India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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Sarjen

Sarjen

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Mikesingh said:
Cost factor. Just a shade below $100 million! Then the weapons package, infrastructure, training, life cycle costs and so on and we can arrive at a princely figure of $140 million-$150 million a pop!

In April 2018, Boeing announced a partnership with HAL and Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) to manufacture the F/A-18 Super Hornet Blk III in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme. Nothing came out of it however. But HAL is producing gun bay doors for the F/A-18 Super Hornet since 2018.

The advantage of having the F/A-18 Super Hornet Blk III could have delivered on India’s need for a carrier and land-based multi-role fighter being the least expensive aircraft per flight hour of its kind with advanced survivability and continuous evolution.

The F/A-18 – the Blk III – is able to perform a variety of tactical missions such as air superiority, day/night strike with PGMs, fighter escort, CAS, SEAD, maritime strike, reconnaissance, and so on. Quite a bang for the buck. But then we have other plans! Many! And no one knows which is going to see the light of day!
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The same Missions can also be performed by Rafale. why have multiple platform ??? now if you want to go for F18, 1. Notice, 2. Trial, 3. Selection, 4. Price Negotiation, 5. Contract Signing, 6. Delivery, 7. Training, Infra Dev and tactics for the Jets would take Many years and by the time 5th Gen would reach mid life or who knows AMCA might have the first flight....

Infra and training is already there for Rafale and it's logic to add more numbers of rafale than going for New 4.5 Gen fighters.. If we go ahead with the MRCA then we'd be the biggest Jokers of the century.
 
Sarjen

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doreamon said:
Yeah does nt make ny sense . If we had so much money then we wld have gone for 126 rafael . Onlything i m bothering abt it time taken to deliver the aircrafts . Some reports were saying desault ll complete its delivery by 2024 . I hope its fake news . As far as weapon delivery time is concerned no nation can compete americans.. A country which can produce 180+ 5th gen aircraft per year .
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Never heard of 2024 timeline, All should be delivered by 2022-23 maybe the french want follow up from India.
yes the American can deliver on time, but why buy some old platform which are being phased out in US ?? It dosn't matter even the updated Jets are pitched for us.. IAF is not a third world Air force, If we need to be in the game always stay ahead with Technology. Yes the Chinese J20 is not stealthy enough but that doesn't mean they won't achieve that in coming years.. Betting everything on 4.5 Gen is not going to help us in anyway, MRCA is going to wreck havoc in IAF.... have no idea why MOD is going it ?? maybe politics in play here
 
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garg_bharat said:
F*** the mutual respect. A country like us who is so ignorant about self defence deserves no respect. If India was really deserving of respect, it would have its 46 squadrons, and 3000 artillery pieces of 155 caliber.
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Bro, why the anguish and anger. Granted that the Chinese are sitting on our necks.
But you have to understand that context. An example, India and Pakistan have a pact to not attack each others nuclear facilities and exchange lists of declared nuclear installations.

Now if the Porks suddenly decide to violate the pact and launch a surprise attack on one of our nuclear installations, it is fully possible that they may succeed. It is treachery. Responsible nations normally do not violate bilateral pacts.

The Chinese did exactly such an act of treachery. India and China have signed many border management pacts which lays down certain rules to avoid any accidental flare up between the two armies. India believed that the Chinese will not violate the agreements. It is not at all difficult for one side to take some unilateral action as long as the other side does not have prior intelligence of the action. India could have stabbed the Chinese in the back by suddenly occupying an unmanned piece of land in Tibet. So the PLA did nothing heroic. Remember the Indo-China border is very long and not guarded everywhere. The manpower required to physically occupy every inch of the border would be prohibitive.

Of course one can have issues with our response to the Chinese action. Countries deter potential aggressors by the threat of tit for tat. If the Chinese can occupy our land nothing prevents us from occupying Chinese controlled land elsewhere on the border.

We have not chosen to follow that course of action for reasons unknown. Maybe the Government has some genuine reasons to believe that a tit for tat response would not be the most appropriate at this time. We can only speculate. Could be that they believe we can force the Chinese to withdraw without waging war.

Regarding shortage of equipment I agree we could have been better prepared. Our country makes the acquisition process of weapons too complicated and time consuming.
But I wish to point out that various experts have not given China any overwhelming advantage over India. In absolute terms they may have more numbers of weapons but they cannot deploy everything on our border. Their supply lines to Tibet from the Chinese mainland are extended and can be destroyed in war. Our supply lines are much shorter. So I believe a rough equivalence exists between the Chinese and us.
By no means will a war with us be a cakewalk for them.

As far as our air assets go, I feel acquiring additional Rafale squadrons is the most practical step. If the French are willing to manufacture here and also provide us some technology all the better. The Rafale is better than all of the planes with the Chinese Air Force. Forget about the J20. It is still not a proven platform. It may take the Chinese even a decade to perfect it.
Everybody agrees that the long term solution to the needs of the Indian Air Force is in developing and building indigenous planes. We have started the journey with the Tejas LCA.

Regarding Artillery we are at a turning point with various options available. Things can only improve. Dhanush, ATAGS, Sharang, M777 and Baba Kalyani gun systems. The list is long.

While I understand your frustration with our level of preparation especially in fighter aircraft and artillery please understand India is not standing naked before China. The Chinese understand our strength and this is precisely the reason why they felt the need to shift two J20 fighters into the Tibet region from mainland China.
 
SimplyIndian

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garg_bharat said:
Because war cannot be postponed beyond one year. None of the projects you mentioned except LCA mark 1 is available.

I am warning that non-availability of fighters will be very costly for ground troops.

We have to take into account attrition in air, on ground etc. and heavy need for ground support.
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If war is supposed to happen, it will be in next 6 months max, after that no one want to fight. And no one is going to give us war munitions in 6 months forget about g to g Contract, delivery, preparedness time.

We should invest in LCA platform and in nexy few years, we will be formidable force at the same time save alot of forex which help developing non defence sectors too.
 
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Mikesingh said:
Cost factor. Just a shade below $100 million! Then the weapons package, infrastructure, training, life cycle costs and so on and we can arrive at a princely figure of $140 million-$150 million a pop!

In April 2018, Boeing announced a partnership with HAL and Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) to manufacture the F/A-18 Super Hornet Blk III in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme. Nothing came out of it however. But HAL is producing gun bay doors for the F/A-18 Super Hornet since 2018.

The advantage of having the F/A-18 Super Hornet Blk III could have delivered on India’s need for a carrier and land-based multi-role fighter being the least expensive aircraft per flight hour of its kind with advanced survivability and continuous evolution.

The F/A-18 – the Blk III – is able to perform a variety of tactical missions such as air superiority, day/night strike with PGMs, fighter escort, CAS, SEAD, maritime strike, reconnaissance, and so on. Quite a bang for the buck. But then we have other plans! Many! And no one knows which is going to see the light of day!
Click to expand...
A huge plus for US platforms is the diverse weapons capability associated with them.

The F-18 will be in service with the USN for some time and is already slated to receive the AIM-260 ahead of the F-35 so Boeing will continue to innovate system upgrades for the next 10 years at least. The fact that they are due to receive the AIM 260 means that the USN carriers will fly the F-18 and F-35 concurrently for some time. For the IAF on the negative side it just does not have the kinetic performance that the IAF wants/expects from an Air Force focused fighter.

The "lowly" F-16 Block 70 offered to the IAF (as the F-21) already has the JASSAM-ER integrated with it. This stealthy cruise missile with a 450 kg warhead has a range of about 1000 km, far outranging the SCALP with it's 560 km range. Poland has just signed a contract to arm it's F-16s with the JASSAM-ER. But in terms of AAMs, it will not receive the AIM 260. So the question is one of priorities. Is the IAF looking for an air to air fighter or is it looking for strike options. A negative with the F-16 is that it is at the end of it's life cycle. And LM is not going to upgrade it further. Given that the IAF is looking for an aircraft to be viable to at least the 2040 timeframe, the F-16 does not fit in. Though it will IMO by far the cheapest to buy and operate.

The F-15 in it's latest offering the F-15EX is a formidable aircraft. 14-15 tons of payload, 11 hardpoints, can be armed with the AIM-120D, AIM-9X, JASSAM-ER and will have the EPAWSS EW system designed by BAE Systems, the same company that has provided the F-35 with it's ASQ-239 EW suite. The USAF plans to buy 144 of them and plan to keep them current upto 2045. Plus they have the kind of kinetic performance the IAF loves, Max speed Mach 2.5, service ceiling 60,000 feet, airframe rated upto Mach 3. And an airframe life of 20,000 hours which is more than 3x the SU-30s. Given the IAF'S above average annual training flight hours per pilot, this long airframe life will be of great value. The F-15EX will also likely in the future get the JASSAM-XR, a development of the JASSAM-ER. The XR will have a range of 1800 km. It will also get the hypersonic boost to glide ARRW weapon to strike targets over 1500 km away at Mach 7-20.

Buying more Rafale will be the easiest but because of lack of economies of scale Rafale upgrades are expensive. However Dassault will keep the Rafale current with upgrades at least until the proposed FCAS is ready for deployment. That will be in the 2035-2040 time frame. Plus in the air to air domain the Meteor is formidable. However the EW suite has not been proven against a networked AD system with long range SAMs like the S-300 or S-400. In Libya the Rafale knocked out a Turkish SAM battery which had a range of 35 km using the HAMMER glide kit with a 60 km range. Replacing SCALP is a work in progress, it's replacement by MBDA will likely be supersonic/hypersonic but deployment time frames are uncertain as of now.
 
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Sarjen

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LDev said:
Buying more Rafale will be the easiest but because of lack of economies of scale Rafale upgrades are expensive. However Dassault will keep the Rafale current with upgrades at least until the proposed FCAS is ready for deployment. That will be in the 2035-2040 time frame. Plus in the air to air domain the Meteor is formidable. However the EW suite has not been proven against a networked AD system with long range SAMs like the S-300 or S-400. In Libya the Rafale knocked out a Turkish SAM battery which had a range of 35 km using the HAMMER glide kit with a 60 km range. Replacing SCALP is a work in progress, it's replacement by MBDA will likely be supersonic/hypersonic but deployment time frames are uncertain as of now.
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The Price tag for Rafale is worth spending, given the costs of integrating another platform (f15) from time spent on test, negotiation, contract, delivery, training & Infra dev.
 
tarunraju

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tarunraju said:
PLA's Tencent indirectly funding IPL through Dream11.

www.news18.com

The Chinese Connection behind Start-up Dream11, IPL 2020's Official Title Sponsor - News18

Chinese internet giant Tencent Holdings Ltd is one of the financial backers of Dream11. Last year, it became India’s first gaming start-up to be valued at over $1 billion. And the BCCI is stressing on the fact that Dream11 is an Indian company.
www.news18.com www.news18.com
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To be honest, I dont mind the money coming in. I say take it all in and dump the company
 
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