India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[cereal killer]

They might not be 5th gen as potrayed, but can it also be afforded to completely discount them as a combat aircraft? They are still dual engined airframes that can drop bombs and launch missiles, and china is on verge to start building a boat load of them.

Exactly I am surprised people calling J20 garbage. Yes it may not fit the criteria of a stealth fighter but it is still a formidable force to encounter. Our own AMCA squadron is years away & we are laughing over Chinese J20

 

[Cheran]

India’s electronic warfare units are archaic, but camouflage, concealment can blunt PLA

India has been left two decades behind China with respect to military capability in general and information warfare in particular. Ladakh is a wake-up call.

theprint.in

Article by Panag

 

[A chauhan]

JUST IN : The US suspends / terminates three Bilateral Agreements with China with immediate effect

Hongkong **

 

[Sehwag213]

India’s electronic warfare units are archaic, but camouflage, concealment can blunt PLA

India has been left two decades behind China with respect to military capability in general and information warfare in particular. Ladakh is a wake-up call.

theprint.in

Article by Panag

I simply don't understand what purpose does writing garbage article like this serve?

I mean if they are so ahead of us , they wouldn't have tried to capture land like a thief under the garb of military exercise

 

[Indrajit]

Let me state that again NO... IAF isn't third world airforce... Yes IAF buying old Jets to fill the sqd of existing fleet as stop gap measure. When you say Taiwan buying F16s, they already have them so they don't have to dev a everything req for a jet from scratch which we have to do which eats into your plate + huge amount of time which we don't fancy right now. So Yes only logical option is Rafale. and please don't say inducting F18/16/15 isn't going to take the big chunk of our funds... if you think you're obviously mistaken and i don't know what's the new capability they can bring that Rafale don't ???

I made it very clear, we can afford almost nothing, certainly not in the numbers we need. Unless we get generous financing, this is all hot air and the French don't do financing. It's not about greater capabilities, its about where the affordable offer is.

My point on Taiwan buying F 16 was a counter to the notion that it's an outdated platform. Nobody is buying new lots of " outdated" stuff simply because they already have more of it.

We cant afford Rafales. It's why the original order was reduced to 36 in the first place.

Multiple reasons to buy American. Apart from the possibility of financing, it's also a way to offset the trade surplus we enjoy. The argument made by some that we will buy other things is a not in tune with the reality, we can afford very little with our budget and this is a very good way to reduce pressure on our exports. Also, as has been pointed out the Americans have a much larger variety of ammunition available as compared to the French and are pretty much the only ones who can give us in bulk(apart from the Russians but they are not relevant here). They are also the only ones who can supply at the speed we need.

 

[DownWithCCP]

 

[johnq]

Exactly I am surprised people calling J20 garbage. Yes it may not fit the criteria of a stealth fighter but it is still a formidable force to encounter. Our own AMCA squadron is years away & we are laughing over Chinese J20

The whole idea of stealth has moved on from where it was 30 years ago. Listen to what Pierre Sprey and Winslow Wheeler have to say about stealth and BVR engagement; it's a very thin reed, especially since we now know that stealth aircraft can be tracked by longer wavelength radar. The problem is that most people are amateurish on what real air combat is like. It's nothing like a video game where you see a target on radar, fire a missile and destroy the target. Most of the time you end up in a dogfight. The problem with J-20 is the design trade-offs they made in trying to make it stealthy. The larger cross section due to the internal weapons bay and the massive amount of internal fuel carriage makes it sluggish in spite of large engines. And that is a nightmare scenario for any pilot in a dogfight. And it's not even as low rcs in x-band as the F-35 due to its canards and poor side and rear shaping, forget about longer wavelength radar. I think J-20 could've been somewhat dangerous as a low rcs bomb truck if it came out 30 years ago, but not so much anymore, now that it can be tracked.

 

[HKedifier]

The whole idea of stealth has moved on from where it was 30 years ago. Listen to what Pierre Sprey and Winslow Wheeler have to say about stealth and BVR engagement; it's a very thin reed, especially since we now know that stealth aircraft can be tracked by longer wavelength radar. The problem is that most people are amateurish on what real air combat is like. It's nothing like a video game where you see a target on radar, fire a missile and destroy the target. Most of the time you end up in a dogfight. The problem with J-20 is the design trade-offs they made in trying to make it stealthy. The larger cross section due to the internal weapons bay and the massive amount of internal fuel carriage makes it sluggish in spite of large engines. And that is a nightmare scenario for any pilot in a dogfight. And it's not even as low rcs in x-band as the F-35 due to its canards and poor side and rear shaping, forget about longer wavelength radar. I think J-20 could've been somewhat dangerous as a low rcs bomb truck if it came out 30 years ago, but not so much anymore, now that it can be tracked.

J20 & F35 & F22 can be tracked because it installed Luneburg lens , because if it haven't installed Luneburg lens , crash will happend. No radar can track it.

 

[scatterStorm]

The whole idea of stealth has moved on from where it was 30 years ago. Listen to what Pierre Sprey and Winslow Wheeler have to say about stealth and BVR engagement; it's a very thin reed, especially since we now know that stealth aircraft can be tracked by longer wavelength radar. The problem is that most people are amateurish on what real air combat is like. It's nothing like a video game where you see a target on radar, fire a missile and destroy the target. Most of the time you end up in a dogfight. The problem with J-20 is the design trade-offs they made in trying to make it stealthy. The larger cross section due to the internal weapons bay and the massive amount of internal fuel carriage makes it sluggish in spite of large engines. And that is a nightmare scenario for any pilot in a dogfight. And it's not even as low rcs in x-band as the F-35 due to its canards and poor side and rear shaping, forget about longer wavelength radar. I think J-20 could've been somewhat dangerous as a low rcs bomb truck if it came out 30 years ago, but not so much anymore, now that it can be tracked.

Already been discussed to what you've said. Point is J-20 are rolling out, are we rolling out AMCA? Not yet. Case closed.

 

[prasadr14]

J20 & F35 & F22 can be tracked because it installed Luneburg lens , because if it haven't installed Luneburg lens , crash will happend. No radar can track it.

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Load of BS,
an underhanded way of putting J20 in same category as F22 & F35.

 

[Sarjen]

I made it very clear, we can afford almost nothing, certainly not in the numbers we need. Unless we get generous financing, this is all hot air and the French don't do financing. It's not about greater capabilities, its about where the affordable offer is.

My point on Taiwan buying F 16 was a counter to the notion that it's an outdated platform. Nobody is buying new lots of " outdated" stuff simply because they already have more of it.

We cant afford Rafales. It's why the original order was reduced to 36 in the first place.

Multiple reasons to buy American. Apart from the possibility of financing, it's also a way to offset the trade surplus we enjoy. The argument made by some that we will buy other things is a not in tune with the reality, we can afford very little with our budget and this is a very good way to reduce pressure on our exports. Also, as has been pointed out the Americans have a much larger variety of ammunition available as compared to the French and are pretty much the only ones who can give us in bulk(apart from the Russians but they are not relevant here). They are also the only ones who can supply at the speed we need.

So what makes you think India can afford 100s of F16s/18 ?? Do you think American Jets are coming this or next year?? If we go ahead with MRCA it would take 4-5 years or more to get the first Jet. given the waste of years and price escalation and the rest its god damn worth in pouring money into Rafale than going ahead with MRCA ( A loser's contract)

And ofcourse Jets cost money.. what's important your national Security or Money ?? if costs are way to high then increase the number of Rafale with whatever budget available and fill in other sqds like MKIs or LCA. at least raise it to 72+ which would give jitters to our adversaries.

First of all.. no there'll be no Financing, Second Sorry no one will buy a Jet to make it up for Trade surplus.
come on Bro... We can integrate other weapons into Rafale just like how IAF does with existing Jets, and the same can be done by the french in terms of delivering Missiles and other equipment.. Didn't we get the Rafale ahead of schedule

 

[HKedifier]

Load of BS,
an underhanded way of putting J20 in same category as F22 & F35.

The fight will finished before eye vision, who can find opponent and lock the opponent , who will win.

 

[scatterStorm]

J20 & F35 & F22 can be tracked because it installed Luneburg lens , because if it haven't installed Luneburg lens , crash will happend. No radar can track it.

View attachment 56808View attachment 56809View attachment 56810

Not completely true, I would add that there are two perspective to this:

1. Operational Best Practices: Yes it does help increase the RCS figures. But that's not the reason that it can't be detected. F22 & J20 have very low and low frontal RCS by design, respectively. So when they approach a commercial airport or even a military one, and since the approach is frontal mostly, they are tough to be detected, which can cause military accidents.

2. Strategic Practices: Since its a confidential jet by nature of its strategic importance, its secrecy is to maintained, and thus you wouldn't allow the adversary to have correct RCS figures, which is the first objective of any stealth fighter jet to have i.e. Preserve stealth for longer duration as possible.

 

[HKedifier]

Not completely true, I would add that there are two perspective to this:

1. Operational Best Practices: Yes it does help increase the RCS figures. But that's not the reason that it can't be detected. F22 & J20 have very low and low frontal RCS by design, respectively. So when they approach a commercial airport or even a military one, and since the approach is frontal mostly, they are tough to be detected, which can cause military accidents.

2. Strategic Practices: Since its a confidential jet by nature of its strategic importance, its secrecy is to maintained, and thus you wouldn't allow the adversary to have correct RCS figures, which is the first objective of any stealth fighter jet to have i.e. Preserve stealth for longer duration as possible.

Luneburg lens is the reason jets can be detected.

Without Luneburg lens , stealth jets can't be detected.

 

[johnq]

Already been discussed to what you've said. Point is J-20 are rolling out, are we rolling out AMCA? Not yet. Case closed.

There would be no point to rolling out AMCA if it had the same limitations as the J-20, especially now that the J-20 can be tracked by radar in spite of being so bulky. What they are planning with AMCA is much more advanced: Complete radar stealth, regardless of the radar wavelength. No country in the world is fielding fighters with that yet.
They can roll out as many J-20 as they like, but the fact remains that it's not stealthy, and a very sluggish fighter (due to its design tradeoffs) without a cannon. In the real world of air combat, it is a dead duck: A 1950s Mig-21 armed with R-73 can shoot it down.

 

[A chauhan]

Luneburg lens is the reason jets can be detected.

Without Luneburg lens , stealth jets can't be detected.

All stealth jets can be detected @ a certain range. Luneburg lens is to hide a jet's original radar cross section.

 

[HKedifier]

All stealth jets can be detected @ a certain range. Luneburg lens is to hide a jet's original radar cross section.

So stealth jet is meaningless?

 

[scatterStorm]

Luneburg lens is the reason jets can be detected.

Without Luneburg lens , stealth jets can't be detected.

I disagree. I recommend that you read some post on J20 thread. Luneburg lenses are just for varying the RCS figures, and are used as operational best practices in international airspace, and also preserving the secrecy of the stealth characteristics, one being the RCS.

Food for thought: For Chinese CCP, international airspace doesn't mean anything.

 

[scatterStorm]

So stealth jet is meaningless?

I disagree there too. Its not meaningless, its has its benefits, if you have put more thought to why I said Frontal RCS is important, you would understand to why I said that. Once again, read some post of F22 thread, J20 thread etc.

 

[scatterStorm]

There would be no point to rolling out AMCA if it had the same limitations as the J-20, especially now that the J-20 can be tracked by radar in spite of being so bulky. What they are planning with AMCA is much more advanced: Complete radar stealth, regardless of the radar wavelength. No country in the world is fielding fighters with that yet.
They can roll out as many J-20 as they like, but the fact remains that it's not stealthy, and a very sluggish fighter (due to its design tradeoffs) without a cannon. In the real world of air combat, it is a dead duck: A 1950s Mig-21 armed with R-73 can shoot it down.

Been discussed, please read the J20 section. J-20 is not designed to be a VLO stealth fighter. It is designed to be LO stealth fighter + bomber (new role) and was inspired to have airframe from some early Russian Mig design which as abandoned later, but then F35 came into design phase and its chief designer said that it is made from F35 tech.

Meaning the tech they are using is espionage tech. So that doesn't mean it isn't stealth.