India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[garg_bharat]

GobarTimes should shut the frack up - Experts at DFI opine:-

So global times thinks all Indian scholars are anti-China! Quite a statement.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

i was once banned from a paki forum the only one i ever was on more than a decade ago for asking about this. the answer is usa absolutely will not allow it.

LOL !!!! I got banned in the padosi forum. Just for registering...

You know why?? Ten years ago I got drunk one night and registered in the name of PKMB.

 

[Flying Dagger]

On the IR side, ASRAAM will be integrated with the SU-30, Jaguar and LCA. Mica-IR is already on the Mirage 2000 after the upgrade and also on the Rafale. From this it looks likely that the IAF will have 2 IR missiles and the SU-30 test firing was to also enable the huge SU-30 fleet to be able to use Mica-IR stocks. After all when you have 2 IR missiles it makes sense to have as much commonality in terms of platforms as possible. In a war scenario you do not want a situation that you have Mica-IR stocks and are running short on ASRAAMs, but you cannot use the Mica on the SU-30.

While not definite, I don't think the IAF is going for the R-74. They may have tested it, but ASRAAM and Mica-IR will be it's 2 mainstay IR AAMs.

The R-37M may be bought in limited quantities for it's specialized role as an ultra long range AAM for the SU-30, complementing the Meteor on the Rafale.

I doubt that the R-77-1 will be bought in quantities. Just enough to tide over and transition till the Astra becomes available in quantities.

R-37M is essentially an Awacs killer with 600+ kg weight and its replacement Novator missile with around 750 kg weight and 400+ km range around. It's not a meteor equivalent for Sukhoi.

The ramjet version of R-77 isn't available so it is the in development SFDR: the meteor equivalent for Sukhoi.

R-74 is already in. IAF love this missile for CCM and have no issue with it plus the cost advantage.

R-27 in diff version IR (40km+) semi active and active ( 130 km range ).

Astra is R-77/R-27 replacement. 21-23 is the transition phase after which Astra will replace them as per plans.

Astra will also have it's IR version to replace R-27 T . The purpose is to have one missile with diff type of seekers like MICA and R-27.

Regarding IR version of MICA which is actually a BVR IR missile with almost 20% more range than ASRAAM and 50% more range than R-74. It is expensive and we already have a small stock of them so russian IR missiles going out of stock or Asraam in future will have less chances then mica IR.

Also it makes sense to buy russian missiles and keep stock without fear of sanction ban etc. during war.

 

[Cheran]

More soft screwing

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Bigger question what will happen to SAAB AWACS?
Will Sweden allow Chinese to work with those awacs? Pakistan have spend quite some money on them and if Pakistan can get those awacs talking with Chinese awacs then it will be a capability jump.

 

[tarunraju]

Apparently 11 wants to kick Li Keqiang, and replace him with Chen Yixin, a yes-man.

11 is copying Putin's template of becoming dear leader - to keep one competent yes-man close (as Putin kept Medvedev, and swapped offices as he saw fit).

CCP is screwed. The vital meritocracy that kept it moving forward after Deng, is getting lost. Xi's impatience and selfishness will cost China its only real chance at becoming a superpower (by biding its strength until the data/AI industrial revolution takes over).

The ideal time for China to pull the stunts it did since 2019 would have been 2030. But that would have meant Xi misses out on all the action. With the post-COVID realignments taking place around the world, China will never have the kind of global trust it had in 2018, and it can't buy its way back to those days by exporting cheap trinkets. There are serious efforts underway to move supply chains out of China, and for countries to become as self-reliant as possible. Xi taught the world to be careful who it imports from.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Completely contradicting reports, earlier somebody had posted a article that said that talks were useless.

First articles clearing way for India Russia China meet without looking like GoI rolled over.

 

[Knowitall]

More soft screwing

Why the hell was rhe order given to them in the first place.

Vande bharat is our own design right.

 

[mokoman]

Why the hell was rhe order given to them in the first place.

Vande bharat is our own design right.

i was thinking same thing.

https://www.livemint.com/news/india...or-44-vande-bharat-trains-11594510672552.html

CRRC Corporation Ltd with a Gurugram-based company according to its website, is one of the six contenders for the tender for procuring propulsion systems or electric traction kits for 44 trains to function as the Vande Bharat Express or Train 18.

Officials said going by the cost of manufacturing the first Train 18 which was launched last year at an expense of Rs 100 crore out of which Rs 35 crore was for the propulsion system alone, the present tender for 44 such kits would be worth over Rs 1,500 crore.

Its a joint venture , i am guessing the local employees will get fucked.

We could pull a "china" on them , steal their IP and cut them off ,

 

[Flying Dagger]

Why the hell was rhe order given to them in the first place.

Vande bharat is our own design right.

Design yes but imported parts were assembled to manufacture it.

The tender was for propulsion system. We even import led bulbs what were you expecting anyway ?

 

[tarunraju]

Why the hell was rhe order given to them in the first place.

Vande bharat is our own design right.

Vande Bharat's original two trainsets (Train 18 and Train 20) were built at ICF Chennai, but didn't have the blessings (read: upstream bribery) of Rail Bhavan Delhi. So they punished the entire ICF design team, terminated dozens of engineers behind the project (who moved on to foreign jobs), and ran a fresh tender for trainsets, including Chinese participation. This was before Ladakh happened.

But yeah, that's the absolute state of Indian foreign maal fetish.

Indian Railways is 1000x more foreign addicted than the military, right from the LHB coach design, to the ABB, Alstrom, and GM-EMD locos beating BHEL- and TATA-made locos, and more. They deliberately set parameters to exclude Indian companies, because foreign companies can afford to bribe Railway Board members, and fund their children's American dreams.

Compared to fighter jets, railway locomotives are extremely easy to design, and Indian companies do have the expertise to design and mass produce thousands of them. BHEL used to supply hundreds of electric locos, and was on its way to design the 9-class loco, but some babu decided to take a foreign-funded Swiss vacation. We then got overpriced ABB locos (WAG-9 and WAP-7), which are fast becoming IR's workhorses. DLW came up with many innovative locos in the 2000s, but they were cast aside for American GE and French Alstrom locos.

If journalists start digging, they'll find hundreds of Bofors-level scams in the Railways.

Vocal for local my ass.

 

[garg_bharat]

i was thinking same thing.

https://www.livemint.com/news/india...or-44-vande-bharat-trains-11594510672552.html

CRRC Corporation Ltd with a Gurugram-based company according to its website, is one of the six contenders for the tender for procuring propulsion systems or electric traction kits for 44 trains to function as the Vande Bharat Express or Train 18.

Officials said going by the cost of manufacturing the first Train 18 which was launched last year at an expense of Rs 100 crore out of which Rs 35 crore was for the propulsion system alone, the present tender for 44 such kits would be worth over Rs 1,500 crore.

Its a joint venture , i am guessing the local employees will get fucked.

We could pull a "china" on them , steal their IP and cut them off ,

I dont think we need Chinese technology for train engines. Chinese are undercutting everything on price. It is like my cheap washing machine - company refuses to provide warranty service.

Our tender system has deep flaws. We often buy items at an upfront low price but then pay massively for spares or just lack of aftersales service.

The government needs to stop participation of Chinese companies in our infra tenders. One cannot buy from an enemy country.

 

[ganesh177]

Oppose 'unilateral' steps: China to Pak on Kashmir

So china is openly calling for unrest in kashmir which is integral part of india.
And what are we doing ?
scared to take position on hongkon, taiwan, tibet, xinjiang ?

 

[garg_bharat]

So china is openly calling for unrest in kashmir which is integral part of india.
And what are we doing ?
scared to take position on hongkon, taiwan, tibet, xinjiang ?

Well what China is saying and what China is doing is absolutely clear.
We still have to grow balls to reply China in the same language.

 

[Knowitall]

Vande Bharat's original two trainsets (Train 18 and Train 20) were built at ICF Chennai, but didn't have the blessings (read: upstream bribery) of Rail Bhavan Delhi. So they punished the entire ICF design team, terminated dozens of engineers behind the project (who moved on to foreign jobs), and ran a fresh tender for trainsets, including Chinese participation. This was before Ladakh happened.

But yeah, that's the absolute state of Indian foreign maal fetish.

Indian Railways is 1000x more foreign addicted than the military, right from the LHB coach design, to the ABB, Alstrom, and GM-EMD locos beating BHEL- and TATA-made locos, and more. They deliberately set parameters to exclude Indian companies, because foreign companies can afford to bribe Railway Board members, and fund their children's American dreams.

Compared to fighter jets, railway locomotives are extremely easy to design, and Indian companies do have the expertise to design and mass produce thousands of them. BHEL used to supply hundreds of electric locos, and was on its way to design the 9-class loco, but some babu decided to take a foreign-funded Swiss vacation. We then got overpriced ABB locos (WAG-9 and WAP-7), which are fast becoming IR's workhorses. DLW came up with many innovative locos in the 2000s, but they were cast aside for American GE and French Alstrom locos.

If journalists start digging, they'll find hundreds of Bofors-level scams in the Railways.

Vocal for local my ass.

Reading this is just sad train 18 and when train 20 came out were both highly promising projects who could have changed the face of railways in this country.

But at this point I'm used to such disappointments.

 

[fire starter]

Reading this is just sad train 18 and when train 20 came out were both highly promising projects who could have changed the face of railways in this country.

But at this point I'm used to such disappointments.

Railway is shithole.

 

[ezsasa]

Reading this is just sad train 18 and when train 20 came out were both highly promising projects who could have changed the face of railways in this country.

But at this point I'm used to such disappointments.

Fresh modified tender will come out in a week.

 

[Bhadra]

I did not question their valour. As another poster pointed out this entire Martial race concept was brought by British. It is visible even today.
States with most no. Of infantry regiments:
Punjab: 3 (Sikh Regt., Sikh Light Infantry, Punjab Regt.)
J&K: 3 (J&K Light Infantry, J&K Rifles, Dogra Regt.)

NE people are no doubt warlike people. But I guess they don't have that superiority complex like we see with Gorkha Nepalis. They like to boast too much.

Gorkhas do have significant history and traditions in support of their imagined or real qualities in claiming superiority in soldiering..

back in recent history during Muslim Rule and British Rule, all significant princely states had Gorkha soldiers in their Armies - be it Jaipur, Jammu or Bikaner, Sikkim or Bhutan.

The British employed them with success all over the world.

Gorkha Regiments of the British Indian Army were one of the largest and highest battle honoured and gallantry award winners.

Gorkha Regiments of the Indian Army post-independence continue to be highest gallantry awardees as also battle honoured, They produce not only excellent soldiers but also the largest numbers and excellent Generals. It is tough and a matter of honour for an officer to get commissioned into a battalion of Gorkha Rifles ( all of those are Rifles).

Gorka also constitutes a large chunk of some of our elite SF units, Assam Rifles and SFF and other regiments including JAKRIF.
Those are the big pluses they do have. I think they have earned their attitudes.. It is not Johney's Head in the Air.

 

[freethinker777]

Quite intense.. Looks like the PLA guy sh*t himself..

Haha if he takes out knife at his neck will be seen dangling from his body and his death will never ever be recognised

 

[Indrajit]

I dont think we need Chinese technology for train engines. Chinese are undercutting everything on price. It is like my cheap washing machine - company refuses to provide warranty service.

Our tender system has deep flaws. We often buy items at an upfront low price but then pay massively for spares or just lack of aftersales service.

The government needs to stop participation of Chinese companies in our infra tenders. One cannot buy from an enemy country.

We need to understand the Chinese strategy. Use funds provided by the Chinese state to undercut all domestic producers, keep at it till domestic producers fold up. The market then has no choice but to buy what is being sold by the Chinese, at a price they decide.

This is national suicide. I have been opposed to the Chinese having a free run in India from years, they are economically strangulating us and we have been incredibly stupid.
For that reason alone, I’m glad that the Chinese have done what they did at the borders. I feverishly hope that at long last, this stupidity of allowing economic rape of our country will stop.

Good read to understand what’s been happening..>>>>>

Uday Kotak deconstructs the story behind China's slow, systematic capture of India's markets

Kotak shed light on the raw deal Indian businesses got from China: in sector after sector, China was able to dramatically under-price its goods, with the result that many domestic manufacturers went out of business.

m.economictimes.com