India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[cereal killer]

But aren't the other two places tank-able areas? Why would India be remotely concerned there? Chinese would get gang banged in armored warfare against us.

That's what we all think. But we shouldn't take Chinese lightly here. They must be calculating their next steps & we should stay ahead of them. They made their move in Chumar sector but were caught in time. Depsang & SSN & Karakaoram.. That's what we gotta look after. Even our strategic experts have believed area is vulnerable. Also maybe our Deployment is too heavy there to stop any misadventures... No leakage of info from there so far.

 

[Bhurki]

If there is an aircraft outside our inventory that we have trained in is the F16.

You are confusing 'trained with' to 'trained in'. Aircraft aren't like cars, each is different, with different controls etc. So you need to learn to fly each of them individually.

Training with lets you learn the characterisitcs of the combat flight manuevers of the jet but you still don't know how to fly the jet.
The exposure of IAF to F-16 is limited to training with friendly forces like Indonesia etc. No one from IAF has actually gone to a F16 flight school/squadron to learn to fly it themselves.
And even if a handful of pilots do know how to operate the jet, that doesn't mean you can form an operationally viable team that can take that jet and fulfill mission objectives.
For that, you need to be maintaining an active squadron of the jet, which includes maintenance, management, doctrine analysis, mission planning team(exclusive to the type) etc.
The pilots training to fly Rafale have been doing so for over an year. Thats when they haven't even started to practice missions with their own squadron yet, which will take another year or half.

 

[Synergy]

This is true when USAF was procuring in large numbers for a certain amount of time and F-16 is in production for a long time, so those numbers are not surprizing considering its success and NATO adaption. You are ignoring too many variables in how production is optimized and plant and product lifecycle. F-18 plant was going to be closed if there were no export orders, that was the situation. Supply chain is lot more complex and just having years old machinary moved to India will not churn out things in numbers suddenly. Anyway, this is the end of my input on this topic.

sorry but you have completely missed my point.

you said Ms S told presently nobody has the capacity to supply us.
when she was DM, Fort Worth line was up and running with full capacity. later they shifted that to Greenville with a capacity of 48.

so nobody had the capacity at that time is nothing but a blatant lie.

leave any new plant, Fort Worth line was efficient enough to fulfill our requirements. they also might set up Greenville to speed the production up a bit and later shift there.

 

[Synergy]

Raw numbers do not matter, there aren't going to be Dresden type WW2 attacks. If we go with that China has 3000 fighters.

China believes in LFE or follow LFE doctrine.

 

[Bhadra]

There will be internal threats that are looking to destabilize India from the inside especially the Commies and Jihadis. War with China is perfect time for them. India will be most vulnerable during these times as our resources will be primarily focused on China and Pakistan. I don’t believe CISF alone can hold the line down against internal enemies inside India. India needs to create more All India Paramilitary Forces and CAPFs. Assam Rifles are the only true Paramilitary force in India and but they are restricted to the Northeast for the most part. Rashtriya Rifles are structured similar to a Paramilitary Force but is still part of the Indian Army and are located in J&K UT.

For God sake consider that India's internal security forces and budget is going to surpass the Defense budget soon. How long shall we keep Internal India under the barrel of the gun?

The clear focus must be on the elimination of the causes of the million mutinies. The main cause is the inability to deliver clean administration. 90 percent of Indian masses want safety and security of their lives by law and order (subject presided over by IPS), just and corruption-free administration of their areas (the subject presided over by the IAS) and their rights on use of their natural forest land and resources ( subject presided over by IFS, the Forest Service).

The largest cause of population dissatisfaction and then rebellion against the state is mismanagement and corruption in these three fundamental spheres of life and existence. The Welfare schemes do not reach the people, law, and order is absent and people's rights over forest have been taken away by IFS, What does the bottom of ladder Indian population do... IAS has become the biggest Land Mafia, IPS have become the biggest extortionists, and IFS has become owners of Forest resources selling Forest Land to Mine Mafia. The poor man has nowhere to go. The Three All India Services have become the biggest and most powerful revolt creators.. and the basic cause of lack of faith towards state administration...

264 Battalions of CRPF is almost touching Indian Army Infantry strength by now. Then you have CISF, BSF, ITBP, SSB and many more. State Reserve Police Force battalions is beyond a hundred.. Yet you want some more. Talk of reduction in their strength. We are not a colonial country .. nor a Police State..

And please do not call RR as PMF . They are regular Army...

 

[omaebakabaka]

In case there is mass movement of chiness Precision strike weapons near the Tibet border.. IAF will redeploy accordingly.. Any surprise cruise missile attack might come via chinese bombers.. these launches will be detected before the missiles cross the border.. and considering that IAF readiness during such a contingency will be very high.. wherein pilots take off within 2 minutes to 5 minutes of an alarm.. a good number of fighters can be saved even in forward bases.. ( discounting hardened and underground shelters)
Also, with materials available today runways can be repaired within hours.. the 60 sophisticated american cruise missiles that hit syria were a waste of money and did not even cripple the third rate syrian airforce.. Assad planes were back to flying within 24 hours of the attack..

Well, NATO attack was a show.....even a novice analyst knew that. There is no Syrian AF that is fighting another AF...bad examples......anyway what I am saying is threat analysis is modeled on bounded variables and not unbounded variables. There are various models and inputs taken into account when modeling a particular threat. There are good and bad models and its mostly science combined with experience (art) to generate a good productive model. Evidence for you is we are not matching China on any raw numbers in anything (except population may be) and we wont be able to for forseeable future and we should not aim for that anyway....our strategy will be asymmetric and modeled based on our strengths combined with threat analysis. We have not had 42 squads in a very long long time....with or without BJP it is not happening in near future (next 5 years).....runways, fuel depots and so many other things that can be taken out on both sides. Anyway its all good....

 

[Arihant]

You are confusing 'trained with' to 'trained in'. Aircraft aren't like cars, each is different, with different controls etc. So you need to learn to fly each of them individually.

Training with lets you learn the characterisitcs of the combat flight manuevers of the jet but you still don't know how to fly the jet.
The exposure of IAF to F-16 is limited to training with friendly forces like Indonesia etc. No one from IAF has actually gone to a F16 flight school/squadron to learn to fly it themselves.
And even if a handful of pilots do know how to operate the jet, that doesn't mean you can form an operationally viable team that can take that jet and fulfill mission objectives.
For that, you need to be maintaining an active squadron of the jet, which includes maintenance, management, doctrine analysis, mission planning team(exclusive to the type) etc.
The pilots training to fly Rafale have been doing so for over an year. Thats when they haven't even started to practice missions with their own squadron yet, which will take another year or half.

Indian air force have agreement with Singapore airforce since 2007. They get training on Su-30 and Indian air force pilots get training on F-16. Pilots from both airforces trained in kalaikunda airbase and few f-16 are always stationed in airbase.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Gand fati Panjiri bati

Indian media rumormongering risks sparking conflicts, damaging ties - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

 

[omaebakabaka]

sorry but you have completely missed my point.

you said Ms S told presently nobody has the capacity to supply us.
when she was DM, Fort Worth line was up and running with full capacity. later they shifted that to Greenville with a capacity of 48.

so nobody had the capacity at that time is nothing but a blatant lie.

leave any new plant, Fort Worth line was efficient enough to fulfill our requirements. they also might set up Greenville to speed the production up a bit and later shift there.

What was the full capacity of fort worth? With plant experience, there is a wind down phase, where part of workers are retrained on next models.....what you are saying is high marketing pitch and reality would be totally somewhere in the middle in best case scenario. There are so many parts in aircraft that are hand made and throughput is not that high....these are not world war planes built from crude materials with simple tech. If what you are saying is true then why aren't they buying?

 

[Synergy]

What was the full capacity of fort worth? With plant experience, there is a wind down phase, where part of workers are retrained on next models.....what you are saying is high marketing pitch and reality would be totally somewhere in the middle in best case scenario. There are so many parts in aircraft that are hand made and throughput is not that high....these are not world war planes built from crude materials with simple tech. If what you are saying is true then why aren't they buying?

assuming, here they means we.

I'm not sure about exact capacity of Fort Worth but that's not lesser than 48.
as they were getting fewer export orders, they shifted that line to a smaller unit.
if we've ordered that then they could have continued for 2 more years and we may have more than 100 F16s sniffing the bat smell.

but why we are not buying, or should we buy that or not, is a completely different subject and nothing to do with the production capacity at that time.

if she said that, I think Ms S was completely misinformed. or she had thrown a lie to avoid criticism.

P.S. : very unlikely she said that. then there would be huge uproar. seems like a fake news to me.

 

[omaebakabaka]

assuming, here they means we.

I'm not sure about exact capacity of Fort Worth but that's not lesser than 48.
as they were getting fewer export orders, they shifted that line to a smaller unit.
if we've ordered that then they could have continued for 2 more years and we may have more than 100 F16s sniffing the bat smell.

but why we are not buying, or should we buy that or not, is a completely different subject and nothing to do with the production capacity at that time.

I think Ms S was completely misinformed. or she had thrown a lie to avoid criticism.

I think you can explain it like that but its oversimplification....plants really do not operate in that simplistic manner in market economy. Let me explain why....there are 100's of suppliers if not 1000's of all types such as parts, service providers, raw materials e.t.c. With each product cycle they all move in sync which means capacity is wound down and workforce is regeared to the new product not just plane manufactures but all 100's/1000's of suppliers. India did not get bought into it most likely as it is not convincing for any one with experience. These are not products that sit in super market where they can sell on sale. Economics dictates that capacity is rarely that large and is highly based on forecast and cut off dates are set for customers with legal implications. I am giving you first hand experience....during the last stage of wound up few things happen....first tier parts suppliers keep producing parts based on demand and forecasting or they outsource to 2nd tier certified vendors....India simply did not believe it or they just don't want to invest in 3.5 or 4th gen plane that is also in our foe's inventory....in defence product life cycles, new plants are rarely established for each new model.

 

[Cheran]

People, what is this? Can anything be made of this?

 

[ataru09]

Please explain to a lay person how the canal would have been advantageous for PL navy. For me, a destroyer or a fisher boat navigating in a canal is an easier target than a destroyer or fisher boat in high sea ! Further more, the exit of the canal will be situated right in front of Andaman island ?

Yeah I have mentioned it before here. It will be put out of commission the first day of hostilities. The only use of the canal is to save time and money. It's strategic value for the Chinese military would be zero.

 

[TheSaffron]

People, what is this? Can anything be made of this?

A personnel from one of the six Vikas regiments. Not counting 4 Vikas.

 

[ezsasa]

People, what is this? Can anything be made of this?

Bhai saab, don't start a new frenzy plz.....

 

[Lancer]

People, what is this? Can anything be made of this?

Pic of an SFF guy.

 

[mist_consecutive]

People, what is this? Can anything be made of this?

Do I see an SFF guy with a tin helmet? I have never seen such blasphemy in my entire life!

 

[Suryavanshi]

Do I see an SFF guy with a tin helmet? I have never seen such blasphemy in my entire life!

Tin helmet are the norm.
Its getting pathetic at this point FINSAS project was junked and this is the result. Not just the Inventory this is the situation of SF sometime.

tho this could be old photo.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Indian air force have agreement with Singapore airforce since 2007. They get training on Su-30 and Indian air force pilots get training on F-16. Pilots from both airforces trained in kalaikunda airbase and few f-16 are always stationed in airbase.

I did not know that....I know they do exercises together

 

[omaebakabaka]

Do I see an SFF guy with a tin helmet? I have never seen such blasphemy in my entire life!

Looks more like a hood.