India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[tarunraju]

In a India-China border war.. if the US wants to pitch in, these bombers can fly from Diego Garcia on a bombing raid to ladakh and back, atmost with one aerial refueling..

Yes, and the only place it can mid-air refuel is over Indian airspace. That should tell you why the Americans put these planes in BIOT. They want China to know that its bandwidth is very limited in Ladakh.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

This is good for India. B-2s at Diego Garcia send a message to China and Pakistan that the US is within striking distance, and it will guarantee peace in South Asia. It's the next best thing to putting these bombers in some place like Hindon (which would have sparked randi-rona by Indian opposition NAMards). I'm sure India was kept in the loop with this deployment.

NAMards .. lol.. that needs an entry in a dictionary..

 

[A chauhan]

Chinese Amphibious attack:-

 

[tarunraju]

NAMards .. lol.. that needs an entry in a dictionary..

Yes, NAMard is a contraction I invented. It's pronounced नामर्द .

Anyone who supports the idea of NAM in 2020 (a cheap excuse for dhanda-paani pacifism) is a NAMard.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Now that Independence day is over.. GOI should go ahead and ban Huawei / ZTE as quickly as possible. Lets make full use of the corona induced economic slump+chinese aggression, to castrate Indian pressure groups batting for chinese goods.. This period of reduced demand is the best period to de-addict the indian economy from Chinese goods, with minimal withdrawal symptoms.

 

[BangaliBabu]

WTF "British Indian Ocean Territory"... Am I the only one noticing it???

that place is called like that. After driving out the natives (just like the KPs), they're are ruling the roost there. That place is completely American, there are influential Americans staying there for decades and have permanent residency. Most of them served in their military at one time or the other in their lives. Nobody, not even the British, stay there permanently. It's an American (occupied) island in the Indian Ocean.

--

 

[Sanglamorre]

Yes, and the only place it can mid-air refuel is over Indian airspace. That should tell you why the Americans put these planes in BIOT. They want China to know that its bandwidth is very limited in Ladakh.

What if they refuel over Indonesian airspace? Or refuel over oceans and then land in Indonesia?

I'm not saying they aren't going to use Indian airspace, just saying maybe it's not the only place.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

In a India-China border war.. if the US wants to pitch in, these bombers can fly from Diego Garcia on a bombing raid to ladakh and back, atmost with one aerial refueling..

True. But in reality, these bombers can take off from Tennessee and still do the same job. Albeit with a much much longer turn around time. That’s how much range these bombers have. They conduct regular strikes in Iraq taking off from North America.

 

[tarunraju]

What if they refuel over Indonesian airspace? Or refuel over oceans and then land in Indonesia?

I'm not saying they aren't going to use Indian airspace, just saying maybe it's not the only place.

Australia's Keeling and Christmas islands (both with 9000' rwys), and Guam, are closer to Indonesia and the bottom tip of chicom nine-dash line than BIOT is.

Diego Garcia is US/UK's outpost dedicated to IOR and South Asia, and it's a way-station for US air asset movements from M-E to SEA. The SCMP article says that the B-2 is "deployed" there (not using it as a way-station).

Any exotic system being deployed in BIOT is sign of US readiness for action in IOR/South Asia.

 

[patriots]

I didn't get a proper thread so asking here....

What are the option a tank has....when it is fired by a helicopter with atgm....
And how many atgms an aps can destroy at a time.....

What s the option the chineese type 99 tanks has aganaist a helifire from Apache
What's the option type 15 light tank has agnaist the same...

Again what are options our t72 ,t90 and bmp2 has agnaist their Z10 and other helicopters.....
I have asked these questions as J believe these narrow valleys are not suitable for tank battle,may not see a large number of tanks
maneuvering.....
So helicopter lunched atgms.....or man portable atgm s play a big role....

Helicopter lunched atgms has minimum 7km range,but tank s machine can fire upto 2 km. ...

The tank crew can call for their air support....


Again will we see..... integrated battle groui here ...if war happen s

 

[Sanglamorre]

Australia's Keeling and Christmas islands (both with 9000' rwys), and Guam, are closer to Indonesia and the bottom tip of chicom nine-dash line than BIOT is.

Diego Garcia is US/UK's outpost dedicated to IOR and South Asia.

Okay, so what exactly are they planning to hit after taking off from Diego Garcia?

If it's South Western China then those bears you mentioned are better, if it's Tibet then they have to traverse large tracts over India, in which case they have to inform GoI so, isn't there risk of exposing their radar signatures and what not?

My point is, if it's the latter, does it mean India is firmly in US camp now?

 

[Bhadra]

Now that Independence day is over.. GOI should go ahead and ban Huawei / ZTE as quickly as possible. Lets make full use of the corona induced economic slump+chinese aggression, to castrate Indian pressure groups batting for chinese goods.. This period of reduced demand is the best period to de-addict the indian economy from Chinese goods, with minimal withdrawal symptoms.

Do you ever realize how deeply Modi's vision and plans of a new India is closely linked to telecommunications, moble technologies and internet reach? All effective reform programs such as Jandhan, the spread of banking down to common man, digital money in place of cash, accounting and control of public money, the spread of banking services, payment of subsidies, elimination of middle man, Adhar and nation identification, NRC, CAA, land records, crime control, Man ki aat, the impetus to nationalism, SMEs, employment generation schemes, public grievances, education and classes in Corona times 0 al and every thinh is telecommunication and moile technology based.

The national health programme and individual health card scheme would be digital and run on the internet. Control over corruption, eliminating hold of bureaucracy are all based on internet technologies. The recent announcements regarding ofc is a step in that direction.

5G and other mobile technology infrastructures and service providers in the country incl TATA Telecom. except for maybe Jio are all comprador third-class baniyas companies lacking capacities and technologies. India needs to spend very huge amount in that field and only foreign players will do that.
Chinese Huwai / ZTE is a major international player. By banning them do you want the field to be surrender to western exploiters and imperialists? India may not grant them contracts but let them be in the field for the sake of competition and reducing contract prices.

Besides, in international diplomacy, no one shuts the door on others completely.. Some carrots are left to dangle ....

 

[tarunraju]

Okay, so what exactly are they planning to hit after taking off from Diego Garcia?

If it's South Western China then those bears you mentioned are better, if it's Tibet then they have to traverse large tracts over India, in which case they have to inform GoI so, isn't there risk of exposing their radar signatures and what not?

My point is, if it's the latter, does it mean India is firmly in US camp now?

They plan to hit Tibet on India's invitation, if Pakistan turns the India-China conflict into a 2-front war for India.

The US is a guarantor that Pakistan will sit this one out.

FAQ - What's in it for the US: A 2-front war gives India justification to breach the LOC, and unshackle from Clinton's "the borders in South Asia will no longer be drawn in blood" promise. Under the Clinton doctrine, India can only respond to Pakistani provocation, and strictly proportionate to the scale of the provocation. It also prevents Pakistan from doing another Kargil. Joining a Chinese military campaign against India will void Pakistan of the US assurance that India will de facto remain on its side of the LOC, since the provocation against India will be far too great to just fight to defend the sanctity of the LOC. India would need the freedom to levy territorial costs on Pakistan.

That is the American calculus in South Asia.

 

[hit&run]

Okay, so what exactly are they planning to hit after taking off from Diego Garcia?

If it's South Western China then those bears you mentioned are better, if it's Tibet then they have to traverse large tracts over India, in which case they have to inform GoI so, isn't there risk of exposing their radar signatures and what not?

My point is, if it's the latter, does it mean India is firmly in US camp now?

I won't be surprise if they refule in Agra.

 

[tarunraju]

My point is, if it's the latter, does it mean India is firmly in US camp now?

No, the US is in the "prevent India from having the justification to take PoK and link up with Russia" camp.

To that end, the US efforts are concentrated toward preventing Pakistan from entering the India-China fight (nothing beyond intel sharing), while simultaneously giving India valuable intel on China.

 

[Knowitall]

They plan to hit Tibet on India's invitation, if Pakistan turns the India-China conflict into a 2-front war for India.

The US is a guarantor that Pakistan will sit this one out.

FAQ - What's in it for the US: A 2-front war gives India justification to breach the LOC, and unshackle from Clinton's "the borders in South Asia will no longer be drawn in blood" promise. Under the Clinton doctrine, India can only respond to Pakistani provocation, and strictly proportionate to the scale of the provocation. It also prevents Pakistan from doing another Kargil. Joining a Chinese military campaign against India will void Pakistan of the US assurance that India will de facto remain on its side of the LOC, since the provocation against India will be far too great to just fight to defend the sanctity of the LOC. India would need the freedom to levy territorial costs on Pakistan.

That is the American calculus in South Asia.

Trio Of B-2 Stealth Bombers Deploy To The Remote Island Outpost Of Diego Garcia

Forward deploying the B-2s to the Indian Ocean puts them well within reach of hotspots in the Middle East and Asia.

www.thedrive.com

A great article about this new deployment.

US has finally woken up to the Chinese threat this deployment is a part of strategic unpredictability by the US airforce.

Instead of deploying bombers in pre-planned and pre-decided areas like they used to before the us is now deploying bombers and other fighters all around the globe.

The most recent example should be the recent deployment of b-2 bombers to Iceland and before that the wake island.

They are deploying them in low supply far out regions to improve readiness and reaction time.

Also Diego Garcia is a perfect spot for the deployment of such high profile bombers.

These bombers can respond to threats both in the ME and Pacific from here.

Whereas if they are deployed in the US base in UAE which is much closer to ME these bombers can't respond to threats in the Pacific and will fall under the range of Iran's ballistic missile.

 

[fire starter]

Do you ever realize how deeply Modi's vision and plans of a new India is closely linked to telecommunications, moble technologies and internet reach? All effective reform programs such as Jandhan, the spread of banking down to common man, digital money in place of cash, accounting and control of public money, the spread of banking services, payment of subsidies, elimination of middle man, Adhar and nation identification, NRC, CAA, land records, crime control, Man ki aat, the impetus to nationalism, SMEs, employment generation schemes, public grievances, education and classes in Corona times 0 al and every thinh is telecommunication and moile technology based.

The national health programme and individual health card scheme would be digital and run on the internet. Control over corruption, eliminating hold of bureaucracy are all based on internet technologies. The recent announcements regarding ofc is a step in that direction.

5G and other mobile technology infrastructures and service providers in the country incl TATA Telecom. except for maybe Jio are all comprador third-class baniyas companies lacking capacities and technologies. India needs to spend very huge amount in that field and only foreign players will do that.
Chinese Huwai / ZTE is a major international player. By banning them do you want the field to be surrender to western exploiters and imperialists? India may not grant them contracts but let them be in the field for the sake of competition and reducing contract prices.

Besides, in international diplomacy, no one shuts the door on others completely.. Some carrots are left to dangle ....

we can develop and have developed our own 5G no need to start your as usual rant without knowing any thing.

 

[garg_bharat]

Brahmcharyen tapasa raja rashtyam vi rakshati| Acharyo brahmcharyen brahmcharinam-ichhate|| Atharva 3-5-17|

King who adopts 'brahmcharya' is adept in his work and protects nation. He promotes education and loves teachers engaged in giving education to public.

 

[garg_bharat]

No, the US is in the "prevent India from having the justification to take PoK and link up with Russia" camp.

To that end, the US efforts are concentrated toward preventing Pakistan from entering the India-China fight (nothing beyond intel sharing), while simultaneously giving India valuable intel on China.

Honestly I see nothing good in link up to central Asia at this time. However given the conditions in Pakistan and acute conflict of interest (Pakistan being a Muslim theocracy practically while China being a God-denying communist), India may get opportunity to reclaim some territory.

 

[Bhadra]

I didn't get a proper thread so asking here....

What are the option a tank has....when it is fired by a helicopter with atgm....
And how many atgms an aps can destroy at a time.....

What s the option the chineese type 99 tanks has aganaist a helifire from Apache
What's the option type 15 light tank has agnaist the same...

Again what are options our t72 ,t90 and bmp2 has agnaist their Z10 and other helicopters.....
I have asked these questions as J believe these narrow valleys are not suitable for tank battle,may not see a large number of tanks
maneuvering.....
So helicopter lunched atgms.....or man portable atgm s play a big role....

Helicopter lunched atgms has minimum 7km range,but tank s machine can fire upto 2 km. ...

The tank crew can call for their air support....


Again will we see..... integrated battle groui here ...if war happen s

You have asked questions which are very basic but involve the complete gamut of following military Science Subjects:

Funadamentals and principles of war.
Offensive operations and stages of attacks
Operations of War - Defense, and stages of Defence
Maneuver warfare
Tank Technology
ATGM technology..
Mountain Warfare

Hence it is not easy to answer your questions in a SM forum even in short form.
Suffice it say that all the above knowledge then will have to be applied to the geography of Ladakh, in military lingo called terrain.

The history of the tank is the history of the battle between missiles and tanks. Tanks in moble warfare are defeated by maneuvers only of which helicopters are a very significant component. Helicopter missiles are thus a very significant part of maneuver or anti-tank warfare.

Any maneuver war is never bereft of attrition as an integral objective. So helicopter launched ATGM and MPATGM form part of attrition designs - discern, delay, channelize and destroy designs of an operation. I will start killing enemy tanks when those are ten km away from defenses and keep killing tanks till tanks reach 200m away from the defenses. This is done by the deployment of a mix of the helicopter, vehicle and man launched missiles with varying ranges depending on ability to detect and acquire targets and control the misile.

The best method to attack a tank still remains to be a mix of shot and shell. That is a mixture of guns and missiles.

T- 90 is by far much superior to any Chinese tanks. T-72 upgrades are also superior. T-15 stands no chance whatsoever in front of both.

Chinese and Indians will be forced to use tanks in penetration battles which are slow, difficult and full of attritions, Hence the importance of good MPATGM increases exponentially. Spikes may fill the void since DRDO has renegaded,

Helicopter launched missiles, have an advantage of heavy warhead good guidance, control and top attack uses of missiles while the helicopters can remain at standoff ranges of ground fires.

Indian capabilities in missiles however pathetically abysmal primarily due to lack of helicopter and MPATGM launched missiles. Though Chinese tanks stand no chance against apache hellfire.

Tank survivability depends of all the three factors od protection, firepower, and mobility. besides tanks use active modes such as ECM and passive modes as smoke dust, IR suppression, movements, and ground covers to evade missile attacks.