India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[mokoman]

There's a common saying; "possession is 9/10th's of the law" regarding legal/property disputes.

He's saying the same applies in matters of territorial encroachment when diplomats sit down to settle things.

i am guessing this means we should have taken action immediately , and

short of china leaving on their own free will , nothing much more to discuss.

 

[Synergy]

A couple of reasons. A 36 aircraft order was given to bypass the original order which GoI considered prohibitively expensive. To keep the French placated, this number was ordered with a supposed offer by the French government to help in a few areas and an offer of veto on demand in the UNSC. Dassault got 18 more aircraft than what they were supposed to get to manufacture in France and the Dassault boss made it clear that for him the 36 order was better than manufacturing 3 times more in India. That was supposed to be the end of that, a compromise of sorts. To give them an additional 36 would be an complete waste for us and an windfall for the French. We would have zero justification for the original deal if we go though and would be seen as a complete blunder with us getting no benefit out of such a large order. Ya, a loser’s contract it would be.

though having similar thoughts, but I'd not agree completely, mostly on Rafale numbers part.

point to note : afaik, mmrca contract also had a hefty penalty clause that we had to pay if we cancelled that contract at that stage. by going g2g, we also adverted that alongwith other points.

we have paid probably more than 2 billion just for India specific requirements and infra/support. If we've paid that much for only 36 then that'd be a waste of money. atleast 36 more would be required to justify that.

next, if we r trying to arrest falling numbers then only used F16 can be the better choice. if we continue with present mrfa contract, then jets wouldn't start to fly before 2028/2030 (best case scenario) (is this timeframe proper?). I don't think that'd be a wise choice when we've tedbf in pipeline. orca should be atleast at par with Rafale.

 

[Flying Dagger]

This is an article written by Hemant Rout in the New Indian Express. His sourcing is a bit hit and miss, generally good in the past......



The MICA comes in a radar homing as well as an IR variant. It was not specifed as to which of the 2 variants were tested or whether both were tested. I was reading on another site (cant get hold of it now) that France finally agreed to let India integrate the Mica on the SU-30.

The big un-answered question is if the ARH version of the Mica has been integrated with the SU-30, what does that say about the Astra? Is it performance issues or lack of production? Probably the latter I feel, given the Ladakh situation the IAF probably wants all missiles in large numbers in inventory.

IAF test fires air-to-air missiles ahead of Rafale integration

There is no big question here Mica isn't integrated with Su nor it will be. Since russian and Indian missile already outrange it. And it's not just france but russia too which needs to say yes. More important why would Europe give away it's missile to Russia through Indian routes by mating MICA NG with a Russian radar.

For IR : Su already have RD -74 and ASRAAM will be standard IR missile of IAF not mica.

Regarding Astra : It will be on all Su we operate . Infact most Astra out of 248 ordered will go to Su.

 

[ezsasa]

i am guessing this means we should have taken action immediately , and

short of china leaving on their own free will , nothing much more to discuss.

From a different perspective, it also means we have to spend 9 times the effort to even the odds.

So the solution is to identify the areas that we need to work on and develop capabilities, to spend 9 times the effort.

 

[Lancer]

i am guessing this means we should have taken action immediately , and

short of china leaving on their own free will , nothing much more to discuss.

Can always return the favor elsewhere. But something will have to be done, that's for sure.

 

[Cheran]

 

[DownWithCCP]

i am guessing this means we should have taken action immediately , and

short of china leaving on their own free will , nothing much more to discuss.

I pointed it out in a recent post of mine, if we had any plans it should have been to do a quid pro quo at the very beginning when they were not well poised, so that we could have something to negotiate upon and could gain some leverage over the chinese, by agreeing to go for talks , we have made sure that the chinese were allowed to consolidate their position and when the time for negotiations came by we had nothing to give and had everything to demand, anything we give would be further loss to us.I don't know if we can still do a quid pro quo without very high chance escalation(we probably can in some other sector) or if the Chinks fire the first shot then things could take a different path.

 

[Flying Dagger]

As you happy , that's history.

Wish Indian not so sensitive, focus on country development.

India and China need to work together , and pursue better life for its people.

Problem isn't China but your Xi Ping Pong president and his party. His open support to terrorism , interfering in internal matters of india , constructing roads in Indian territory without permission of India then most important his denial for Free Tibet are big roadblocks.

How many times had he sought blessing and forgiveness from Dalai Lama for his sins ? None. He has occupied the nation of Dalai Lama and raping and burning people alive there.

Also we must not forget the China virus he created and destroyed the whole world economy with it taking thousands of lives. He is not a president but a pimp if we take note of the women trafficking he has been promoting from poor parts of Korea Vietnam pakistan etc.

Such a leader who holds no value for international laws or rule and have thrown the world Into a apocalypse like situation must not be tolerated. Hopefully the world will see it and free china from that XI ping pong .

 

[Flying Dagger]

History book only teach big things , small things it don't teach.

I don't know China win or lose at 1967 with India.

If you said India win , OK , just as you said.

Not care too much about 1967 , care about now , and also focus on future my friend.

It doesn't matter all we know is we can fcuk china and destroy the mainland completely to make sure the closed eyes of Ping pong opened up to a terrible ending of his evil dreams.

Even if it means to go nuke on china it is justified specially considering they are just a mess to Japan Vietnam korea phillipines Taiwan India Tibet Hong Kong Xinxiang etc.

 

[Synergy]

Dalai Lama is a big slave owner, and the people outside China want to dependent Tibet is former slave owners , because before 1949, they are so happy to be slave owners , they can do everything they want .

you can visit Sichuan musum , see what's Tibet looks like before 1949.

And you can compare with Nepal and Tibet , which one is develop better.

@mods please immediately ban him. I don't think it's a thread to preach Chinese propaganda and malign His Holiness. I strongly object.

@ezsasa @LETHALFORCE @hit&run

 

[cereal killer]

I pointed it out in a recent post of mine, if we had any plans it should have been to do a quid pro quo at the very beginning when they were not well poised, so that we could have something to negotiate upon and could gain some leverage over the chinese, by agreeing to go for talks , we have made sure that the chinese were allowed to consolidate their position and when the time for negotiations came by we had nothing to give and had everything to demand, anything we give would be further loss to us.I don't know if we can still do a quid pro quo without very high chance escalation(we probably can in some other sector) or if the Chinks fire the first shot then things could take a different path.

Yep we were too slow to react. We downplayed everything since this started. We should've crossed Karakoram as soon as they entered in Galwan & Pangong.
I think both military & political leadership did not knew about China's intentions. Now they've got very few options. Either force them out (war) or back down & leave.

 

[cereal killer]

@mods please immediately ban him. I don't think it's a thread to preach Chinese propaganda and malign His Holiness. I strongly object.

@ezsasa @LETHALFORCE @hit&run

Entire CCP & Hans get jittery whenever they hear about Dalai lama. He is our ace but alas we have never used him to humiliate China. Man our foreign policy

 

[Flying Dagger]

Dalai Lama is a big slave owner, and the people outside China want to dependent Tibet is former slave owners , because before 1949, they are so happy to be slave owners , they can do everything they want .

you can visit Sichuan musum , see what's Tibet looks like before 1949.

And you can compare with Nepal and Tibet , which one is develop better.

If rape of Tibet women and burning of children and men there is progress then Nepal is much better without it.

1. Tibet isn't your nation you have occupied and destroyed it how do you feel abt Japanese Army inside china.

The thing you just said completely justifies what Japan did to you as it seems your kind is a sick bat shit eating race.

Every one knows Ping pong president is basically a pimp who even white out his own wife to seek favor and reach here within party. Such a low life he is and by creating China virus to destroy the world he has confirmed that he is a madman in position of power which must be taken back from him.

 

[mokoman]

I pointed it out in a recent post of mine, if we had any plans it should have been to do a quid pro quo at the very beginning when they were not well poised, so that we could have something to negotiate upon and could gain some leverage over the chinese, by agreeing to go for talks , we have made sure that the chinese were allowed to consolidate their position and when the time for negotiations came by we had nothing to give and had everything to demand, anything we give would be further loss to us.I don't know if we can still do a quid pro quo without very high chance escalation(we probably can in some other sector) or if the Chinks fire the first shot then things could take a different path.

we should thank the Chinese for showing us their true colors.

All this talk of peacefull rise of China is nonsense. A strong India is not in their best interest and they will do their best to strangle us.

They already dominate the TV and phone market and if this shit at the border had'nt taken place , in a decade they would have extended it to the 5g telcom gear sector and in 5 decades to processors , laptops, PC parts , app and pretty much everything else.

Any step back to old days and they will dominate us economically . I rather they never leave , let them build a 5 storey building there and sell huawei phones out of bottom floor.Maybe even station all their 40 J20 at hotan airbase.

 

[Arbit]

Finally a worthy target for Brahmos.

China is not aggressive , China do not have great internal pressure now , but it have big issue with USA, so China do not want conflict with India.

But India have great internal pressure , Covid-19 , jobless, Religious conflict ,

So India need to create conflicts with other countries to ease internal conflicts.
Pakistan is a good target,
Being provocative with China is like playing with fire. China is too powerful. If play too big, its easily lose control

You can barely stitch a sentence in english and claim to know about everything wrong in my country!

You were a civilization once. Now yours is just a wild bat eating tribe and going by the history of average rule of chinese empires in your barren flooded land. it is about time Xi rolled over and called it quits.

Your silly propaganda will work only with those who are either dumb or have borrowed from you. We are neither, so do us a favour and send someone with brains to post here.

 

[ezsasa]

@mods please immediately ban him. I don't think it's a thread to preach Chinese propaganda and malign His Holiness. I strongly object.

@ezsasa @LETHALFORCE @hit&run

Already done.

 

[Indrajit]

Can’t understand the last line, what is the good Chief saying here?

I think he’s saying that the diplomats will achieve zilch.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Hmm.. That's natural but I don't understand why they hate India. Were they supposed to get benefit from new constitutional change that Madhesis were protesting against?

1. Hill tribes, be it Nepalese or NE Indian, have a cultural disdain for plainspeople. They see themselves as superior, martial race and plainspeople as weak. Speaking from experience, a cultural subtext in hill cultures often are that Hill people are sons of the soil, uncomplicated, trusting people while those from plains are evil, conniving bastards swindling and exploiting the simplistic hill folks. That is the mindset they gave grown up with. When confronted with the reality that the mighty and martial Nepalese nation is much less powerful than a plainspeople nation, there's hate.

2. Does Mexico, Panama etc love America? They do hate and blame America for their troubles. But Mexicans and other South Americans do love coming to America and earning, the benefits it bring all the while disliking America. USA is the biggest power broker in their region and exerts control and influence. When you can't compete, you hate.

 

[ezsasa]

When you can't compete, you hate.

Funnily enough, you also seem to be explaining India-China, China-USA, UK-India, USA-China etc etc.

 

[cereal killer]

1. Hill tribes, be it Nepalese or NE Indian, have a cultural disdain for plainspeople. They see themselves as superior, martial race and plainspeople as weak. Speaking from experience, a cultural subtext in hill cultures often are that Hill people are sons of the soil, uncomplicated, trusting people while those from plains are evil, conniving bastards swindling and exploiting the simplistic hill folks. That is the mindset they gave grown up with. When confronted with the reality that the mighty and martial Nepalese nation is much less powerful than a plainspeople nation, there's hate.

2. Does Mexico, Panama etc love America? They do hate and blame America for their troubles. But Mexicans and other South Americans do love coming to America and earning, the benefits it bring all the while disliking America. USA is the biggest power broker in their region and exerts control and influence. When you can't compete, you hate.

Agree with you. But NE people don't sound like Martial race. They do have their own customs & not much connect to other Indian people. Arunachal is an exception though.. Hindi is like primary language there. Nagas are even more far flung. I guess only British have bought them under India. They do have a regiment named after them though.
Martial race concept is popular with Pashtuns, Punjabis both in Ind & Pak. Dogras, Kumaoni guys & Gorkhas.