India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Anandhu Krishna]

Also, Hellfire posted this, I hope i am not breaking any rules by posting it here.

Lot of them are pakis with Indian names cursing nepalis afghans etc. I've seen accounts on ytb. These accounts also target south Indians and Muslims.

 

[Bhadra]

So much of frustration in the forum...

You want to fight China then first Fight Chinese agents and internal players..they are inside our country and one does not have to import Rafale to bomb them..
China wants Modi to fight but Modi comes from the land of Ranchoda who had to postpone a battle with Jarasandh for the welfare od his people..

A country which has 55000 COVID cases every day should be made to undergo a collective undertaking of the scale of War and raise daily COVID cases to more than one Lakh.... ??

All Chinese agents want Modi to enter into Mortal Combat...
Are you one of them.. ???

 

[ashdoc]

So much of frustration in the forum...

You want to fight China then first Fight Chinese agents and internal players..they are inside our country and one does not have to import Rafale to bomb them..
China wants Modi to fight but Modi comes from the land of Ranchoda who had to postpone a battle with Jarasandh for the welfare od his people..

A country which has 55000 COVID cases every day should be made to undergo a collective undertaking of the scale of War and raise daily COVID cases to more than one Lakh.... ??

All Chinese agents want Modi to enter into Mortal Combat...
Are you one of them.. ???

But modi could have at least increased defence budget as percentage of GDP instead of keeping it low . Even after balakot his defence budget was below par as far as money allotted for defence was concerned. Such a PM does not have the right to claim to be a big defender of national security.

No Big Bang modernization for the armed forces in the defence budget | India News - Times of India

India News: With yet another paltry hike in the defence budget, the modernization of the 1.5-miilion strong armed forces will continue in its slow and haphazard m

www.google.com

 

[doreamon]

But modi could have at least increased defence budget as percentage of GDP instead of keeping it low . Even after balakot his defence budget was below par as far as money allotted for defence was concerned. Such a PM does not have the right to claim to be a big defender of national security.

No Big Bang modernization for the armed forces in the defence budget | India News - Times of India

India News: With yet another paltry hike in the defence budget, the modernization of the 1.5-miilion strong armed forces will continue in its slow and haphazard m

www.google.com

I think the real problem with india cld be a lack of strong deep state . In usa they have quiet a strong deep state.. In china/pakistan they have permanent entities they dnt need deep state...
defence/strategic issues requires decades of planing and execution.. We cnt expect political class to be visionary enough to think about scenario/ power equation 20yrs ahead whn they have to face election every 5 yrs in center and in between in many states..

 

[ezsasa]

But modi could have at least increased defence budget as percentage of GDP instead of keeping it low . Even after balakot his defence budget was below par as far as money allotted for defence was concerned. Such a PM does not have the right to claim to be a big defender of national security.

No Big Bang modernization for the armed forces in the defence budget | India News - Times of India

India News: With yet another paltry hike in the defence budget, the modernization of the 1.5-miilion strong armed forces will continue in its slow and haphazard m

www.google.com

In the first place, this metric of measuring any sort of govt spending compared to GDP is misleading, given the fact that only 1% of population pay taxes in india. this narrative is being copied from US's problems with NATO spending.

even with the supposedly low amount, it does seem that pace of acquisitions has not dropped. more inductions & purchases & R&D have been done than ever before.

even if defence spending were to be increased, which govt scheme should the amount be reduced from?
village electrification/ rural sanitation / MNREGA/ agricultural subsidy/ Govt employee salaries/ Infrastructure etc etc ?

Expenditures from Union budget 2020

 

[LDev]

We may not have these SRBMs equal to China.. But few Prithvi missiles launched from Assam or even Arunachal can strike deep into Chinese Yunan & Sichuan provinces. We can cause panic among Chinese public as well provided we plan accordingly.

Prithvi is short ranged, 350km-500 km. Even Chendu is 1000 km from Dibrugarh. The other important targets in China from the 3 Gorges Dam (1500 km), Guandong Province (2000 km), the port of Shanghai (2800 km) are much further away. Agni 2 and Agni 3 with conventional warheads should be produced in bulk, 200-300 of these missiles at a cost of about Rs 50 crore per missile. Right now there are only a handful of them in inventory because they are restricted to the nuke delivery role, but they will be a great conventional deterrent, As I said, even 300 of a combination of Agni 2s and 3s will cost about Rs 15,000 crores i.e. 2 billion US dollars, a very cost effective solution.

 

[Synergy]

In the first place, this metric of measuring any sort of govt spending compared to GDP is misleading, given the fact that only 1% of population pay taxes in india. this narrative is being copied from US's problems with NATO spending.

even with the supposedly low amount, it does seem that pace of acquisitions has not dropped. more inductions & purchases & R&D have been done than ever before.

even if defence spending were to be increased, which govt scheme should the amount be reduced from?
village electrification/ rural sanitation / MNREGA/ agricultural subsidy/ Govt employee salaries/ Infrastructure etc etc ?

Expenditures from Union budget 2020

View attachment 55211

agreed.
but

could have used at least +0.5% fiscal deficit. inflation was way under control. especially in 2016/17/18.

but I think money is not the only problem. our main problem is procurement policies and tendering process that this govt is trying hard to sort out.

 

[johnq]

So much of frustration in the forum...

You want to fight China then first Fight Chinese agents and internal players..they are inside our country and one does not have to import Rafale to bomb them..
China wants Modi to fight but Modi comes from the land of Ranchoda who had to postpone a battle with Jarasandh for the welfare od his people..

A country which has 55000 COVID cases every day should be made to undergo a collective undertaking of the scale of War and raise daily COVID cases to more than one Lakh.... ??

All Chinese agents want Modi to enter into Mortal Combat...
Are you one of them.. ???

Well said. War is not just soldiers at the borders standing with guns, but massive supply lines and production. A full fledged war right now would make the Covid situation much worse, and I think that is what the Chinese want. But I give the Indian army a lot of credit for even holding the line under such circumstances.

 

[ezsasa]

agreed.
but

could have used at least +0.5% fiscal deficit. inflation was way under control. especially in 2016/17/18.

but I think money is not the only problem. our main problem is procurement policies and tendering process that this govt is trying hard to sort out.

Out of 30 lakh crore union budget in 2020, 535870 crores is market borrowings i.e govt debt.
frankly, instead of talking of defence spending we should all be talking about increasing revenue streams for GoI i.e Make in India. it all boils down to less than ideal govt revenues for a country our size.

economy rise = tax revenue rise = defence spending rise.

 

[Synergy]

Out of 30 lakh crore union budget in 2020, 535870 crores is market borrowings i.e govt debt.
frankly, instead of talking of defence spending we should all be talking about increasing revenue streams for GoI i.e Make in India. it all boils down to less than ideal govt revenues for a country our size.

economy rise = tax revenue rise = defence spending rise.


View attachment 55213

again agreed.

but Sir still our public debt to gdp ratio is lower than many developed countries and it's stable, I mean remaining in the same level.
no way to contradict, we have to up revenue.

economic front needs many reforms, some bitter ones also.

I'm not saying we are not doing anything. I was just pointing to, something we could have done better. when we had both inflation and fiscal deficit under control, if we'd allowed just 0.5% more deficit that'd give us $10/12 B (per year) that we could use only on def, keeping in mind present threat perception.

after Doklam standoff, we could have easily allowed 1% more and in 2018-19 another .5%. that'd give us enough amount (about $37B+) for present requirements.

 

[garg_bharat]

Because Congress had hundreds of positives to bail it out in 2009, none of its scams came to light, so 26/11 can't be seen in a vacuum. On the other hand, Modi was hanging onto "national security" and military hawkishness as his last thread. He already lost on the economic front, and thanks to the COVID-19 and migrant labourer crisis, he is embattled in public-good image. At least military hawkishness and national security would have sold.

Right now, India stares at losing more territory than it ever did since 1962, coupled with Chinese maintaining a predatory stance at the border. This stance won't change unless it's given a bloody nose.

The objective of a war isn't always to win. Sometimes you fight knowing you might lose, but making the enemy suffer hard for a costly victory is enough to send a strategic message forcing him to change his stance.

Free advice is plenty in India.
What matters is perception of military and intelligence agencies which give advice to the government.

Chinese are digging in no doubt. But this has happened before. I see a lot of similarities with world war 1. Is Indian army digging in too?

I think we are in for a long bloody war. And this war has all the potential of a general war with possible attacks deep inside India. There will be long dark times.

The government is doing what it can do. Our army maybe strong but overall defence structure is weak. A lot is needed to make overall defence structure strong. This is why it is better to find allies and take collective action.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

They've around 2100+ fighter aircrafts + bombers their entire Eastern sea board is covered along with a huge Naval fleet. They may face trouble around India front but they've got their slaves Pakis as some sort of insurance.

But Taiwan has a much stronger Airforce than Pakistan they have 600+ aircrafts which Includes 115 up to date F16s , 46 mirage 2000 , and Their own indigenous fighter aircraft FCK-1C 103 in number

 

[garg_bharat]

But Taiwan has a much stronger Airforce than Pakistan they have 600+ aircrafts which Includes 115 up to date F16s , 46 mirage 2000 , and Their own indigenous fighter aircraft FCK-1C 103 in number

No country bordering or near China - whether India or Taiwan can take on China alone at this point.

Japan and Taiwan are under US shield. South Korea has issue with North but not necessarily China. Me thinks South Korea is basically useless against China.

If China is engaged in fight against Taiwan, that is the time for India to move too; as China will not be able to devote all is resources to the Western front. However India MUST prepare for a bloody fight and be prepared to recruit new soldiers and purchase new equipment. This "border war" thing clouds too much of India's judgement. There is no such thing as a border war. Chinese simply hate Indians; it is the general hate that reflects in their attitude. Their fight is with whole of India. Border posture is just a symptom rather than the cause.

India must stop making deals with an enemy state and prepare all out for war.

 

[utubekhiladi]

NEW DELHI: With Chinese troops showing no signs of pulling back from Pangong Tso and Depsang Plains in eastern Ladakh, while also continuing to increase deployments along the Line of Actual Control right till Arunachal Pradesh, the next round of corps commander-level talks has been deferred to next week.
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round of talks between 14 Corps commander Lt General Harinder Singh and South Xinjiang Military District chief Major General Liu Lin on July 30, as was initially proposed, in view of China’s “continuing intransigence” on the ground.
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After the high-powered China Study Group held a meeting this week to fine-tune India’s strategy, officials say there could be two reasons for the People’s Liberation Army to drag its feet on troop disengagement at Pangong Tso and Patrolling Point (PP)-17A at Gogra. The PLA, for one, could still be contemplating whether it should implement the disengagement proposals it had agreed to during the fourth round of military talks on July 14. “It does take time to finalise what is acceptable and what is not, along with the requisite political approvals,” said a senior official.
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“But the other reason could be that the PLA is simply biding time to present us with a fait accompli once winter sets in. Either way, we are prepared for the long haul. Restoration of status quo ante is not on the cards as of now,” he added.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

No country bordering or near China - whether India or Taiwan can take on China alone at this point.

Japan and Taiwan are under US shield. South Korea has issue with North but not necessarily China. Me thinks South Korea is basically useless against China.

If China is engaged in fight against Taiwan, that is the time for India to move too; as China will not be able to devote all is resources to the Western front. However India MUST prepare for a bloody fight and be prepared to recruit new soldiers and purchase new equipment. This "border war" thing clouds too much of India's judgement. There is no such thing as a border war. Chinese simply hate Indians; it is the general hate that reflects in their attitude. Their fight is with whole of India. Border posture is just a symptom rather than the cause.

India must stop making deals with an enemy state and prepare all out for war.

What I am saying that Taiwan is a much smaller country than China (around 30 million population) but there airforce is huge and high tech not a junk like Pakistan Airforce So in case of war China will be facing multi front war that too with a rich country like Taiwan in comparison to our two front in which one front (Pakistan) is handicap

 

[Sanglamorre]

Restoration of status quo ante is not on the cards as of now,” he added.

This alarms me a lot.

 

[Indrajit]

Out of 30 lakh crore union budget in 2020, 535870 crores is market borrowings i.e govt debt.
frankly, instead of talking of defence spending we should all be talking about increasing revenue streams for GoI i.e Make in India. it all boils down to less than ideal govt revenues for a country our size.

economy rise = tax revenue rise = defence spending rise.


View attachment 55213

By this metric, anyone then criticising Nehru is being cussed. If anything, the situation was infinitely worse during the first decade and a half after independence and the Chinese had not yet played their hand. No such excuse exists now, the Chinese showed Modi that on his very first invitation of Xi. The argument between bread and butter versus military expenditure is as old as time itself. In 6 years, we have only gone progressively worse on capex available for large purchases in the military budget. It’s not going to get better anytime soon and the Chinese are under no obligation to wait till we are ready.

Everyone gets that the economic situation is not ideal but then neither is the geopolitical reality. We have to do what we have to do.

 

[Sehwag213]

By this metric, anyone then criticising Nehru is being cussed. If anything, the situation was infinitely worse during the first decade and a half after independence and the Chinese had not yet played their hand. No such excuse exists now, the Chinese showed Modi that on his very first invitation of Xi. The argument between bread and butter versus military expenditure is as old as time itself. In 6 years, we have only gone progressively worse on capex available for large purchases in the military budget. It’s not going to get better anytime soon and the Chinese are under no obligation to wait till we are ready.

Everyone gets that the economic situation is not ideal but then neither is the geopolitical reality. We have to do what we have to do.

Chinese hadn't played their cards ?
G219 was built in 1957 through Aksai Chin which was Indian territory then.
That means he had 5 years to prepare for war.
Nehru simply didn't trust army because of the fear of coup. He had no idea about Ladakh region .
He sent troops there in PT shoes unacclamatised to fight the war. And as a result , many troops suffered from altitude sickness.

 

[Indrajit]

So much of frustration in the forum...

A country which has 55000 COVID cases every day should be made to undergo a collective undertaking of the scale of War and raise daily COVID cases to more than one Lakh.... ??

Aah well, then any country that uses biological warfare, clandestine or otherwise, which precedes military action can then be rest assured that our leaders will do nothing, concerned as they are for “welfare of the people”......

You don’t get to choose when your enemy throws down the gauntlet. You either pick up that gauntlet or not. Everyone who doesn’t, makes excuses, and they are always damn good reasons not to pick a fight. Unfortunately, this will be like a washing machine cycle. We will soon get a rinse and repeat before we are hung out to dry.

 

[Indrajit]

Chinese hadn't played their cards ?
G219 was built in 1957 through Aksai Chin which was Indian territory then.
That means he had 5 years to prepare for war.
Nehru simply didn't trust army because of the fear of coup. He had no idea about Ladakh region .
He sent troops there in PT shoes unacclamatised to fight the war. And as a result , many troops suffered from altitude sickness.

Ah, something in common. Modi had 6.

See my replies in context. Nehru didn’t have mountains of grain in storage, we were reliant on handouts. No one can argue that economic situation then was better than now. As for coup being a possibility, I suppose it always existed as a fear though Nehru was a towering personality and unlikely to personalise face it. Indira Gandhi had that fear and she famously asked Maneckshaw about it, heck as recent as the UPA, we had a coup scare written about.

My point was simple, we will not for a very long time, have priorities which are not pressing. We will always have to manage in spite of that.