firing a full range of Chinese 155 mm munitions. Range of a standard projectile is estimated to be around 30 km. Rocket assisted projectile has a range of 39 km. The PLZ-05 is also capable of firing Chinese precision guided projectiles. In the 1990s China obtained a Russian Krasnopol laser-guided projectile technology as well as production license. Later it successfully developed its own GP-155 family of precision guided munitions. These projectiles have a maximum range of 20 km (GP-155, also referred as GP-1) and 25 km (GP-155A). Also recently China publicly revealed new GP-155G precision guided anti-armor projectiles, similar to the Bonus. The original Bonus projectile carries two smart anti-tank submunitions to a range of 34 km. So Chinese equivalent of this projectile should have similar performance. Furthermore China has developed a satellite-guided WS-34 155 mm projectile with a claimed maximum range of 100 km and accuracy of 40 m. In terms of range it outperforms a US M982 Excalibur, which has a range of up to 60 km when fired from a 52-caliber ordnance. Though the Excalibur is accurate out to 5 m. Secondary armament consists of a 12.7 mm machine gun, mounted on top of the roof. Armor of the PLZ-05 protects against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. NBC protection and automatic fire suppression systems are fitted as standard. This artillery system uses a tracked chassis, which is very similar to that of the PLZ-45. It is most likely that it is powered by a Deutz turbocharged diesel engine. Engine of this self-propelled howitzer is developing 800 hp. This self-propelled howitzer is supported by an associated ammunition resupply vehicle, which carries ammunition under armor on the battlefield. The resupply vehicle is based on the same tracked armored chassis. It resembles a US M992 ammunition resupply vehicle of the M109 howitzer. It carries around 90 rounds of ammunition with associated charges and transfers them to the PLZ-05 via conveyor. Automated delivery is 8 rounds per minute. This support vehicle is fitted with a crane, which is used for ammunition handling operations and can be also used to replace the powerpack of the howitzer or for other repair, recovery and load handling operations. Variants​ PLZ-52 is an export version. It has similar appearance to the PLZ-45, but is fitted with a 155 mm/L52 howitzer. Though there were some modifications to the hull and turret. This artillery system has a maximum range of 53 km with rocket-assisted projectile. Maximum rate of fire is 8 rounds per minute. The PLZ-52 is capable of Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) firing. It can launch up to 4 rounds that would hit the same target simultaneously. It has been reported that the PLZ-52 is powered by a 1 000 hp engine. PLZ-04 is another export version. It has a slightly longer 54 caliber barrel, which gives improved range and accuracy. This self-propelled howitzer was reportedly exported to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.​

 

[Akshay Fenix]

So war it is. They are just moving back at places where odds are not in their favor.

We are ready, hope Modi Ji takes the right call. Only guy capable enough who can lead us to victory.

 

[Bhadra]

PHZ-11 MBRL

The PHZ-11 is fitted with two pods of 20 launchers for 122mm rockets arranged in four rows of five tubes each mounted on a power operated turntable. After the rockets are fired, a dedicated reloading vehicle with a crane unloads the empty modules and places new ones directly on the mount. It can fire different types of unguided solid propellant 122 mm rockets including mine laying, fuel-air explosive, HE High Explosive, steel ball HE, and steel ball HE incendiary with a range from 15 km to 30 km.

The PHZ-11 needs only a few minutes to be ready to fire and carry out a fire mission and rapidly to come out of action. Once the 122 mm rockets have been fired the vehicle can rapidly move to another position to avoid counter-battery fire. The PZH-11 was developed based on a modular design offering the possibility to fire rockets of different calibers as the mounting points are common to rocket modules of different calibers including 220 mm and 300 mm.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

China Eyeing Ladakh To Gain Greater Accessibility To Pakistan, Sees Indian Army's Presence As Threat To CPEC

Galwan Valley skirmish is part of a broader expansionist campaign of China, revealed US News and World Report magazine saying Beijing ...

www.indiandefensenews.in

China is eyeing Ladakh to gain greater accessibility to Pakistan and sees the presence of the Indian Army as a threat to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

A new report by US News and World Report magazine says that Beijing, with its latest offensive, wants to grab greater control of the mountain regions along its southwest border in an attempt to gain greater accessibility to its partner Pakistan.

The new document obtained by US News and World Report, says that the killing of 20 Indian Army personnel by Chinese troops at Patrolling Point 14 of the Galwan region of Western Sector of Ladakh border is part of a broader campaign by China to insert military forces and assert territorial claims over countries in the South Asian region.

I think Russians are betraying India . They must have known about this but never mentioned anything to India? There was even talk of Russia being involved in CPEC.

China Wants Russia To Calm India And Save CPEC
[URL
unfurl="true"]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2017/01/08/china-wants-russia-to-calm-india-and-save-cpec/amp/[/URL]

Russia’s Interest In Pakistani Power Projects Could Portend CPEC Investments - Obortunity

Source: EurasiaFuture Date: 17/1/2019 Author: Andrew Korybko Reports are circulating in the Pakistani press that the Russian company is interested in several power projects in the country, which could pave the way for Moscow to unofficially invest in CPEC without angering its Indian partners...

obortunity.org

Pakistan’s Role in Russia’s Greater Eurasian Partnership

Connectivity is one of the key trends of the 21st century, which Russia is fully embracing with its Greater Eurasian Partnership (GEP) in order to counteract the chaotic processes unleashed throughout the course of the ongoing systemic transition from unipolarity to multipolarity. This outlook...

www.google.com

think Russians are betraying India . They must have known about Chinese plans but never mentioned anything to India? There was even talk of Russia being involved in CPEC.

 

[Sehwag213]

I think Russians are betraying India . They must have known about this but never mentioned anything to India? There was even talk of Russia being involved in CPEC.

Redirect Notice

China Wants Russia To Calm India And Save CPEC

Russia’s Interest In Pakistani Power Projects Could Portend CPEC Investments - Obortunity

Source: EurasiaFuture Date: 17/1/2019 Author: Andrew Korybko Reports are circulating in the Pakistani press that the Russian company is interested in several power projects in the country, which could pave the way for Moscow to unofficially invest in CPEC without angering its Indian partners...

obortunity.org

Pakistan’s Role in Russia’s Greater Eurasian Partnership

Connectivity is one of the key trends of the 21st century, which Russia is fully embracing with its Greater Eurasian Partnership (GEP) in order to counteract the chaotic processes unleashed throughout the course of the ongoing systemic transition from unipolarity to multipolarity. This outlook...

www.google.com

We shouldn't blame Russia for our intelligence failure or failure to act before hand.

How can someone mobilise such a large army and we don't have a clue.
Secondly if we had done a galwan at Pangong tso and Depsang in may things wouldn't have come to this.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

We shouldn't blame Russia for our intelligence failure or failure to act before hand.

How can someone mobilise such a large army and we don't have a clue.
Secondly if we had done a galwan at Pangong tso and Depsang in may things wouldn't have come to this.

intelligence failure is definetly always the excuse for India’s security lapses . There were no mines even planted on the borders. But if we are a big customer for a sanctioned and hated nation they should at least value us more.

 

[Sehwag213]

intelligence failure is definetly always the excuse for India’s security lapses . There were no mines even planted on the borders. But if we a big customer for a sanctioned and hated nation they should at least value us more.

You want them to favour IND before CHN.
Russia's exports to CHN : 50 billion
Russia's exports to IND : 5 billion

Why would they?