India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[daya]

And they call it stealth. It is a joke on the name of stealth. You can not spot F-35 or F22 untill it is visible. J 20 can be spotted 300 km away.

It may not be stealth plane, but they must be appreciated for production lines, reverse engineering. We are lagging much behind in production rate. Though, definitely, we can not adopt the policies as adopted by Chinese, there is still a greater scope for improving our policies in this matter and we have potential, too..

 

[Illusive]

Small nation like Japan will have over 150 5th gen fighter jets.

Meanwhile we are celebrating like idiots over receiving 5 4.5-gen Rafale jets.

That small nation is the 3rd largest Economy in the world. Japan is a country with self-imposed restrictions on defense, it is good they are finally waking up from their slumber. No one should ever underestimate Japan and Germany.

 

[Suryavanshi]

It all comes down to force structure. Japan has a total of 250,000 personnel in uniform of whom 150,000 are the ground forces (Army). The Indian Army alone is about 1.2 million in comparison, the IAF and IN another 250,000. India has 2 hostile borders and thousands of MBTs, Japan has a few hundred as it's land defence is really the defence of it's many islands..Japan's armed forces retirees do not get a pension: they get a one time lump sum payment on retirement so there is no continuing liability like India where 28% of the defence budget goes to fund pensions. And that is why inspite of having a defence budget of $50 billion which is less than the $70 billion that India spends, Japan can afford to buy new equipment like 147 F-35s whereas India struggles to come up with money to buy 36 Rafale.

But India does need a fundamental re-think of it's force structure.

Your point is alright but a drowning man can make no excuses.
We have to make the best of what we have.
If we consider Indian Defence Forces as a Machine than the Machine isn't operating at its full capability, more like 65 to 75% Efficiency.
We can squeeze out more from our 60 billion budget.
The partial reason for this inefficiency lies in our structure itself, the reason being
- No set of goals and vsion in the armed forces.
- Civil service donination of MOD.
- Communication gap between the armed forces and Civil Service cadre.
- Fear of Coup in the Politicians.
- Unchecked Corruptions and Lack of Transparency in the armed forces.
- British Era Doctrine
- Lack of Coordination in each and every wing of defence IN, IAF, IA, SF.
- Communication Gap between PSU anf Defences forces.
- MOD being in the Parliament.

 

[Haldilal]

Your point is alright but a drowning man can make no excuses.
We have to make the best of what we have.
If we consider Indian Defence Forces as a Machine than the Machine isn't operating at its full capability, more like 65 to 75% Efficiency.
We can squeeze out more from our 60 billion budget.
The partial reason for this inefficiency lies in our structure itself, the reason being
- No set of goals and vsion in the armed forces.
- Civil service donination of MOD.
- Communication gap between the armed forces and Civil Service cadre.
- Fear of Coup in the Politicians.
- Unchecked Corruptions and Lack of Transparency in the armed forces.
- British Era Doctrine
- Lack of Coordination in each and every wing of defence IN, IAF, IA, SF.
- Communication Gap between PSU anf Defences forces.
- MOD being in the Parliament.

There is a almost simple solution Let the PMO office handle the MOD directly, We need Babbar Sher right now not Kadi Ninda.

 

[Suryavanshi]

First thing first stop politicizing Armed forces
Armed forces aren't token to win election.

We need our own Pentagon.
Separate MOD from Parliament, give them their own building the defence minister would be permanently be seated here and will only show up in the parliament to give briefing.
Let's call this building Trident or Trishul.
Reduce civilian interference in the armed forces.
Ias are nothing but glorified accountants. They should be mere advisers to the Defence minister.

Make a permanent team of Representatives of all defence related PSU in the trident.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

First thing first stop politicizing Armed forces
Armed forces aren't token to win election.

We need our own Pentagon.
Separate MOD from Parliament, give them their own building the defence minister would be permanently be seated here and will only show up in the parliament to give briefing.
Let's call this building Trident or Trishul.
Reduce civilian interference in the armed forces.
Ias are nothing but glorified accountants. They should be mere advisers to the Defence minister.

Make a permanent team of Representatives of all defence related PSU in the trident.

Our own Pentagon???!! Seriously man??

Then we need to purge Khangress.... And also the leftis... And along with those f*cktards who claim to be secular unless their groins are on fire.

 

[Lancer]

Excellent point to ponder upon.
======
Japan's F-15 fleet is getting worn out due to heightened Chinese air activity. India is going to face semi-hot/tense borders throughout this decade. We need the Tejas in serious numbers to maintain our posture. Can't have Su-30MKIs & Rafales pulling alerts all the time.

S400 has an important role to play there too.

 

[Lancer]

First thing first stop politicizing Armed forces
Armed forces aren't token to win election.

We need our own Pentagon.
Separate MOD from Parliament, give them their own building the defence minister would be permanently be seated here and will only show up in the parliament to give briefing.
Let's call this building Trident or Trishul.
Reduce civilian interference in the armed forces.
Ias are nothing but glorified accountants. They should be mere advisers to the Defence minister.

Make a permanent team of Representatives of all defence related PSU in the trident.

Need to seriously increase retired/"loaned" military personnel in the Ministry of Defense too.

A civilian leader (PM/Pres) exercising final control over an answerable military doesn't mean that you hollow the military out from within by filling it with selfish/corrupt/traitorous or downright idiotic bureaucrats.

 

[jadoogar]

Because of the very partisan nature of current US politics, before the elections, it is difficult to parse as to whether the Democratic Party also believes in the current Trump hardline towards China. But I won't be surprised if behind the scenes there has been a fast anti China pivot within the Democratic Party. Things will be clearer after the election rhetoric is finished. But the US and China are on a collision course, no mistake about that, even if China is not shown as the villain in popular culture and that is primarily because China is part of the dollar trading system. But the economic strangulation of China via the dollar system will continue. There have been huge dollar shortages in Hong Kong as well as mainland China with people wanting to change Yuan/HK dollars to dollars turned away by banks

For India for now, deterrence has to be rooted in a strong defence so that China is not tempted to go for another round of salami slicing.

It is not a dollar shortage per se. The usual suspects still pour foreign currency into the prc.

Rather it is a vast excess of prc currency due to prc money printing. So yes you could call it "a dollar shortage relative to circulating prc currency".

 

[johnq]

I read that the J-20 is designed as a long range interceptor ,

so i guessing no dogfight . just shoot the pl-15 and scoot .

BVR missiles usually have very poor kill rates in the presence of jamming and countermeasures. That is why all those AMRAAMs missed their targets after Balakot. Even if the PL-15 has frequency-hopping AESA radar, the IAF has countermeasures against that such as wideband jamming and countermeasures like chaff which work no matter which frequency is being emitted. Now radar also does funny things in mountainous regions because of radar reflections, so China is welcome to waste its PL-15 missiles, but the IAF has countermeasures to it. The J-20 will be detected by IAF long wave radar and can be shot down by IAF's Mica IIR missile or Meteor guided via datalink, or SAMs. This thing has such a massive heat signature due to its huge engines and poor aerodynamics, due to carrying weapons inside (larger cross section). Its canards are also going to give off a nice heat signature against the icy Himalayan background. So it has high IR signature in the front and the back; it can be targeted by OSF Mica combination. Most likely it will be detected even by x-band radar due to icing up in the cold weather, hence stealth goes out the window.
In any war, superior piloting and tactics always come out on top, and Indian pilots are far above Chinese pilots. The whole J-20 deployment is psy-ops, but I guarantee that the IAF will destroy them if war breaks out.

 

[johnq]

China's blind arrogance will lead to its defeat.

 

[fire starter]

 

[Cheran]

 

[Blue Water Navy]

I am betting if Modiji sees our comments and ideas in this forum. He will be like 'screw the guy who gave the idea of demonetization. I shall consult these guys for any future ideas'.

 

[prasadr14]

What is the strategic impact of this on current situation?

 

[ezsasa]

I am betting if Modiji sees our comments and ideas in this forum. He will be like 'screw the guy who gave the idea of demonetization. I shall consult these guys for any future ideas'.

View attachment 56689

You never know...

Any idea if they transporting the gun or it is used mounted for firing....

I always imagined ZU-23 on something like Tata Xenon category vehicle, not such a large truck.

Recently tender issued by army to supply material to mount 90+(99 may be ,I forgot the number) nsv gun on 2.5 ton tata vehicle

 

[Haldilal]

What is the strategic impact of this on current situation?

Dont knew nigga, could be a alternate route to the DSDBO, but the real question is its really a all year round route, we need a alternative for the the DSDBO. But the Terrains is so difficult it's hard to find a real alternative to the DSDBO routes.

 

[A chauhan]

Realistically we should try to make 100+ Rafale as according to Previous Plan.
And then no more fighter jet import not even if we are offered F22,F 35, Su57.

Meanwhile we need refulers, AWACs, armed Drone.

I agree with that, be it any project whether Tejas MK1A or MK2 or AMCA, FOC variants and production in good numbers are 6 to 10 years away. We are in dire need of some front line aircrafts which can only be filled by Rafales.

If we move ahead atleast 36 more Rafales can land in India within 4 years.

 

[garg_bharat]

I agree with that, be it any project whether Tejas MK1A or MK2 or AMCA, FOC variants and production in good numbers are 6 to 10 years away. We are in dire need of some front line aircrafts which can only be filled by Rafales.

If we move ahead atleast 36 more Rafales can land in India within 4 years.

Methinks war is going to start sometime in 2021 and end sometime in 2022. Best hope will come from local production if it can be ramped up (or USA).

Leaning on Rafale may backfire.

 

[A chauhan]

Methinks war is going to start sometime in 2021 and end sometime in 2022. Best hope will come from local production if it can be ramped up (or USA).

Leaning on Rafale may backfire.

US will not do anything for us even if we purchase F21s or any American jet. At present China is the prime adversary of US, so regardless of what we purchase things will go the same direction.