India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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cereal killer

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Ok,so the Rafales have come. So when are throwing the Chinese out now that we have 5 rafales?

All this hype for 5 planes? Every news and media channel has been hyping this and making it seem as if we are ready for a 2 front war now that 5 Rafales are here. . Politicians being politicians won’t miss the opportunity for their pound of flesh. Can we put things in perspective and stop acting like the Porkis and making ourselves a laughing stock :doh::doh::doh:
Our MKi's radars have detected Chinese so called stealth J20's in Tibet. So if wanted to throw them out we should have. Media being media is overhyping everything. It is no wonder in case of two front war we don't have the numbers. But you want media to tell them that? Good luck with that :lawl:
 

garg_bharat

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Ok,so the Rafales have come. So when are throwing the Chinese out now that we have 5 rafales?

All this hype for 5 planes? Every news and media channel has been hyping this and making it seem as if we are ready for a 2 front war now that 5 Rafales are here. . Politicians being politicians won’t miss the opportunity for their pound of flesh. Can we put things in perspective and stop acting like the Porkis and making ourselves a laughing stock :doh::doh::doh:
Boss our media has a disease which is amplified by 24x7 news.

Better stop watching.
 

Hellfire

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Have you ever sailed on Ghorpad and Magar which must be on the verge of retirement..

Those two used to carry two brigades of sheep as "Meat n Hoof". On Landing the sheep would just roll around with seasickness and instantly die..

Have you ever used BMP as fresh subji carriers as Mechanised Infantry troops refused to get inside the BMP... lest ten of them die together...

Allaha na are kabhi aisse najare dekhane Paren... pat chala light tank bhi sabji carrier ban gaya hai..

Sabzi courier ex Chandi with hooves and greens :)

More of Airavat, Ghariyal, Jalashwa (bandicoots being the biggest menace and bed bugs the perennial ones) and Kilos here. The latter was an experience ... they deserve more special allowance than they get right now ... I was willing to fight to add my Siachen allowance worth to their allowaqnces ... Kilos are ...... horrible .

The longest stand off beaching I was witness to was 7 kms off shore of BMPs in a Sea State 5 .. and that is ... horrible.

Slithered onto a RHIB definitely, which was not that great an experience and diving with the HMO (officer was MARCOS) off Campbell bay to check out the hull .. over a period of 1 month another fine experience
 

LDev

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Ok,so the Rafales have come. So when are throwing the Chinese out now that we have 5 rafales?

All this hype for 5 planes? Every news and media channel has been hyping this and making it seem as if we are ready for a 2 front war now that 5 Rafales are here. . Politicians being politicians won’t miss the opportunity for their pound of flesh. Can we put things in perspective and stop acting like the Porkis and making ourselves a laughing stock :doh::doh::doh:
In the air to air battle scenario over Tibet, 5 Rafales will make a difference because the PLAAF does not have any platform/aam combination which can match the Rafale. In theory the IAF could do a 10x Meteor load out per Rafale if India has got that many Meteors in stock. And 5 of them could (again in theory) down 50 PLAAF aircraft if they happen to be in the vicinity because of it's long range and advertised NEZ of 60 km. Now obviously the PLAAF will not let 50 of its aircraft fly together and become flying ducks, but that capability is what the Rafale brings to the table. The shock of having even 5-10 PLAAF fighters downed on day 1 of the start of hostilities with no loss to the IAF will be a morale downer for China.
 

Bhadra

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Let us face it that abrogation of Article 370 was a big game changing historical decision for India.

Special Status of J&k meant recognition of its disputed status. What Modi did was only implemented Jhelum formula minus Pakistan. Abrogation of Article 370 has also thrown away China being the barged in the third party in the dispute. Now the Chinese role has been pushed to a limited union territory of Ladakh.

China has always used J&K dispute to its advantage in totally subjugating Pakistan. Be in 1965 or 1971 China did carry out symbolic acts of supporting China militarily.

So far as status of GB and Aksaichin are concerned Amit Shah has not stated any thing new. Thre are parliamentary resolutions of Congress govts to that effect. What is new in Amit Shah statement.

What has however happened is Modi has shown his intention of application of force by carrying out a surgical strike inside Pakistan and busting the nuclear threat. That nuclear threat and missile threat regime was assiduously built by China to tie down India with Pakistan. It was natural for China to engage India directly once their proxy deterrence regime had been thrown away by Modi.

Moreover, after CPC and strategy of BRI, the security of Pakistan and GB has become a personal concern of China. In their recent military confrontation with India, the clear aim is to save CPC. China has at least tied down at least 14 Indian divisions and stopped their dual employment. China would not mind keeping four odd divisions in Tibet so save CPEC.. and save Pakistan... their major colony..

CPC does get affected by the status of Shakshgam valley which will go in favour of India if GB becomes her part.

Hence the strategic goals for India is writ large for everyone to see - the destruction of Pakistan and amalgamation of GB.. Destruction of Pakistan is the elimination of Chinese interference South of Himalayas... Let USA and West focus on China while India remains focussed to eliminate Chia south of Himalayas and Karakoram.

That is what would be the apt strategy of Indirect approach..
 
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ARVION

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LDev

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Nowhere in the world do you have 100% access at any given time.

Intelligence gathering is one aspect. Making sense of the data and then formulating a response to it, another. If you have been to the NTRO data analysis center, you will be able to appreciate the fusion of information from multiple inputs that are operational. A fascinating process by itself.



Firstly, diversion of troops towards the LAC was duly noted and flagged. Again, you have to be embedded/plugged into the system, to understand how the information is processed. At times, you will be facing a stiff challenge when you provide an input, from another sister intelligence agency, whose domain is foreign intelligence, to raise the necessary red flags, as there may be a delay in the same agency being able to corroborate the information you have provided or the necessary corroborative 'signs' may not be presenting themselves immediately, thereby rendering your input into a pending tray of the processing tray of a desk somewhere.

It is irrelevant as to how many troops were present in depth, for the simple reason that the moment the PLA moved onto, for example, a ridge on Finger 4, the ITBP post there would have sent the information up the channel.





Sorry, I disagree. The fact that the Chinese were detected, should have resulted in massive pouring in of troops into the region, irrespective of whether was would have broken or not.

We did it in DBO back in 2013, we did it in 2014 at Chumar, we did it in Dokalam. Again, it was a political call that resulted in these situations resolving as they did.

My counter to the point above is very simple.

Mr. Shah made a categorical statement on the floor of the house over Aksai Chin. That, as a Home Minister of the Government of India.

Honestly, can you state that the GoI was not prepared to militarily deal with a situation arising out of such a statement?

And if it was not, what would you call this act of Mr. Shah?

And if it was indeed prepared, what would you call the situation that has played out?

If the contention is that India was not prepared to fight, then could you kindly comment on this particular act of Mr Shah? Can you then term the statement as being responsible?


My personal view:
An elected representative holding an Office of Trust under the Government of India can not be accused of making a loose statement. And if a loose statement has been made, then the said representative has no business being in office.
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Unrelated

PS: For those whose understanding of importance of understanding the thought process of the enemy is limited to the SM posts of random geniuses: "maneuver" is the cornerstone of every strategy. Be it corporate, market, warfare, diplomacy or political.

Certain countries have games based on precisely on that. There is a reason why there is a "Game Theory" too.
I don't think that Amit Shah's statement was the trigger that caused this Chinese move. Rather it was IMO a judgment that Xi Jinping reached after his several 1 on 1 meetings with Modi and the more confident assertive posture that India adopted under Modi, not towards China, but overall.

This Chinese move is IMO is pre-emptive to "put India in it's place" and assert the pre-eminence of China in Asia and thereby signal to the rest of Asia and the world that assertive Indian leadership does not in any shape or form challenge China's pre-eminence.

As far as the actual incursions are concerned, I don't think anybody outside the armed forces and political leadership in India really know the sequence of moves and counter moves made by the PLA and IA since early May. As far as Pangong Tso is concerned, as I understand, IA positions on the south bank can spot PLA movements all the way from their base beyond Finger 8. So the Chinese movement from Finger 8 upto Finger 4 and then digging in would have been observed, noted and reported up the chain of command.
 
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Sarjen

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This is partially conjecture on my part so that is my disclaimer but nevertheless:

1. The fact that India has integrated Astra with the SU-30 means that the Russians have parted with the Bars N011M codes with India.

2. IAF SU-30s use 2 different kinds of EW pods so unlike Spectra it is not a self contained EW suite.

3. They are the Russian SAP-18 and the Israeli ELTA EL-8222 pods.

4. The Russian pods are effective but wing tip mounted and heavy and they come at the cost of aerodynamic performance because of the heavy wing loading. The Russian pods are likely to be integrated with the Bars radar but as pointed out there is an aerodynamic penalty associated with using them.

5. I do not know if Elta has parted with the codes for the EL-8222 pods. However as you know HAL has chosen the Elta-2052 AESA radar for the Jaguar upgrade as well as for the LCA Mk1A. Since the Tejas will have the Astra integrated that means that Elta will/has parted with source codes for the 2052. Does that also now apply to the 8222 jamming pod as a negotiated package deal? No idea.
Well Abhijit's claim was Due to Secrecy these Technologies and since Russian, Western/Israeli Equipments are battling out in ME, Both of them don't want their Sensitive technologies in one platform.

Coming to LCA, Elta won't have any problem since there're only westerns/Ingenious parts are present.(IMO)
But i do agree the Abhijit in some cases trying to sell F-35 and F21 to Indiaif you see some of his interviews
 

ezsasa

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what was the motive behind anti-PR rafale campaign? wait to make IAF week or were they lobbying for another aircraft?
At the outset it was masked as a political rhetoric, but fundamentally might well have been designed to weaken India’s security architecture. Historically after Rajiv Gandhi, that’s what congi have been doing systematically.
 

Sarjen

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Anyone who thinks we have enough submarines, needs a serious look into their brains.

We have 03 tasks for the Navy. Will NOT elaborate specifically.

But we need to stitch up Sunda Straits, Malacca, East Timor Sea (potentially), monitor and prepare to interdict shipping off the coast of Pakistan, the harbours and PLAN base at Djibouti and provide screen to CBG as also the amphibious task force, when it shall need to be deployed. That shall need significant numbers.

We have the lift capacity of 02 brigades today to deploy immediately in an amphibious operation. (which can be expanded to more when the GoI decides to launch an amphibious operation by utilizing SCI ships to expand the troop carrying capacity once a beach head is secured, which itself will need at minimum a couple of submarines as escort in addition to robust ASW sweeps by frigates/destroyers)

And hey @garg_bharat I know of it because I was in that damn lift capacity when it was practiced, on board INS Jalashwa,. So yes, the effing Indian Navy and Indian Army told me.
to establish beach head in which island ???o_O
 

LDev

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Well Abhijit's claim was Due to Secrecy these Technologies and since Russian, Western/Israeli Equipments are battling out in ME, Both of them don't want their Sensitive technologies in one platform.

Coming to LCA, Elta won't have any problem since there're only westerns/Ingenious parts are present.(IMO)
But i do agree the Abhijit in some cases trying to sell F-35 and F21 to Indiaif you see some of his interviews
You've answered your own question. Both Russia and Israel are willing to part with radar source codes provided the integration is with an Indian PGM/missile. Astra is Indian and therefore it can be integrated with the SU-30 as well as the LCA. But the El-8222 integration with the Bars radar is unlikely, not impossible, just unlikely. I always wondered, why HAL chose the EL-2052 radar for the Tejas when Thales had a derivative of the Rafale Thales RBE2 AESA on offer for the Mk1A which had the huge benefit of being able to integrate the Meteor on the Mk1A, something the IAF wanted badly. HAL's answer was that Elta was the lowest AESA radar bidder, Thales quote was higher. Maybe also due to the fact that it was already chosen for the Jaguar upgrade, Elta was able to quote lower and in any event, as we all know, all French equipment is good but pricey as hell. I was hoping that for once HAL had out-performed itself and had negotiated the 8222 codes to better integrate the pod with the SU-30. But I guess my flight of fancy was just a flight of fancy. Occam's razor, EL-2052 was the lowest bidder. Q.E.D.
 
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