India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Assassin 2.0]

Kutta and malik meeting.

 

[LDev]

There is no big question here Mica isn't integrated with Su nor it will be. Since russian and Indian missile already outrange it. And it's not just france but russia too which needs to say yes. More important why would Europe give away it's missile to Russia through Indian routes by mating MICA NG with a Russian radar.

For IR : Su already have RD -74 and ASRAAM will be standard IR missile of IAF not mica.

Regarding Astra : It will be on all Su we operate . Infact most Astra out of 248 ordered will go to Su.

On the IR side, ASRAAM will be integrated with the SU-30, Jaguar and LCA. Mica-IR is already on the Mirage 2000 after the upgrade and also on the Rafale. From this it looks likely that the IAF will have 2 IR missiles and the SU-30 test firing was to also enable the huge SU-30 fleet to be able to use Mica-IR stocks. After all when you have 2 IR missiles it makes sense to have as much commonality in terms of platforms as possible. In a war scenario you do not want a situation that you have Mica-IR stocks and are running short on ASRAAMs, but you cannot use the Mica on the SU-30.

While not definite, I don't think the IAF is going for the R-74. They may have tested it, but ASRAAM and Mica-IR will be it's 2 mainstay IR AAMs.

The R-37M may be bought in limited quantities for it's specialized role as an ultra long range AAM for the SU-30, complementing the Meteor on the Rafale.

I doubt that the R-77-1 will be bought in quantities. Just enough to tide over and transition till the Astra becomes available in quantities.

 

[mokoman]

Kutta and malik meeting.

China firmly supports Pakistan in safeguarding its territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence, independently choosing a development path based on its national conditions

Pakistan also "reaffirmed its firm support to China on affairs concerning China’s core interests and issues of major concern, such as those related to Taiwan, Xinjiang, Tibet and Hong Kong",



What a beautiful Master Slave relationship.

 

[Bhadra]

1. Hill tribes, be it Nepalese or NE Indian, have a cultural disdain for plainspeople. They see themselves as superior, martial race and plainspeople as weak. Speaking from experience, a cultural subtext in hill cultures often are that Hill people are sons of the soil, uncomplicated, trusting people while those from plains are evil, conniving bastards swindling and exploiting the simplistic hill folks. That is the mindset they gave grown up with. When confronted with the reality that the mighty and martial Nepalese nation is much less powerful than a plainspeople nation, there's hate.

2. Does Mexico, Panama etc love America? They do hate and blame America for their troubles. But Mexicans and other South Americans do love coming to America and earning, the benefits it bring all the while disliking America. USA is the biggest power broker in their region and exerts control and influence. When you can't compete, you hate.

On the surface, you sound good but ground realities are a little different and things are not so simple and styreotyped as you painted.

Hills of J&k north of Pirpanjal and then Northe of Himalays are so diffrent from Jammu. All are not same and do not have same cultural mindsets. A fully non vegeterian Kashmiri Brahmin is so different from a Pandey of Varanasi still have the cultural affinity. Dogras are more like Punjabies and the hilly races of Himachal such as Kullu Manali, or Netwar or Lahul Spiti are so different from Dogras. They are equally divided amongst castes and subcastes and in tracing their ancestry.
A Garhwali or Kumaoni can trace their ancestry to Rajputana, UP, MP, Gujrat or Haryana. Kumaoni Pant and Joshis can trace their ancestry to Maharasthra.

Hill tribes of the North East are so different from each other and also from Hilly people of other parts of India.

Nepalese are as diverse as India. They are divided into Thakuries, Bhauns, Khas, Magar, Gurung, Lepchas, Kiranties, Newaries, Bhotias, Tamangs, Madhesi etc. People of Western areas like Dang are so different from Tamangs of Darjeeling. People of the interior like Gurungs are so different from lowland Tharus and Bhakhshas. it is as diversified a nation as Indians including twenty odd languages. Hindus of Nepal can be as orthodox as any part of India. The population is more cosmopolitan in outlook than Indians because of their exposures.

Anti Indianism amongst them is a modern politico nationalist phenomenon. Their belief of plains folks being thugs. crooks and unreliable is equally true for their own plain areas population. People of the Interior and middle areas of Nepal carry bad opinions about their own Madesi populations.

Similarly, Negis of interior Himachal dislike Dogras and vice versa. Dogras of Jammu do not have a good opinion about Kashmiri Pundits etc.... Garhwalis distrust plainsmen....

So such cultural divides are part geographical, part historical and part demographical.

Please do not label those as being anti-India, A Sirmouri is as fiercely Indian or a Garhwali is as staunch Indian as any Delhi or Mumbaywala. Do not get carried away by changes enforced on humans by topography, air and water - and the five elements of existence which do change from place to place the world over like the distrust between people of Wales to those of London or the dislike between people of South and North, East and West in USA.

The story of the North East is vastly different.

 

[Bhadra]

Agree with you. But NE people don't sound like Martial race. They do have their own customs & not much connect to other Indian people.

You have this impression because you never fought with them.... ask Indian Army veterans and they will tell you what mettle they have in combat... they attack you by giving advance notice and they kill you by sending a warning letter... and then honour your bravery by returning your ID card to your wife most honourably even if she in Chennai.. unlike a coward Naxalite or even worse a coward Jihadi Punjabi or a Kashmiri.

Ask any man of 21 SF and he will tell you .....

 

[Bhadra]

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

New Delhi: There are signs of improvement in the situation along the line of actual control in the Ladakh area, but it's still too early. A lot has to happen before it's clear that it's not a false dawn.

After the Working Mechanism meeting, there are some signs that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is willing to go back from the positions it occupies on the North Bank, back to where they were before the intrusion began in early May. This is the contentious Pangong sector. This has been seen as a welcome sign as it appeared that the Chinese were well entrenched in the Finger 5 area. Their agreement to go back, government sources said, is conditional. It will have to be seen if the PLA troops do go back, and whether the Indian Army agrees to the conditions.

The situation in Galwan and Hot Springs is positive; the PLA has moved back to what India believes is on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control. But there are still differences between the two countries over the situation in Gonggras and Konkhala.

China has repeatedly asked India to meet it halfway. India has clearly said Chinese soldiers have to go back to places they occupied in end of April this year. China has also stated that the border situation should not affect the overall relationship, but with the death of 20 soldiers in the fighting on June 16, it is not something that India can easily contemplate. The trouble along the LAC began in early May this year.

Today's joint secretary level meeting was led on the Indian side by the ministry of external affairs and included representatives from the ministries of defence and home and also, from the Military Operations directorate of the army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police. The Chinese side had equivalent officials. The meeting was done virtually

Interestingly, China has repeatedly complained about the aggressive Indian media and how it has access to information on the situation in Ladakh.

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

After the Working Mechanism meeting, there are some signs that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is willing to go back from the positions it occupies on the North Bank.

www.timesnownews.com

 

[Bhadra]

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

ab iss par Lage raho...

 

[DownWithCCP]

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

New Delhi: There are signs of improvement in the situation along the line of actual control in the Ladakh area, but it's still too early. A lot has to happen before it's clear that it's not a false dawn.

After the Working Mechanism meeting, there are some signs that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is willing to go back from the positions it occupies on the North Bank, back to where they were before the intrusion began in early May. This is the contentious Pangong sector. This has been seen as a welcome sign as it appeared that the Chinese were well entrenched in the Finger 5 area. Their agreement to go back, government sources said, is conditional. It will have to be seen if the PLA troops do go back, and whether the Indian Army agrees to the conditions.

The situation in Galwan and Hot Springs is positive; the PLA has moved back to what India believes is on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control. But there are still differences between the two countries over the situation in Gonggras and Konkhala.

China has repeatedly asked India to meet it halfway. India has clearly said Chinese soldiers have to go back to places they occupied in end of April this year. China has also stated that the border situation should not affect the overall relationship, but with the death of 20 soldiers in the fighting on June 16, it is not something that India can easily contemplate. The trouble along the LAC began in early May this year.

Today's joint secretary level meeting was led on the Indian side by the ministry of external affairs and included representatives from the ministries of defence and home and also, from the Military Operations directorate of the army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police. The Chinese side had equivalent officials. The meeting was done virtually

Interestingly, China has repeatedly complained about the aggressive Indian media and how it has access to information on the situation in Ladakh.

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

After the Working Mechanism meeting, there are some signs that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is willing to go back from the positions it occupies on the North Bank.

www.timesnownews.com

Completely contradicting reports, earlier somebody had posted a article that said that talks were useless.

 

[Sanglamorre]

On the surface, you sound good but ground realities are a little different and things are not so simple and styreotyped as you painted.

Hills of J&k north of Pirpanjal and then Northe of Himalays are so diffrent from Jammu. All are not same and do not have same cultural mindsets. A fully non vegeterian Kashmiri Brahmin is so diffrent from a Pandey of Varanasi still heve the cultural affinty. Dogras are more like Punjabies and the hilly races of Himachal such as Kullu Manli, or Netwar or Lahul Spiti are so different from Dogras. They are equally devided amongst castes and sucastes and in tracing their ancestry.
A Garhwali or Kumaoni can trace their ancestry to Rajputana, UP, MP, Gujrat or Haryana. Kumaoni Pant and Joshis can trace their ancestory to Maharasthra.

Hill tribes of North East are so different to each other and also from Hilly people of other parts of India.

Nepalese are as diverse as India. They are divided into Thakuries, Bhauns, Khas, Magar, Gurung, Lepchas, Kiranties, Newaries, Bhotias, Tamangs, Madhesi etc. People of Western areas like Dang are so different from Tamangs of Darjeeling. People of the interior like Gurungs are so different from lowland Tharus and Bhakhshas. it is as diversified a nation as Indians including twenty odd languages. Hindus of Nepal can be as orthodox as any part of India. The population is more cosmopolitan in outlook than Indians because of their exposures.

Anti Indianism amongst them is a modern politico nationalist phenomenon. Their belief of plains folks being thugs. crooks and unreliable is equally true for their own plain areas population. People of Interior and middle areas of Nepal carry bad opinion about their own Madesi populations.

Similarly, Negis of interior Himachal dislike Dogras and vice versa. Dogras of Jammu do not have a good opinion about Kashmiri Pundits etc.... Garhwalis distrust plainsmen....

So such cultural divides are part geographical, part historical and part demographical.

Please do not label those as being anti-India, A Sirmouri is as fiercely Indian or a Garhwali is as staunch Indian as any Delhi or Mumbaywala. Do not get carried away by changes enforced on humans by topography, air and water - and the five elements of existence which do change from place to place the worldover like the distrust between people of Wales to those of London or the dislike between people of South and North, East and West in USA.

The story of North East is vastly different.

Nowhere did I say being one of the hill tribes and believing in Hill tribe supremacy is anti-India. One can be a fierce Indian and yet believe plains people are Inferior.

I have used the word tribalism. That word denotes a very strong feeling of belonging to ones tribes and implies antagonism towards "others", including fellow hill tribes. But the hierarchy of hate has plainspeople higher on the list than fellow hill tribes.

Even the Hindu pandits of Kashmir had a sense of superiority wrt Hindus from Indo-Gangetic plains. Hindus of Nepal might have cultural affinity with Hindus from India and their own plains but that doesn't stop them from disdaining both.

Does this mean every hill people hate plainsmen with a blazing passion? No. Often its just a slight undercurrent, presenting and masking itself as slight discontent.

People of Sikkim are no way anti India, most of them are patriots. But there's displeasure in the people for Hindi/bollywood taking over their TVs, or wistfulness when the tour guide talks of the ruins of capital of Sikkimese hill kingdom. You might not agree, but these have been my personal experience and takeaways.

Of course, not all people are exactly like this. There's exceptions and all.

 

[cereal killer]

You have this impression because you never fought with them.... ask Indian Army veterans and they will tell you what mettle they have in combat... they attack you by giving advance notice and they kill you by sending a warning letter... and then honour your bravery by returning your ID card to your wife most honourably even if she in Chennai.. unlike a coward Naxalite or even worse a coward Jihadi Punjabi or a Kashmiri.

Ask any man of 21 SF and he will tell you .....

I did not question their valour. As another poster pointed out this entire Martial race concept was brought by British. It is visible even today.
States with most no. Of infantry regiments:
Punjab: 3 (Sikh Regt., Sikh Light Infantry, Punjab Regt.)
J&K: 3 (J&K Light Infantry, J&K Rifles, Dogra Regt.)

NE people are no doubt warlike people. But I guess they don't have that superiority complex like we see with Gorkha Nepalis. They like to boast too much.

 

[mokoman]

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

New Delhi: There are signs of improvement in the situation along the line of actual control in the Ladakh area, but it's still too early. A lot has to happen before it's clear that it's not a false dawn.

After the Working Mechanism meeting, there are some signs that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is willing to go back from the positions it occupies on the North Bank, back to where they were before the intrusion began in early May. This is the contentious Pangong sector. This has been seen as a welcome sign as it appeared that the Chinese were well entrenched in the Finger 5 area. Their agreement to go back, government sources said, is conditional. It will have to be seen if the PLA troops do go back, and whether the Indian Army agrees to the conditions.

The situation in Galwan and Hot Springs is positive; the PLA has moved back to what India believes is on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control. But there are still differences between the two countries over the situation in Gonggras and Konkhala.

China has repeatedly asked India to meet it halfway. India has clearly said Chinese soldiers have to go back to places they occupied in end of April this year. China has also stated that the border situation should not affect the overall relationship, but with the death of 20 soldiers in the fighting on June 16, it is not something that India can easily contemplate. The trouble along the LAC began in early May this year.

Today's joint secretary level meeting was led on the Indian side by the ministry of external affairs and included representatives from the ministries of defence and home and also, from the Military Operations directorate of the army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police. The Chinese side had equivalent officials. The meeting was done virtually

Interestingly, China has repeatedly complained about the aggressive Indian media and how it has access to information on the situation in Ladakh.

India-China standoff: China sets conditions for withdrawal in Pangong sector

After the Working Mechanism meeting, there are some signs that the Chinese People's Liberation Army is willing to go back from the positions it occupies on the North Bank.

www.timesnownews.com

Their agreement to go back, government sources said, is conditional. It will have to be seen if the PLA troops do go back, and whether the Indian Army agrees to the conditions.

China has repeatedly asked India to meet it halfway.

Anyone have any idea what the conditions are ?

 

[Indianemperor]

Dont know if this is real. if yes, how do they plan to achieve it.

 

[cereal killer]

On the surface, you sound good but ground realities are a little different and things are not so simple and styreotyped as you painted.

Hills of J&k north of Pirpanjal and then Northe of Himalays are so diffrent from Jammu. All are not same and do not have same cultural mindsets. A fully non vegeterian Kashmiri Brahmin is so different from a Pandey of Varanasi still have the cultural affinity. Dogras are more like Punjabies and the hilly races of Himachal such as Kullu Manali, or Netwar or Lahul Spiti are so different from Dogras. They are equally divided amongst castes and subcastes and in tracing their ancestry.
A Garhwali or Kumaoni can trace their ancestry to Rajputana, UP, MP, Gujrat or Haryana. Kumaoni Pant and Joshis can trace their ancestry to Maharasthra.

Hill tribes of the North East are so different from each other and also from Hilly people of other parts of India.

Nepalese are as diverse as India. They are divided into Thakuries, Bhauns, Khas, Magar, Gurung, Lepchas, Kiranties, Newaries, Bhotias, Tamangs, Madhesi etc. People of Western areas like Dang are so different from Tamangs of Darjeeling. People of the interior like Gurungs are so different from lowland Tharus and Bhakhshas. it is as diversified a nation as Indians including twenty odd languages. Hindus of Nepal can be as orthodox as any part of India. The population is more cosmopolitan in outlook than Indians because of their exposures.

Anti Indianism amongst them is a modern politico nationalist phenomenon. Their belief of plains folks being thugs. crooks and unreliable is equally true for their own plain areas population. People of the Interior and middle areas of Nepal carry bad opinions about their own Madesi populations.

Similarly, Negis of interior Himachal dislike Dogras and vice versa. Dogras of Jammu do not have a good opinion about Kashmiri Pundits etc.... Garhwalis distrust plainsmen....

So such cultural divides are part geographical, part historical and part demographical.

Please do not label those as being anti-India, A Sirmouri is as fiercely Indian or a Garhwali is as staunch Indian as any Delhi or Mumbaywala. Do not get carried away by changes enforced on humans by topography, air and water - and the five elements of existence which do change from place to place the world over like the distrust between people of Wales to those of London or the dislike between people of South and North, East and West in USA.

The story of the North East is vastly different.

Small correction.. Kashmiri Pandits are majority non vegetarians.

 

[Cactus09]

Does not matter. Their conditions will change status quo and hence not acceptable to us in any way.

 

[Cheran]

GobarTimes should shut the frack up - Experts at DFI opine:-

 

[Knowitall]

Their agreement to go back, government sources said, is conditional. It will have to be seen if the PLA troops do go back, and whether the Indian Army agrees to the conditions.

China has repeatedly asked India to meet it halfway.

Anyone have any idea what the conditions are ?

China wants Indian troops to move back too and in other areas wants India to accept the new status quo.

Something like we will move back from despang but you should forget about the finger areas.

This grade A chutiyapa being done by then is basically that they want us to move back in our own territory and in return they claim and I quote "claim" they will move back too from the grey zones which they occupied.

The problem here is us moving back anymore means more territory for them to snatch and another point to remember is that we don't control the grey areas so if we move back it shall be on our own territory and since the border is not defined by moving back we are giving an invitation to them to come and take more land from us.

India cannot guard the whole border neither can they.

But the difference is they are always the aggressors and since we never seem to do anything the threat of land grab by us is non-existent

Due to this china never faces the issue of sustaining large deployments to cover it's border while we like fools have decided to march the army there during winters to protect our borders.

Not only is this costing us more those additional troops sent there will return one day and get back to their locations.

What then you might ask this once again will leave our land exposed to be taken by the Chinese since we lack an official border.

There is and I feel most forum members understand this now no diplomatic solution for this.

The harsh reality is that china is talking from a position of strength none of our economic strikes seem to have the desired effect on them they can sustain their troops due to their terrain and infrastructure so they are in no hurry to leave.

Infact GOI is also in no hurry even they seem to be super chill talking to the Chinese like clowns every week hoping for the impossible.

 

[cereal killer]

China wants Indian troops to move back too and in other areas wants India to accept the new status quo.

Something like we will move back from despang but you should forget about the finger areas.

This grade A chutiyapa being done by then is basically that they want us to move back in our own territory and in return they claim and I quote "claim" they will move back too from the grey zones which they occupied.

The problem here is us moving back anymore means more territory for them to snatch and another point to remember is that we don't control the grey areas so if we move back it shall be on our own territory and since the border is not defined bymoving back is an invitation by us for them to come and take more.

India cannot guard the whole border neither can they.

But the difference is they are always the aggressors and since we never seem to do anything the threat of land grab by us is non-existense.

Due to this china never faces the issue of sustaining large deployments to cover it's border while we like fools have decided to march the army there during winters to protect our borders.

Not only is this costing us more those additional troops sent there will return one day and get back to their locations.

What then you might ask this once again will leave our land exposed to be taken by the Chinese since we lack an official border.

There is and I feel most forum members understand this now no diplomatic solution for this.

The harsh reality is that china is talking from a position of strength none of our economic strikes seem to have the desired effect on them they can sustain there troops due to their terrain and infrastructure so they are in no hurry to leave.

Infact GOI is also in no hurry even they seem to be super chill talking to the Chinese like clowns every week hoping for the impossible.

Man I'd not give fingers over Depsang. That'd be like suicide. Any more loss of territory in Sub sector North (SSN) has direct ramifications to national security.

 

[Knowitall]

Man I'd not give fingers over Depsang. That'd be like suicide. Any more loss of territory in Sub sector North (SSN) has direct ramifications to national security.

We should not be giving an inch that's what we should be doing. sovereignty and land of a country should always be above everything.

If one cannot defend their own country all this development economic growth doesn't matter.

 

[Cactus09]

China must restore status quo ante in eastern Ladakh to resolve border standoff: Sources | India News - Times of India

India News: The Chinese military is not serious about resolution of the border standoff in eastern Ladakh and it is faced with an "unanticipated" consequence for

m.timesofindia.com

Interesting observations.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

i was once banned from a paki forum the only one i ever was on more than a decade ago for asking about this. the answer is usa absolutely will not allow it.