India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[LDev]

To target an Chinese city located at a long distance in a non nuclear scenario's .

Out's jet's will flat from the airstatone's located anywhere at the bihar , up or bengal . The jets taken from Eastern command or ladakh will act to keep busy the chinese air asset's in the air's . Almost 5 to 6 squadrons will be required for diversion's , support or Air coverages .

The air tanker's would refuel our's jet's twice at the Burma china border and at the Laos china border . The Rafale's will fly low at the various india , Burma, Laos border's near the Chinese's border's . One reached near say the pearl delta citie's . With the Awac's near the border will help the rafale to reach inside the China and the Rafale's will launch a service's of the Stand off's missile's like bharmos around defending on the altitude . And will decimate the target's in the Peral Delta Citie's .

An complex mission of around 150 aircraft may required's for my non Nuclear stand off scenario's . Based on a histrogopical mission's .

@cereal killer , @Bhadra ji .

I think all 150 jets will be shot down by Chinese SAMs and fighters if you attempt ingress from Assam/Ladakh and attempt to go 3000 km across the heart of China to reach coastal cities such as Shanghai. Not even the USAF has plans for it's aircraft to penetrate anything more than 200 kms into China and that penetration is exclusively by 5th gen stealth aircraft. They will not fly their Navy F-18s or Air Force F-15s into China only F-22s and F-35s. And right now I am not sure if they have operationalized Navy F-35 aircraft carrier wings in the South China Sea.

 

[prasadr14]

I think all 150 jets will be shot down by Chinese SAMs and fighters if you attempt ingress from Assam/Ladakh and attempt to go 3000 km across the heart of China to reach coastal cities such as Shanghai. Not even the USAF has plans for it's aircraft to penetrate anything more than 200 kms into China and that penetration is exclusively by 5th gen stealth aircraft. They will not fly their Navy F-18s or Air Force F-15s into China only F-22s and F-35s. And right now I am not sure if they have operationalized Navy F-35 aircraft carrier wings in the South China Sea.

And the same holds true for Chinese jets coming into India.
It's practically a stalemate in the air.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Might be off topic so mods may remove it.
I don't know where to post it.

Rice needed to feed 1 million people for a year=75,000 ton.

Area needed to store this much grain in 10000 ton food silo = 12 acre.

We have already seen Bio warfare next target might be food so they better start storing food in evey district of the country and make food storage silos.

This can also be used to control prices in the market.

Having the capacity to feed the population in times of drought or bio warfare is a must.

 

[LDev]

Can't depend on them 100%.

View attachment 54647

I have no idea why countries have such unrealistic expectations? No country which has developed technologies such as the jet engine or AESA radars is going to do a "transfer of technology". Besides the issue of the billions of dollars/euros that have been spent in development, the bigger factor is that this is what gives them the strategic edge. In spite of several attempts, is anybody really going to part with their silver jewels e.g. with GTRE to develop a jet engine? Of course there will be talks and talks and talks for ever but no actual movement on the ground.

 

[Synergy]

Last comment from me on this topic

Many companies that have left China have moved to Vietnam and some to Bangladesh.
Very few have come to India.( I am not talking about what will happen in future)
Why do you think our GDP growth has gone to 5% . Our exports aren't increasing because of deficiency in out manufacturing capabilities.
Let's end the topic here.

just to point out, to keep it simple, GDP depends upon many factors like aggregated demand, money supply, inflation etc. many other macro and micro economic factors are also responsible.

declining exchange rate doesn't have anything to do with internal front (directly. but it manipulates bop).

but if ₹ get appreciated, then our exports will nosedive and import will be intact or a bit higher resulting in more economic instability and resulting in more poor numbers you are pointing to.

undervalued currency will create more prospective market and appreciated one will shut many of those.

as you are repeatedly pointing to economic condition of recent past, that uncertainty is result of condition of world economy and those stimulus packages offered during and after 2008/2009 recession (in our country) and those were mainly used as overheads instead of to create any value. as a result a large chunk of money were wasted. by theory, any short term measure to tackle recession will have negative impact in the long run.

if we had ₹ around 50, then we would find our import at 450/500B and export at less than 200B resulting 250/300B outflow. (just a hypothesis).


these are the matters of core of economics and a bit tough to explain these to anybody and everybody in layman's term.

 

[ARVION]

I think all 150 jets will be shot down by Chinese SAMs and fighters if you attempt ingress from Assam/Ladakh and attempt to go 3000 km across the heart of China to reach coastal cities such as Shanghai. Not even the USAF has plans for it's aircraft to penetrate anything more than 200 kms into China and that penetration is exclusively by 5th gen stealth aircraft. They will not fly their Navy F-18s or Air Force F-15s into China only F-22s and F-35s. And right now I am not sure if they have operationalized Navy F-35 aircraft carrier wings in the South China Sea.

Well that's why fly low through the border area's which are mountainous and hard to detect and have a high survivability rate than you think's and engage with a stand off's weapon's .

 

[garg_bharat]

And the same holds true for Chinese jets coming into India.
It's practically a stalemate in the air.

I think we will face most trouble in the air. I would like to believe you but I am not so certain.
Our planning is falling short by a mile in the area of air force.

India should buy at least 100 used fighters from USA immediately. This is what I feel. Better number is 200 but at least 100 is MUST.

 

[ARVION]

And the same holds true for Chinese jets coming into India.
It's practically a stalemate in the air.

Well then you would be surprised .

 

[prasadr14]

Well then you would be surprised.

That gentleman was talking about using jets to travel to east coast China - which is realistically suicidal.
targeted missions, yes, possibility for both sides.

I think we will face most trouble in the air. I would like to believe you but I am not so certain.
Our planning is falling short by a mile in the area of air force.

India should buy at least 100 used fighters from USA immediately. This is what I feel. Better number is 200 but at least 100 is MUST.

No, we won't.
They don't have any means to put more birds in air than we can.
Now add AD systems...
What ever package they would send across would be our-numbered.

Worst thing for Xi would be a J20 going down.
Absolute worst would be a pilot being taken as POW..

 

[LDev]

It's more complicated than that. While freezing is an extreme solution, understand this...the bulk of the defence budget goes to paying salaries and pensions. Out of what's left, you have to make do for routine expenses leaving negligible amount for any major new purchase. The problem is everyone wants this, this and that...no one has any idea of how we are going to get the money and no one wants to take harsh decisions whatsoever.

This situation on the Chinese border will spur some immediate action but the long term situation is very tough.

Correct. If you look at India's defence budget, only 20% goes for capital purchases. For China the comparable figure is 40%. And that 40% is on a $180 billion defence budget, India is 20% of a $70 billion defence budget. So India's capital budget for equipment purchases is roughtly $15 billion per year right now, China is spending about $70 billion per year. To make it worse, India's 15 billion dollars is being spent on expensive imported items while China is embargoed by everyone except Russia and it gets a huge bang for the buck from it's almost exclusive domestic purchase of 70 billion dollars.

China has realized that it does not need such a huge standing army. In 2017/2018 Xi Jinping as the Chairman of the CMC decided to slash the manpower size of the PLA to below 1 million. As of 2020, for the first time since the formation of the PRC the manpower strength of the PLAAF and PLAN combined is more than the PLA. It shows you that China's focus is now on building up it's Air Force and Navy and relying more on mechanized forces, PLARF for the PLA.

 

[ARVION]

That gentleman was talking about using jets to travel to east coast China - which is realistically suicidal.
targeted missions, yes, possibility for both sides.



No, we won't.
They don't have any means to put more birds in air than we can.
Now add AD systems...
What ever package they would send across would be our-numbered.

Worst thing for Xi would be a J20 going down.
Absolute worst would be a pilot being taken as POW.....

Well , some time even the so called aucidial mission succeed more than we can ever imagine I have many examples of such mission under heavy ADS's .

 

[SimplyIndian]

Our exports won't rise much even if currency depreciates much because our manufacturing capacity is not very high.
Please do a research on India's manufacturing capabilities then talk to me.

Read below for example

View attachment 54697

View attachment 54698

View attachment 54699

View attachment 54700

View attachment 54701

Do you have habit of changing discussion point?

Pls discuss one thing at a time, and by the way this is China Border dispute thread. Open up new thread and you will find good buddies.

Just a pointer, stop quoting others for justification. Do some research and get the facts. I agree that is time taking, but help in good discussion.

 

[Mikesingh]

I think we will face most trouble in the air. I would like to believe you but I am not so certain.
Our planning is falling short by a mile in the area of air force.

India should buy at least 100 used fighters from USA immediately. This is what I feel. Better number is 200 but at least 100 is MUST.

We could get the older F-16s discarded by the USAF at throw away prices and convert them into UCAVs like they have done. Even the PLAAF have converted some of their Shenyang J-6 fighters to UCAVs with AA and AG missiles. We can afford at least 3 squadrons o these < $5 million a pop!

 

[Hellfire]

That course of action pre-supposes 100% access to Chinese deployments which India may not have had.

Nowhere in the world do you have 100% access at any given time.

Intelligence gathering is one aspect. Making sense of the data and then formulating a response to it, another. If you have been to the NTRO data analysis center, you will be able to appreciate the fusion of information from multiple inputs that are operational. A fascinating process by itself.

Heck, if India could not even figure out that 5000 PLA troops were diverted from a training exercise in Xinjiang or Tibet into the disputed areas, then the question is how confident was the IA in the early days as to exactly how many more PLA forces were already deployed indepth behind the front lines?

Firstly, diversion of troops towards the LAC was duly noted and flagged. Again, you have to be embedded/plugged into the system, to understand how the information is processed. At times, you will be facing a stiff challenge when you provide an input, from another sister intelligence agency, whose domain is foreign intelligence, to raise the necessary red flags, as there may be a delay in the same agency being able to corroborate the information you have provided or the necessary corroborative 'signs' may not be presenting themselves immediately, thereby rendering your input into a pending tray of the processing tray of a desk somewhere.

It is irrelevant as to how many troops were present in depth, for the simple reason that the moment the PLA moved onto, for example, a ridge on Finger 4, the ITBP post there would have sent the information up the channel.

So to start action at that stage could have resulted in a full scale war for which India was not prepared and had not deployed.

Sorry, I disagree. The fact that the Chinese were detected, should have resulted in massive pouring in of troops into the region, irrespective of whether was would have broken or not.

We did it in DBO back in 2013, we did it in 2014 at Chumar, we did it in Dokalam. Again, it was a political call that resulted in these situations resolving as they did.

My counter to the point above is very simple.

Mr. Shah made a categorical statement on the floor of the house over Aksai Chin. That, as a Home Minister of the Government of India.

Honestly, can you state that the GoI was not prepared to militarily deal with a situation arising out of such a statement?

And if it was not, what would you call this act of Mr. Shah?

And if it was indeed prepared, what would you call the situation that has played out?

If the contention is that India was not prepared to fight, then could you kindly comment on this particular act of Mr Shah? Can you then term the statement as being responsible?


My personal view:
An elected representative holding an Office of Trust under the Government of India can not be accused of making a loose statement. And if a loose statement has been made, then the said representative has no business being in office.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unrelated

PS: For those whose understanding of importance of understanding the thought process of the enemy is limited to the SM posts of random geniuses: "maneuver" is the cornerstone of every strategy. Be it corporate, market, warfare, diplomacy or political.

Certain countries have games based on precisely on that. There is a reason why there is a "Game Theory" too.

 

[Bhadra]

This frenzy isn't going to age well. News channels and to and extend even Airforce & govt. is trying to sell Rafale as some life-saver that will somehow immediately defeat anything and everything.
This started from last year with Air Chief saying we could have taken Pakistani jets if we had Rafale (partially true TBH, we can hardly do better for such ambush hit-and-run attack).

God forbid any of the jets crashes or taken out by China, then we will see the morale of whole India spiraling down

I corona times when people are now on the verge of frustration at home. the TV showing nationalist jingoist symbol like Rafael is a very good strategy. It is far better than Randee Nauch of TikTok or some Bollywood Love Jihad movie showing a Hindu girl falling in love with a Muslim boy and creating an upheaval.

I am yet to see a Hindu boy kidnapping a Muslim girl under a love spell in Bollywood. It is always the promotion of Love Jihad by the Like of Mahesh Bhatt and all Khans.. Jodh Akbar style... that is the dominant theme.

Rafael is not a bad nationalist symbol. It is so-called secular punctuated in between by Shri Ram Chandra Kripalu.

Chinese jolt to Indian nationalism needs to be countered.. Pakistan is in danger.. In three to foursome game, Oli and Maran Khan need to be slapped by Modi.. de danadan ... de danadan...

 

[Sehwag213]

Nowhere in the world do you have 100% access at any given time.

Intelligence gathering is one aspect. Making sense of the data and then formulating a response to it, another. If you have been to the NTRO data analysis center, you will be able to appreciate the fusion of information from multiple inputs that are operational. A fascinating process by itself.



Firstly, diversion of troops towards the LAC was duly noted and flagged. Again, you have to be embedded/plugged into the system, to understand how the information is processed. At times, you will be facing a stiff challenge when you provide an input, from another sister intelligence agency, whose domain is foreign intelligence, to raise the necessary red flags, as there may be a delay in the same agency being able to corroborate the information you have provided or the necessary corroborative 'signs' may not be presenting themselves immediately, thereby rendering your input into a pending tray of the processing tray of a desk somewhere.

It is irrelevant as to how many troops were present in depth, for the simple reason that the moment the PLA moved onto, for example, a ridge on Finger 4, the ITBP post there would have sent the information up the channel.





Sorry, I disagree. The fact that the Chinese were detected, should have resulted in massive pouring in of troops into the region, irrespective of whether was would have broken or not.

We did it in DBO back in 2013, we did it in 2014 at Chumar, we did it in Dokalam. Again, it was a political call that resulted in these situations resolving as they did.

My counter to the point above is very simple.

Mr. Shah made a categorical statement on the floor of the house over Aksai Chin. That, as a Home Minister of the Government of India.

Honestly, can you state that the GoI was not prepared to militarily deal with a situation arising out of such a statement?

And if it was not, what would you call this act of Mr. Shah?

And if it was indeed prepared, what would you call the situation that has played out?

If the contention is that India was not prepared to fight, then could you kindly comment on this particular act of Mr Shah? Can you then term the statement as being responsible?


My personal view:
An elected representative holding an Office of Trust under the Government of India can not be accused of making a loose statement. And if a loose statement has been made, then the said representative has no business being in office.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unrelated

PS: For those whose understanding of importance of understanding the thought process of the enemy is limited to the SM posts of random geniuses: "maneuver" is the cornerstone of every strategy. Be it corporate, market, warfare, diplomacy or political.

Certain countries have games based on precisely on that. There is a reason why there is a "Game Theory" too.

Is this information true ?

 

[garg_bharat]

Nowhere in the world do you have 100% access at any given time.

Intelligence gathering is one aspect. Making sense of the data and then formulating a response to it, another. If you have been to the NTRO data analysis center, you will be able to appreciate the fusion of information from multiple inputs that are operational. A fascinating process by itself.



Firstly, diversion of troops towards the LAC was duly noted and flagged. Again, you have to be embedded/plugged into the system, to understand how the information is processed. At times, you will be facing a stiff challenge when you provide an input, from another sister intelligence agency, whose domain is foreign intelligence, to raise the necessary red flags, as there may be a delay in the same agency being able to corroborate the information you have provided or the necessary corroborative 'signs' may not be presenting themselves immediately, thereby rendering your input into a pending tray of the processing tray of a desk somewhere.

It is irrelevant as to how many troops were present in depth, for the simple reason that the moment the PLA moved onto, for example, a ridge on Finger 4, the ITBP post there would have sent the information up the channel.





Sorry, I disagree. The fact that the Chinese were detected, should have resulted in massive pouring in of troops into the region, irrespective of whether was would have broken or not.

We did it in DBO back in 2013, we did it in 2014 at Chumar, we did it in Dokalam. Again, it was a political call that resulted in these situations resolving as they did.

My counter to the point above is very simple.

Mr. Shah made a categorical statement on the floor of the house over Aksai Chin. That, as a Home Minister of the Government of India.

Honestly, can you state that the GoI was not prepared to militarily deal with a situation arising out of such a statement?

And if it was not, what would you call this act of Mr. Shah?

And if it was indeed prepared, what would you call the situation that has played out?

If the contention is that India was not prepared to fight, then could you kindly comment on this particular act of Mr Shah? Can you then term the statement as being responsible?


My personal view:
An elected representative holding an Office of Trust under the Government of India can not be accused of making a loose statement. And if a loose statement has been made, then the said representative has no business being in office.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unrelated

PS: For those whose understanding of importance of understanding the thought process of the enemy is limited to the SM posts of random geniuses: "maneuver" is the cornerstone of every strategy. Be it corporate, market, warfare, diplomacy or political.

Certain countries have games based on precisely on that. There is a reason why there is a "Game Theory" too.

Are you sure this situation is connected to the statement of Shah? Did Chinese tell you that?
We are hearing many reasons. Each person has a different reason.
What if these intrusions were planned years in advance, and nothing to do with internal politics.

The delay in responding could be due to Covid19.

 

[tarunraju]

The hysteria around Rafael is sickening .....
All are showing it as panacea for all security challenges we have right now...

Let it be. National confidence is the antidote for chicom "winning without fighting" psy-warfare.

We should take this a notch further and request mosques to play back "cheen madharchod ba" Bhojpuri song after Azaan. It will do a lot good, including improving communal peace.

 

[Sehwag213]

Are you sure this situation is connected to the statement of Shah? Did Chinese tell you that?
We are hearing many reasons. Each person has a different reason.
What if these intrusions were planned years in advance, and nothing to do with internal politics.

The delay in responding could be due to Covid19.

Well reading The Hindu does that to you
Hope people don't blame Amit shah for Hong Kong National security law which was passed recently.

 

[Kumata]

Your argument is valid till the time we are able to keep Chinese at bay. The day two armies make contact, this logic will go up in smoke.

I doubt USA will restrict its products against China, or even Pakistan.

It all depends on how favourable the govt of day is in US ... there is a risk involved...