India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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Jaymax61

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Modi came to power in 2014. Chinese were snipping at our heels then too. Prior to that time he was tweeting and hinting the problem was not with the Jawans at the LAC it was in Delhi.

Now he is in Delhi. He came in knowing the Chinese were uptown their tricks. 6 years later, we are still in doubts while the Chinks steal our land. Modi is staying quiet on the issue while the Chinks keep on building up their presence.
 

AmitG

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Free advice is plenty in India.
What matters is perception of military and intelligence agencies which give advice to the government.

Chinese are digging in no doubt. But this has happened before. I see a lot of similarities with world war 1. Is Indian army digging in too?

I think we are in for a long bloody war. And this war has all the potential of a general war with possible attacks deep inside India. There will be long dark times.

The government is doing what it can do. Our army maybe strong but overall defence structure is weak. A lot is needed to make overall defence structure strong. This is why it is better to find allies and take collective action.
No the govt is nothing doing what it can do. What it can do is that it can give the Chinese a bloody nose in Ladakh. If history has shown one thing is that if the Chinese suffer reverses they are much more willing to negotiate. The Galwan incident though spontaneous should have been followed up with proactive action in other sectors.

Giving the excuse that we were not ready Isn’t going to cut it. There will always be some shortcomings. Our army as a fighting force has the advantage as they are battle hardened . We could have wrested the initiative if the go ahead had been given.

Right now it seems that Modi and his supporters are more interested in protecting his image than in taking on the Chinese. Have said this before, support him or not, win or loose , the whole country will support the PM if he decides to take decisive action. But unfortunately that seems a far cry.

Right now the Chinese have us in a bind. Having achieved their objectives they know they can sit back because they know we won’t retaliate. We on the other hand have to pour time and resources to maintain a huge forward deployment.
 

Sanglamorre

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Aah well, then any country that uses biological warfare, clandestine or otherwise, which precedes military action can then be rest assured that our leaders will do nothing, concerned as they are for “welfare of the people”......

You don’t get to choose when your enemy throws down the gauntlet. You either pick up that gauntlet or not. Everyone who doesn’t, makes excuses, and they are always damn good reasons not to pick a fight. Unfortunately, this will be like a washing machine cycle. We will soon get a rinse and repeat before we are hung out to dry.
Yeah, aren't there reports of Pakis and Chinese together making bio weapons?

So, looks like we'll be forever have to not take military actions because they keep springing diseases.

Imagine getting hit with bio warfare and waiting to get hit with bio warfare again. There's no surety they won't be throwing new varieties at us.

The black death, new pneumonia etc are ready to hit us when we come out of that mythical time where we have defeated China Flu.
 

Sanglamorre

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Modi came to power in 2014. Chinese were snipping at our heels then too. Prior to that time he was tweeting and hinting the problem was not with the Jawans at the LAC it was in Delhi.

Now he is in Delhi. He came in knowing the Chinese were uptown their tricks. 6 years later, we are still in doubts while the Chinks steal our land. Modi is staying quiet on the issue while the Chinks keep on building up their presence.
He already said his piece about this: koi nahi ghussa. There's no intent to retaliate or take back. Defend? Maybe. I've started to doubt whether we'd get even this if Shukla didn't raise a stink or journalists leaked Galwan clash. Govt was always brushing it under the carpet.
I think so. More tonnes of tea and biscuits have been spent to host and be subservient to Chinese than bullets fired at them.

Simply disgraceful at this point. They intruded and you are rolling over to serve them tea.
 

daya

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I think the real problem with india cld be a lack of strong deep state . In usa they have quiet a strong deep state.. In china/pakistan they have permanent entities they dnt need deep state...
defence/strategic issues requires decades of planing and execution.. We cnt expect political class to be visionary enough to think about scenario/ power equation 20yrs ahead whn they have to face election every 5 yrs in center and in between in many states..
The real problem is our kameene citizen. They have their vested interests on top of everything. Nation is no where in their list when their interests are there. They can sell everything for their sake. No moral, no character, no civic sense. Apna ek rupaye ka fayda ho to desh ka sau rupaye ka nuksaan kar denge...
 

daya

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Three ordinances which are proposed by Modi government regarding agriculture produce and abolishing market commitees made modi govt anti farmer they want farmers sell their produce to themselves also abolishing aadhtis ( commission agents ) will have a catastrophic effect on farmers already in worst conditions .I am also disappointed by this move of modi govt .
How the removal of AADHATIS will have a catastrophic effect on farmers, please explain... Removal of middleman will make farmers poorer!!!!
 

prasadr14

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Modi has no intention to act - Well, if that is the case, why is the official stance of current govt has consistently been to restore Status quo? What does one think the govt means by this Status Quo?

GOI will act at the place and time of it's choosing,
not to appease fools who wants rambos crossing the lake and start slitting some Chinkie throats..
 

Sanglamorre

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Yeah we should trust Shukla now who had given entire Galwan valley to China in 2013.

Next quote Hafeez Saeed to prove that Indian govt isn't tough on terrorism.

View attachment 55227
And who raised the stink about intrusion first? Was it Shukla or nah? Obviously his claims are exaggerated and political, but he was the first to raise this, and his loud claims was the one that whipped the GOI, despite them being partially false.

So yes, the battle is between Shukla "we gave away hundreds of Kms" Vs Modiji "koi Nahi ghussa". Two different shades of lies.
 

Sehwag213

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And who raised the stink about intrusion first? Was it Shukla or nah? Obviously his claims are exaggerated and political, but he was the first to raise this, and his loud claims was the one that whipped the GOI, despite them being partially false.

So yes, the battle is between Shukla "we gave away hundreds of Kms" Vs Modiji "koi Nahi ghussa". Two different shades of lies.
Or maybe Chinese would have gone back quietly had Shukla not raised a stink ( I know very less chance )

But now that everything is in media, they simply don't want to go back because it would be DOKLAM 2.0 for them.

Who knows if all of these things hadn't come to media, things would have been resolved quietly.
But now China simply can't go without getting anything in return because it would be repeat of DOKLAM for them.
 

Bhadra

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You all are welcome to state your cases with regard to India/s military capability as an outcome of comprehensive national power.

The notion of military capability as the output level of national power is premised on the understanding that a country’s military organizations receive national resources and transform them into specific warfighting capabilities.

The warfighting capabilities thus generated are effective to the degree that they enable a country’s leaders to impose their will on enemies, existing and potential.

Thus, the larger logical framework developed for examining national power can be applied writ small to examining how national military establishments generate effective military forces.

Put simply, the question is, “What resources does the military get, and how successfully can they be transformed into effective military power?” Military effectiveness thus becomes the outcome of the resources provided to the military and its capability to transform these resources into effective warfighting capability.

A country may provide its military with generous budgets and large cadres of manpower, but if the military’s doctrine is misguided, the training ineffective, the leadership unschooled, or the organization inappropriate, military capability will suffer.

* India has No comprehensive National Security directive. All are blinds and fighting with a well-articulated aim. Defence Secretary of India who assumes a weight of a thousand tons under Indian bureaucratic ego and status-driven false superstructure by claiming he is responsible for "Defence of India" has so far failed to outline national aim and interests over 74 years.

* Our National Security Setup and its leaders are unschooled and untrained. Anyone can have a contrarian view on that but I feel our MEA bosses, IAS bosses, IPS Cops , the Intelligence community and military leadership are neither formally trained nor schooled to handle the national security apparatus in a co-joint and single-minded pursuits. Instead, national security apparatus has become a platform to pursue intergroup and inter-organizational rivalries such as IB Vs R&AW, Army Vs Navy Vs IAF, Vs CAPF and IPS lobby Vs MEA Vs IAS. They all meet to jockey for more money and more status rather than to manage national security.

* The National security apparatus under NSA is inadequate and inappropriate. So far it has suffered from typical Indian malice where MEA and IPS loobies would not like Brijesh Mishra to succeed and MEA , IAS lobby would like see Ajit Doval to fail.. There is no place for defence force there in the country as large as India and having as vast and varied military challenges .as no one else in the world.

No amount of money can ameliorate this critical deficiency.. where a COAS is called Galli Ka Gunda for internal political scores.. where Rajiv Gandhi threatens a former COAS Rodrigues by stating that he does know even ten per cent what constitutes security..

Under such National Security culture who will stick his neck out... Nationa Security is thus determined by Lutiyan's Delhi where people like Dik shit or Pramod Tiwari determine India's military response to China..

Money is essential but not everything.. the vital or core of India's security structure is rotten..Subramaniam or Naresh Chandra are in dust bin.. it is business as usual.. Only Indian Armed forces have been sent to have some loose motions..
 

Sanglamorre

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Modi has no intention to act - Well, if that is the case, why is the official stance of current govt has consistently been to restore Status quo? What does one think the govt means by this Status Quo?

GOI will act at the place and time of it's choosing,
not to appease fools who wants rambos crossing the lake and start slitting some Chinkie throats..
The official stance of Congress govt has also been that PoK is ours, Aksai is ours (on paper. It was Congress who passed those in parliament back in the day). Does that mean they were going to act on it? No.

Position of govt has always been to restore status quo: of no tensions at LAC. Not status quo ante, which is position before April. There's a difference.

Time and place of its choosing pfft. That's the nature of fait accompli. You go and do stuff, and you gain control by doing so. Not by vowing revenge unspecified time later. Everything the GOI is doing points to more tea buiscuit serving, not taking hard actions.

Even Chinkies moved weapons and armour (more than India) towards Taiwan. They give more "roars like a lion" about taking over Taiwan. You and I both know they aren't going to actually invade Taiwan. So, no. All the deployment by GoI at LAC doesn't convince me of eventual action.

There's waiting for time, and there's absolving China by saying "koi Nahi ghussa". There's breakdown of diplomatic relations, and there's constant chai biscuit. There's strong statements, and there's MEA of India statements. Everything screams towards GoI accepting status quo, and not doing anything about it being some economic measures.

So yes, Modi has no intention to act militarily.
 

Sanglamorre

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Or maybe Chinese would have gone back quietly had Shukla not raised a stink ( I know very less chance )

But now that everything is in media, they simply don't want to go back because it would be DOKLAM 2.0 for them.

Who knows if all of these things hadn't come to media, things would have been resolved quietly.
But now China simply can't go without getting anything in return because it would be repeat of DOKLAM for them.
Why would Chinese go back after building so much infra? I don't think so they'd have left. Their main aim is DS-DBO road so them going back wouldn't be helpful to their aim
 

prasadr14

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The official stance of Congress govt has also been that PoK is ours, Aksai is ours (on paper. It was Congress who passed those in parliament back in the day). Does that mean they were going to act on it? No.

Position of govt has always been to restore status quo: of no tensions at LAC. Not status quo ante, which is position before April. There's a difference.

Time and place of its choosing pfft. That's the nature of fait accompli. You go and do stuff, and you gain control by doing so. Not by vowing revenge unspecified time later. Everything the GOI is doing points to more tea buiscuit serving, not taking hard actions.

Even Chinkies moved weapons and armour (more than India) towards Taiwan. They give more "roars like a lion" about taking over Taiwan. You and I both know they aren't going to actually invade Taiwan. So, no. All the deployment by GoI at LAC doesn't convince me of eventual action.

There's waiting for time, and there's absolving China by saying "koi Nahi ghussa". There's breakdown of diplomatic relations, and there's constant chai biscuit. There's strong statements, and there's MEA of India statements. Everything screams towards GoI accepting status quo, and not doing anything about it being some economic measures.

So yes, Modi has no intention to act militarily.
POK & Aksai stance is different to a Kargil.
The current one is similar to Kargil & GOI is responding in the same vein.

Military presence has been increased, assets are being moved, diplomatic offensive on, economic measures to hurt are being taken -
If GOI was keen to ignore this, none of the above steps would make sense,
You don't cover up by telling Indian people that we want China to go back...and keeping focus on territories China has occupied.
 

garg_bharat

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Modi came to power in 2014. Chinese were snipping at our heels then too. Prior to that time he was tweeting and hinting the problem was not with the Jawans at the LAC it was in Delhi.

Now he is in Delhi. He came in knowing the Chinese were uptown their tricks. 6 years later, we are still in doubts while the Chinks steal our land. Modi is staying quiet on the issue while the Chinks keep on building up their presence.
Nobody is in doubt.
There was no doubt at any point in time.

Biological warfare on population is different from biological warfare on soldiers.

No country was prepared for bio warfare on general population.

What is response to bio warfare? Has anybody asked this question? Are you ready to nuke Chinese cities?

Conventional war cannot be a response to bio warfare.
 

Sehwag213

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Why would Chinese go back after building so much infra? I don't think so they'd have left. Their main aim is DS-DBO road so them going back wouldn't be helpful to their aim
Most of these infra have been created in last 1 month. As I said now that everything is in media, they simply can't go back without getting anything in return because this would be serious loss of face for them.


And if your second point holds true of them wanting to capture DSDBO road, then war is anyway happening whether Modi wants it or not.
 
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