India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[ataru09]

The Soviet Union had the same idea at the time, and everybody saw the result

Soviet Union was no America. At it's death it was a husk of it's former self.

 

[garg_bharat]

I agree that the present situation on the border is a bit worrying.
The French and the Russians supply us weapons without the irritating conditions.
Some French weapons are as good as the American weapons.
The US should supply weapons on the same terms as the French and Russians.
Indians have modified Russian weapons without objections from Russia.
The Su30mki has an Indian mission computer. Will the US agree to such kind of modifications by us on their supplied fighters.
The US military wants us to share the communication protocols used by our Air Force planes to talk to each other meaning they can listen to our secret war time coded communications. WHY?.
India poses no threat to the US but the reverse can be true. The despatch of the USS Enterprise to the Indian Ocean during the 1971 war cannot be forgotten easily.
The US needs to earn our trust first.

I am not anti US. But I believe many Indians want to be cautious while enhancing relations with the US.

An emergency procurement of fighters from USA is needed. Some adjustments will have to be made. You cannot worry about terms and conditions at this time when you are short of resources.

Russia is falling behind China in the technology race. Russia will not be able to provide India much of value in one decade.

France (Europe in general) do not have capacity for a large country like India.

 

[HKedifier]

Soviet Union was no America. At it's death it was a husk of it's former self.

China was also isolated before 1912(Qing dynasty), collapsed.

Isolate will lead to collapse.

Isolate will only lead to keep away from the world.

 

[HKedifier]

An emergency procurement of fighters from USA is needed. Some adjustments will have to be made. You cannot worry about terms and conditions at this time when you are short of resources.

Russia is falling behind China in the technology race. Russia will not be able to provide India much of value in one decade.

France (Europe in general) do not have capacity for a large country like India.

India need to depend on itself.

In core interest , no country will support India, these country can only sell normal (not the most advanced) weapon to India.

 

[cereal killer]

I agree about China but Pakistan wouldn't take risk crossing the IB at Sialkot ..that would be formal declaration of war ..Good luck to them saving Karachi or Lahore ..Frustrated India would raise hell on pakistan and Pakistan would burn for months ..the situation might also escalate to nuclear (finally we will get to decimate Pakistan for good) ..
However Pakistan can be a little cheeky and grab Siachin..that way it would avoid any major retaliation from India as all roads to Siachin would be occupied by China(If China attack and capture more strategic heights in Laddhak)
I guess this winter would be dramatic

Siachen would be graveyard for Paki soldiers as we still control the heights. However they can be backed by China as China would surely cross Karakoram & make a Dash to DBO. Siachen would be well secured if we managed to defend DBO.

 

[scatterStorm]

Two bridges

View attachment 56702

View attachment 56703

1438 km2 area the entire Despang Plain is at stake.

View attachment 56704

After this there are only mountains, ain't no Chinese got the guts to fight in the mountains.

Also the only place beside Demchok where Tanks can Operate.

Tanks can become sitting ducks if they don't have enough movement to operate. Long range arty is the only best option. When Russian invaded Afghanistan, they were fucked due to mountains.

 

[fire starter]

I guess it is kind of an unspoken understanding in army circles is that China will make a dash for Ladakh, at least in northeastern Ladakh in winter, when we will have our supply lines compromised by snow and our troops ill-prepared against fighting in harsh winter.
Also, expect a dash from Pakistan from the Sialkot-Jammu sector.

Within this short span of time, there is little we can do regarding buying proper equipment and laying crucial infrastructure. Might sound a bit dramatic, but the fate of JnK might depend upon the decision of global powers to help India against Pakistan and China.

Another tactic by winnie the pooh for diverting attention.

 

[scatterStorm]

Like I said I won't be surprised if they start landing in Agra to refuel.

It was expected. They need our landing grounds to hurt them the most.

 

[scatterStorm]

Even their deployment of the J-20 is psy-ops. Its actual level of stealth is quite poor and can be tracked by IAF radars, awacs, and even fighters like the SU-30MKI. Besides that, it's a flying brick as a result of carrying its weapons internally. My guess is the Chinese don't actually intend to put the J-20 in harm's way and this is all part of their psy-ops in order to gain territory without losing a single soldier. But India should call their bluff and force their J-20s to take off and destroy them.

There's an extensive discussion been done already on J20 thread. What I speculate is that we cannot underestimate the tactics they are employing. They are developing there tactics even with sub-optimal capability of the Jet like we are doing with our Tejas MK1.

1. J20 has a radar with enough TR modules to track our jets too.
2. Its core capability is to track our Air superiority formations from long range. It won't be surprise if we see them detecting our flight paths, unless we fly low using mountain passes to our advantage.
3. It can detect ground assets like arty because its now being developed as a LO fighter bomber. The Type-B variant.
4. No doubt its not meant for super maneuverability and dog fighting. It was developed to stop impending fighter squadrons at long range to enter into Chinese coastlines and beyond. It was also developed especially with Taiwan in mind too.
5. PL15 missiles actual range is exaggerated but even if they can go beyond 110Km its still lethal for our fighter jets.
6. Luneberg lens are there for a reason, to fool our radars for its RCS. To date, we don't have its actual RCS data. There's a high possibility that we might've picked them due to them using luneberg lens.

We must not be disillusioned to there capability. We must always strike our enemy first, strike them hard, never give them the chance to regroup.

 

[garg_bharat]

India need to depend on itself.

In core interest , no country will support India, these country can only sell normal (not the most advanced) weapon to India.

We are trying to be self reliant for 73 years. We are also trying to be dependent on USSR/Russia/France/UK during the same time. The confusion created has weakened the defence posture.

Shri Ram took help of Kishkindha (a non Vedic kingdom) when he went to war with Ravann. It is perfectly alright to take anybody's help to protect dharmic people. What matters is nation should be protected.

 

[LDev]

I agree that the present situation on the border is a bit worrying.
The French and the Russians supply us weapons without the irritating conditions.

MBDA (France) did not allow integration of the Meteor with the LCA or the SU-30. Would you agree that is an irritating French pre-condition which has ensured that both of these IAF aircraft do not have access to this formidable missile? As far as the Russians are concerned, why do they have 2 different seekers for the Russian Air Force version of their AAMs and the export versions? R-77 seeker vs RVV-AE seeker? Why do they supply the IAF with the export seeker, the[QU same as they supply to China? Isn't India a long time and loyal customer of the USSR and Russia for the last 60 years?

Some French weapons are as good as the American weapons.

Name a specific weapon please.

The US should supply weapons on the same terms as the French and Russians.

What US terms to India for the sale of the Apache AH-64E are at variation with those from the sale of that same helicopter to other countries? And for that matter in what way are the terms of the Apache sale different from the terms of the Rafale sale?

Indians have modified Russian weapons without objections from Russia.
The Su30mki has an Indian mission computer. Will the US agree to such kind of modifications by us on their supplied fighters.[/QUOTE}
India put an Indian MC on the SU-30 because it was superior vis a vis the original. Are the avionics of US planes India may consider dated and obsolete? Consider that the EW suite on both the F-35 and the F-15EX is provided by BAE systems, a British company. Also consider that the Joint New Air to Air Missile being developed jointly by MBDA and Mitsubishi will have a Japanese AESA seeker and use the Meteor ramjet technology to enable it to be integrated with the F-35 for which Northrop Grumann has given Mitsubishi and Japan the source codes for the APG-81 radar. So countries work together. Also consider that MBDA would consider integrating the Meteor with Uttam, an Indian radar but not a Russian or Israeli radar. Obviously because for reasons of commercial competition or security, countries have to be careful. It is not that the US or France are suspicious of India. If that was the case they would not agree to sell high end military equipment to India. But they want to ensure that the technology does not leak beyond India to others. So neither France nor the US want their technology to leak to Russia for security reasons and France does not want their technology to leak to Israel for commercial competitive reasons.

The US military wants us to share the communication protocols used by our Air Force planes to talk to each other meaning they can listen to our secret war time coded communications. WHY?.

The US could not care about listening to Indian pilots talk to each other. The sole purpose of the COMCOSA equipment is to allow India to communicate and exchange data with the US in real time. Why would India want to do that? Maybe because India and the US may want to coordinate military moves against a common adversary.

India poses no threat to the US but the reverse can be true. The despatch of the USS Enterprise to the Indian Ocean during the 1971 war cannot be forgotten easily.

You are still thinking about what happened almost 50 years ago. During that same time frame, China went from being hostile to the US to Nixon travelling to China in 1972 and the US and China becoming best commercial buddies to now the US and China being adversaries again. What am I trying to say? That there ar no permanent friends or enemies in geopolitics. Only permanent interests. China was nimble, it moved fast, grabbed the opportunity and transformed itself using US investments and funding.

The US needs to earn our trust first.

Trust is a 2 way street. It goes both ways

I am not anti US. But I believe many Indians want to be cautious while enhancing relations with the US.

Caution is always wise.

 

[fire starter]

meanwhile China is busy salami slicing Nepal.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Porkis ki aukat...

 

[fire starter]

 

[Tridev123]

The French will not have objections if we wish to integrate Indian systems on to the Mirage 2000.Like integrating Astra Bvr missile. The Su30mki is Russian. Their objection is understandable though personally I would like them to permit it as it make the Su30mki very formidable. I have doubts whether the Meteor can be integrated on the Tejas as we would require quite a long range radar to take advantage of the Meteor. A aam like Meteor with range approaching 200km would require mid course guidance from the launching aircraft. The present radar on Tejas mk1 is Israeli and range was believed to be around 80km even with the quartz radome supplied by Cobham. If the Tejas has an Indian radar with sufficient range then probably the French may reconsider.
All countries export versions of weapons will be downgraded ones compared to the ones in service in their armed forces. Hardly surprising. Even India will do the same if we export the Astramk1or Akash mk1etc. Common sense.

The French anti ship missile the Exocet is a top class weapon having more kills than the Harpoon. Also French Air to Air missiles like the Mica are equal to US missiles. Don't underestimate the French so much. The Meteor is also of French origin to a large extent.

Will continue later.

 

[tarunraju]

So far the Indian governing structures seem incapable of leveraging great human and industrial potential available in the country. This is the worst situation possible.

Despite clear and present danger, the local production of arms has not increased. The weight of inaction and indecision still drags. I am indeed worried.

USSR and USA increased arms production by a factor of 20 during world war.

That's because neither China nor Pakistan (nor a combination of the two) currently have the capacity to wage total war against India.

USA and USSR scaled up wartime production x20 because WWII was a total war. Entire nations were getting capitulated under Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Had Britain fallen, the Axis powers planned grand pincer moves against the US and USSR (i.e. Japan hitting the US west and Germany hitting the US east; and Germany hitting the USSR west, and Japan hitting the USSR east).

The Indian military doctrine is geared toward defending limited war efforts, while a credible minimum nuclear deterrence wards off multi-front war plans by combinations of foreign powers such as the Pak+China combination that's at our gates right now.

 

[Bhurki]

I don't worry about J20's, they're overhyped garbage.

They might not be 5th gen as potrayed, but can it also be afforded to completely discount them as a combat aircraft? They are still dual engined airframes that can drop bombs and launch missiles, and china is on verge to start building a boat load of them.

 

[ataru09]

China was also isolated before 1912(Qing dynasty), collapsed.

Isolate will lead to collapse.

Isolate will only lead to keep away from the world.

Isolation from China is not equal to isolation from the world. USA can afford to isolate itself from China. Can China say the same about itself?

 

[johnq]

There's an extensive discussion been done already on J20 thread. What I speculate is that we cannot underestimate the tactics they are employing. They are developing there tactics even with sub-optimal capability of the Jet like we are doing with our Tejas MK1.

1. J20 has a radar with enough TR modules to track our jets too.
2. Its core capability is to track our Air superiority formations from long range. It won't be surprise if we see them detecting our flight paths, unless we fly low using mountain passes to our advantage.
3. It can detect ground assets like arty because its now being developed as a LO fighter bomber. The Type-B variant.
4. No doubt its not meant for super maneuverability and dog fighting. It was developed to stop impending fighter squadrons at long range to enter into Chinese coastlines and beyond. It was also developed especially with Taiwan in mind too.
5. PL15 missiles actual range is exaggerated but even if they can go beyond 110Km its still lethal for our fighter jets.
6. Luneberg lens are there for a reason, to fool our radars for its RCS. To date, we don't have its actual RCS data. There's a high possibility that we might've picked them due to them using luneberg lens.

We must not be disillusioned to there capability. We must always strike our enemy first, strike them hard, never give them the chance to regroup.

The whole stealth/BVR combo air superiority ability is way exaggerated, for some very simple reasons.
First, complete stealth does not exist. All stealth fighters can be tracked by UHF/VHF radars, and some modern ones like the APY-9 on the E2D can track and send data with a good enough track that can be used for missile engagement. J-20, if you look carefully at its airframe, has many sharp corners in the front, including the canards which are in constant motion. This limits the amount of RAM that can be applied, and it also means that the J-20 can be tracked by the Indian Phalcon Awacs with L-band radar; since these sharp features are below the wavelength of L-band radar. This tracking data can also be used by IAF fighters for BVR engagement, so now we have a level playing field in BVR. IAF also has other long wavelength radars embedded with its early warning and SAMs, etc; let's just say that shooting down the J-20 will not be as difficult as is being made out to be, especially since it has an order of magnitude poorer x-band limited RCS than the western stealth jets. Also, there are issues with ice formation at colder areas like the Himalayas, and ice destroys stealth; even little chips and nicks can destroy stealth, so operating it from airfields in Aksai Chin will not be easy. Personally I think the Chinese screwed up the RCS of the J-20 because of a lack of understanding of what can compromise stealth, like canards and icing. It's also not stealthy at all from the side or rear. Also, given the long range of the MKI radar, it would not have a problem tracking a fighter with one to two orders of magnitude worse RCS than the F-35.
Second, BVR engagement is overhyped. In reality the only time BVR engagement has worked is against adversaries like Iraq with non-existant jamming capabilities. But India doesn't have that problem, hence the AMRAAMs failing against the MKIs. The Chinese always exaggerate their capabilities, and the PL-15 is no exception. Even if it has an AESA radar, it will be countered with wideband jamming and chaff, both of which the IAF has. Once the J-20 has used up its BVR missiles, it has lost any advantage it had. It can be shot by heatseekers even more easily, given the high thrust engines in the rear and the canards (which generate heat from air friction) in the front. And because it's a flying brick (due to internal weapon carriage) with underpowered Russian engines, it needs to light up its afterburner every time it turns or runs.
Sure they can employ tactics, but I am not worried for the simple reason that I know what the IAF boys are capable of. They took out F-15s with Mig-21s in exercises, and actually shot down an F-16 with a Mig-21!
Lastly, the Chinese are all about the psychological game of intimidation, and that is the real reason for all the J-20s, nukes, long-range bombers, etc on the border. No military planner in their right mind would do these things, except to intimidate the enemy. The only way the Chinese win is if they can scare Indian govt. into inaction, so they can keep grabbing more territory without losing anything.
If India fights back, I guarantee the Chinese will back off, just like they did in 1962: Otherwise why did they retreat behind the McMahon Line after coming down to Assam? And that was against soldiers with canvas shoes with very little support from the IAF. India should take its time to fully prepare, and then throw the Chinese out of the Himalayas permanently, destroying all their roads, bridges, railroads, dams, tunnels, etc so they cannot come back.

 

[Sarjen]

You say the IAF is not a third world airforce but every now and then, there are proposals to buy some awfully old M2k aircraft’s which are being phased out by other third world airforces. The platforms that you dismiss as very old are still being bought today, the F18 & the F15ex by the US and the F16 has just been sold to Taiwan. We are still building an aircraft platform that even the test pilots claim “ remind them of an M2k”, an Aircraft which, unlike the American ones is not even being manufactured anymore and it’s production line was shut some 15 years ago. Clearly we need aircraft’s that make up the numbers but don’t break the bank in the process. Even that aircraft, the Tejas has an American engine and even the upgrade will have the same engine as that on the F18.. We are deluding ourselves if we believe we can buy 100’s of Rafales, not only are they frightfully expensive but the weapons, atleast those from the French will almost certainly destroy what’s left of the bank! That’s how expensive they are. So ridiculously expensive that even the French had to rush to buy American after a very brief campaign in Libya since they simply ran out of stock. Nor will we ever get the Rafales in any reasonable time frame, not like the Chinese will be waiting quietly.

More importantly, we have an finance problem. We can’t afford the Rafale , we can’t even afford the cheaper American platforms either. We simply have shafted ourselves in the worst possible way by 2 decades of stupidity. Our one chance to get more military equipment is to negotiate a deal with the Americans that involves long term financing, no one else will be able to offer us that. Considering that we really need to upgrade the Sukhois urgently, we are not going to be able to afford a whole lot. That’s the stark truth.

Let me state that again NO... IAF isn't third world airforce... Yes IAF buying old Jets to fill the sqd of existing fleet as stop gap measure. When you say Taiwan buying F16s, they already have them so they don't have to dev a everything req for a jet from scratch which we have to do which eats into your plate + huge amount of time which we don't fancy right now. So Yes only logical option is Rafale. and please don't say inducting F18/16/15 isn't going to take the big chunk of our funds... if you think you're obviously mistaken and i don't know what's the new capability they can bring that Rafale don't ???