India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Sarjen]

To be honest, I dont mind the money coming in. I say take it all in and dump the company

Do you know how much Dream11 would earn out of this sponsorship ?? and theses benefits will be enjoyed by Tencent as well.

 

[Arbit]

Yeah, take the money, get Indian small-town bumpkins addicted to a new gambling habit called Dream11, and send billions more to the PLA's war chest. Brilliant idea.

Sir, I also said dump the company.

If they won't give this truckload of money to IPL they will anyway place ads online, hire some brand ambassador, and spend a lesser amount elsewhere.
Mere getting a sponsorship doesn't magically make a company hit amongst the masses.

Sabotage the suckers. We really need to work on an alternate line of thinking. This straight thinking does sometimes gets my goat.

 

[Tridev123]

A huge plus for US platforms is the diverse weapons capability associated with them.

The F-18 will be in service with the USN for some time and is already slated to receive the AIM-260 ahead of the F-35 so Boeing will continue to innovate system upgrades for the next 10 years at least. The fact that they are due to receive the AIM 260 means that the USN carriers will fly the F-18 and F-35 concurrently for some time. For the IAF on the negative side it just does not have the kinetic performance that the IAF wants/expects from an Air Force focused fighter.

The "lowly" F-16 Block 70 offered to the IAF (as the F-21) already has the JASSAM-ER integrated with it. This stealthy cruise missile with a 450 kg warhead has a range of about 1000 km, far outranging the SCALP with it's 560 km range. Poland has just signed a contract to arm it's F-16s with the JASSAM-ER. But in terms of AAMs, it will not receive the AIM 260. So the question is one of priorities. Is the IAF looking for an air to air fighter or is it looking for strike options. A negative with the F-16 is that it is at the end of it's life cycle. And LM is not going to upgrade it further. Given that the IAF is looking for an aircraft to be viable to at least the 2040 timeframe, the F-16 does not fit in. Though it will IMO by far the cheapest to buy and operate.

The F-15 in it's latest offering the F-15EX is a formidable aircraft. 14-15 tons of payload, 11 hardpoints, can be armed with the AIM-120D, AIM-9X, JASSAM-ER and will have the EPAWSS EW system designed by BAE Systems, the same company that has provided the F-35 with it's ASQ-239 EW suite. The USAF plans to buy 144 of them and plan to keep them current upto 2045. Plus they have the kind of kinetic performance the IAF loves, Max speed Mach 2.5, service ceiling 60,000 feet, airframe rated upto Mach 3. And an airframe life of 20,000 hours which is more than 3x the SU-30s. Given the IAF'S above average annual training flight hours per pilot, this long airframe life will be of great value. The F-15EX will also likely in the future get the JASSAM-XR, a development of the JASSAM-ER. The XR will have a range of 1800 km. It will also get the hypersonic boost to glide ARRW weapon to strike targets over 1500 km away at Mach 7-20.

Buying more Rafale will be the easiest but because of lack of economies of scale Rafale upgrades are expensive. However Dassault will keep the Rafale current with upgrades at least until the proposed FCAS is ready for deployment. That will be in the 2035-2040 time frame. Plus in the air to air domain the Meteor is formidable. However the EW suite has not been proven against a networked AD system with long range SAMs like the S-300 or S-400. In Libya the Rafale knocked out a Turkish SAM battery which had a range of 35 km using the HAMMER glide kit with a 60 km range. Replacing SCALP is a work in progress, it's replacement by MBDA will likely be supersonic/hypersonic but deployment time frames are uncertain as of now.

Nobody argues about the quality of most US weapons. The main issues are different.
1.Highly intrusive inspections in the name of end user verification.
2.Restricted freedom to use the weapons as seen fit by the user.
3.Forced to sign other agreements like the Comcasa, Lemoa, Gsomia, Beca etc.
4.Strategic autonomy of user is eroded.
5.Weapon systems cannot be modified by the user.
6.The US Congress and Senate can impose sanctions on the user and stop spares
supply. Political interference by the US Legislature.

As far as the F16 is concerned it is a fine plane but its death warrant was signed when Pakistan acquired it. Would be insane to buy a plane that the PAF has been operating for 3 decades. Would require Pakistan to cease to be a threat to India and consider India as a brother nation. Would never happen in the near or medium future. The F35 has the best prospects but will the US sell to India without too many conditions.

 

[mist_consecutive]

I guess it is kind of an unspoken understanding in army circles is that China will make a dash for Ladakh, at least in northeastern Ladakh in winter, when we will have our supply lines compromised by snow and our troops ill-prepared against fighting in harsh winter.
Also, expect a dash from Pakistan from the Sialkot-Jammu sector.

Within this short span of time, there is little we can do regarding buying proper equipment and laying crucial infrastructure. Might sound a bit dramatic, but the fate of JnK might depend upon the decision of global powers to help India against Pakistan and China.

 

[Kumata]

I guess it is kind of an unspoken understanding in army circles is that China will make a dash for Ladakh, at least in northeastern Ladakh in winter, when we will have our supply lines compromised by snow and our troops ill-prepared against fighting in harsh winter.
Also, expect a dash from Pakistan from the Sialkot-Jammu sector.

Within this short span of time, there is little we can do regarding buying proper equipment and laying crucial infrastructure. Might sound a bit dramatic, but the fate of JnK might depend upon the decision of global powers to help India against Pakistan and China.

Our supplies will be compromised off course but think you overlooked below...I am not sure if forward roads beyond tunnel are ready but i believe it will use existing roads. Having a all weather connectivity to leh was the primary reason to build rohtang tunnel.

I don't think current dispensation is foolish enough that they have not thought of this 2 front war situation and did not bought cold weather equipments for our soldiers..... Anyways If this happens than we have a hugely capable navy as well to stretch porks and chinese. Pork won'; t be able to tolerate pounding from naval assets for a full day IMO .. and chinese navy cannot operate so far away in IOR.

I am sure our gernails have already played this scenario in their heads and in various war games...

Rohtang Tunnel: PM Modi likely to inaugurate world’s longest highway tunnel above 10,000 feet in September

Chief Minister of Himachal Pradesh Jai Ram Thakur announced that the strategic Atal Tunnel would be entirely completed by the end of next month and it is likely yo be dedicated to the nation by PM Modi in September.

www.financialexpress.com

 

[LDev]

Nobody argues about the quality of most US weapons. The main issues are different.
1.Highly intrusive inspections in the name of end user verification.
2.Restricted freedom to use the weapons as seen fit by the user.
3.Forced to sign other agreements like the Comcasa, Lemoa, Gsomia, Beca etc.
4.Strategic autonomy of user is eroded.
5.Weapon systems cannot be modified by the user.
6.The US Congress and Senate can impose sanctions on the user and stop spares
supply. Political interference by the US Legislature.

As far as the F16 is concerned it is a fine plane but its death warrant was signed when Pakistan acquired it. Would be insane to buy a plane that the PAF has been operating for 3 decades. Would require Pakistan to cease to be a threat to India and consider India as a brother nation. Would never happen in the near or medium future. The F35 has the best prospects but will the US sell to India without too many conditions.

That is a call for the Indian political leadership to take. But IMO that ship has already sailed. COMCOSA (already signed) enables the use of encrypted tactical data links (Link 16) between US and Indian platforms. Currently IMO the P8I, Rafale and Mirage 2000 can use it. Whether the communication radios have already been fitted on the Indian platforms is another question. The Armee del Air Rafales and Mirage 2000s are already so equipped. BECA another agreement under negotiations will enable the use of US geospatial maps to guide Indian platforms e.g. if India acquires Predator B drones from the US, BECA will be a pre-requisite. That India wants Predator B drones is an indication that BECA will be signed soon. So having gone down the road to this extent with the US, I think it is superflous to talk about kill switches and sanctions at this stage. Specially with China breathing down Ladakh.

 

[Spindrift]

 

[Lancer]

42-45 squadrons; mostly made up of LCA and its spinoffs (MK2, ORCA) + force multipliers like AWACS, Tankers, Advanced ADS (like S400) and assigning some old roles to new tech (Brahmos for certain PGM strikes, Attack Helicopters for CAS).

India would be in excellent shape to meet any threat.

 

[Bhurki]

42-45 squadrons; mostly made up of LCA and its spinoffs (MK2, ORCA) + force multipliers like AWACS, Tankers, Advanced ADS (like S400) and assigning some old roles to new tech (Brahmos for certain PGM strikes, Attack Helicopters for CAS).

India would be in excellent shape to meet any threat.

Probably by 2030.
Not to forget, china will have about 500 J-20 by then and some might even flow to pakistan

 

[Lancer]

Probably by 2030.
Not to forget, china will have about 500 J-20 by then and some might even flow to pakistan

I don't worry about J20's, they're overhyped garbage.

 

[Brood Father]

I guess it is kind of an unspoken understanding in army circles is that China will make a dash for Ladakh, at least in northeastern Ladakh in winter, when we will have our supply lines compromised by snow and our troops ill-prepared against fighting in harsh winter.
Also, expect a dash from Pakistan from the Sialkot-Jammu sector.

Within this short span of time, there is little we can do regarding buying proper equipment and laying crucial infrastructure. Might sound a bit dramatic, but the fate of JnK might depend upon the decision of global powers to help India against Pakistan and China.

I agree about China but Pakistan wouldn't take risk crossing the IB at Sialkot ..that would be formal declaration of war ..Good luck to them saving Karachi or Lahore ..Frustrated India would raise hell on pakistan and Pakistan would burn for months ..the situation might also escalate to nuclear (finally we will get to decimate Pakistan for good) ..
However Pakistan can be a little cheeky and grab Siachin..that way it would avoid any major retaliation from India as all roads to Siachin would be occupied by China(If China attack and capture more strategic heights in Laddhak)
I guess this winter would be dramatic

 

[Indrajit]

Never heard of 2024 timeline, All should be delivered by 2022-23 maybe the french want follow up from India.
yes the American can deliver on time, but why buy some old platform which are being phased out in US ?? It dosn't matter even the updated Jets are pitched for us.. IAF is not a third world Air force, If we need to be in the game always stay ahead with Technology. Yes the Chinese J20 is not stealthy enough but that doesn't mean they won't achieve that in coming years.. Betting everything on 4.5 Gen is not going to help us in anyway, MRCA is going to wreck havoc in IAF.... have no idea why MOD is going it ?? maybe politics in play here

You say the IAF is not a third world airforce but every now and then, there are proposals to buy some awfully old M2k aircraft’s which are being phased out by other third world airforces. The platforms that you dismiss as very old are still being bought today, the F18 & the F15ex by the US and the F16 has just been sold to Taiwan. We are still building an aircraft platform that even the test pilots claim “ remind them of an M2k”, an Aircraft which, unlike the American ones is not even being manufactured anymore and it’s production line was shut some 15 years ago. Clearly we need aircraft’s that make up the numbers but don’t break the bank in the process. Even that aircraft, the Tejas has an American engine and even the upgrade will have the same engine as that on the F18.. We are deluding ourselves if we believe we can buy 100’s of Rafales, not only are they frightfully expensive but the weapons, atleast those from the French will almost certainly destroy what’s left of the bank! That’s how expensive they are. So ridiculously expensive that even the French had to rush to buy American after a very brief campaign in Libya since they simply ran out of stock. Nor will we ever get the Rafales in any reasonable time frame, not like the Chinese will be waiting quietly.

More importantly, we have an finance problem. We can’t afford the Rafale , we can’t even afford the cheaper American platforms either. We simply have shafted ourselves in the worst possible way by 2 decades of stupidity. Our one chance to get more military equipment is to negotiate a deal with the Americans that involves long term financing, no one else will be able to offer us that. Considering that we really need to upgrade the Sukhois urgently, we are not going to be able to afford a whole lot. That’s the stark truth.

 

[Indrajit]

F*** the mutual respect. A country like us who is so ignorant about self defence deserves no respect. If India was really deserving of respect, it would have its 46 squadrons, and 3000 artillery pieces of 155 caliber.

I concur with this sentiment.

 

[tarunraju]

Might sound a bit dramatic, but the fate of JnK might depend upon the decision of global powers to help India against Pakistan and China.

Or Modi's decision to nuke Islamabad and Beijing. If India believed it needed outside help to face a Pakistan+China combine, we'd be hearing a very different tone from Delhi.

Right now the tone and tenor of Modi, Jaishankar, and Rajnath are defiant. We have the strategic depth to humiliate China if tries anything in Ladakh, while simultaneously throwing Pakistan 20 years back in time before they move a finger.

Ladakh is invaluable real-estate, and Modi can risk nuking Beijing over it.

 

[garg_bharat]

Trump says he ‘cancelled’ China trade talks, blames Beijing over virus

President says ‘I don’t want to talk to China right now’; review of phase one deal at six-month mark now postponed indefinitely.

www.scmp.com

Trump says he ‘cancelled’ US-China trade talks, blames Beijing over coronavirus

This is the best news in a long time. Made my day.
Nobody should negotiate with Chini. These guys need to be isolated.

 

[HKedifier]

This is the best news in a long time. Made my day.
Nobody should negotiate with Chini. These guys need to be isolated.

The Soviet Union had the same idea at the time, and everybody saw the result

 

[Kumata]

Or Modi's decision to nuke Islamabad and Beijing. If India believed it needed outside help to face a Pakistan+China combine, we'd be hearing a very different tone from Delhi.

Right now the tone and tenor of Modi, Jaishankar, and Rajnath are defiant. We have the strategic depth to humiliate China if tries anything in Ladakh, while simultaneously throwing Pakistan 20 years back in time before they move a finger.

Ladakh is invaluable real-estate, and Modi can risk nuking Beijing over it.

My stand on Porki nukes is that they Own them. The real key to use them lies with uncle SAM or Saudi's.

Rest, i agree. When it's about survival.. u dont worry about results...but i still don't see nukes being used, in current scenario.

All we need to do is call chinese bluff, we have already called their bluff in galwan and they know it ..but fools still think they can make it due to their false sense of superiority ...Once their ego is crushed, they will simply tuck their tails in their ass and step back....

 

[Kumata]

The Soviet Union had the same idea at the time, and everybody saw the result

well, soviets did not factor in the backup plan before going ahead ... So there is a difference.. Americans have it planned fully ... there is a reason china is still alive..and not gang banged yet

 

[garg_bharat]

Or Modi's decision to nuke Islamabad and Beijing. If India believed it needed outside help to face a Pakistan+China combine, we'd be hearing a very different tone from Delhi.

Right now the tone and tenor of Modi, Jaishankar, and Rajnath are defiant. We have the strategic depth to humiliate China if tries anything in Ladakh, while simultaneously throwing Pakistan 20 years back in time before they move a finger.

Ladakh is invaluable real-estate, and Modi can risk nuking Beijing over it.

India needs to put up a strong fight. Outcome is less important than the effort. And to put up a strong fight; India needs to leverage the entire civilian industry.

So far the Indian governing structures seem incapable of leveraging great human and industrial potential available in the country. This is the worst situation possible.

Despite clear and present danger, the local production of arms has not increased. The weight of inaction and indecision still drags. I am indeed worried.

USSR and USA increased arms production by a factor of 20 during world war.

 

[Tridev123]

That is a call for the Indian political leadership to take. But IMO that ship has already sailed. COMCOSA (already signed) enables the use of encrypted tactical data links (Link 16) between US and Indian platforms. Currently IMO the P8I, Rafale and Mirage 2000 can use it. Whether the communication radios have already been fitted on the Indian platforms is another question. The Armee del Air Rafales and Mirage 2000s are already so equipped. BECA another agreement under negotiations will enable the use of US geospatial maps to guide Indian platforms e.g. if India acquires Predator B drones from the US, BECA will be a pre-requisite. That India wants Predator B drones is an indication that BECA will be signed soon. So having gone down the road to this extent with the US, I think it is superflous to talk about kill switches and sanctions at this stage. Specially with China breathing down Ladakh.

I agree that the present situation on the border is a bit worrying.
The French and the Russians supply us weapons without the irritating conditions.
Some French weapons are as good as the American weapons.
The US should supply weapons on the same terms as the French and Russians.
Indians have modified Russian weapons without objections from Russia.
The Su30mki has an Indian mission computer. Will the US agree to such kind of modifications by us on their supplied fighters.
The US military wants us to share the communication protocols used by our Air Force planes to talk to each other meaning they can listen to our secret war time coded communications. WHY?.
India poses no threat to the US but the reverse can be true. The despatch of the USS Enterprise to the Indian Ocean during the 1971 war cannot be forgotten easily.
The US needs to earn our trust first.

I am not anti US. But I believe many Indians want to be cautious while enhancing relations with the US.