India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Sarjen]

Nope. Su-30MKI is a much better overall platform.
See the below reply.



I would have generally said I disagree, but here I call out you are wrong.

Air-to-air -
- More advanced and powerful radar.
- More range and can carry more missiles.
- Better jamming & EW
- Better maneuverability and in 1 vs. 1 scenario dogfights chances of winning > 90%
- Better WVR missiles, with Astra integration, BVR will be more or less equalized.

Air-to-ground -
- More bomb payload
- Arrays of PGMs and smart-munitions, ALCMs and Anti-ship missiles.
- If carrying jammers for area-jamming, more power to jammers.

Where Su-30MKI comes out weaker than F-16 -
- The Link-16 datalink of the USA is better. I am not sure what datalink French/Israeli mission computers are integrated with.
- Avionics are upgradable and USA is constantly upgrading them too.
- Better serviceability and turnaround time. Also cheaper to operate as cost per hour of flight.

Dude, Su-30MKI smacked Typhoon in dogfight 11-0, had nearly 1:1 kill ratio in BVR. It smacked both F-16 and F-15 in Red Flag exercises. French and Germans had their passive sensors on to get a clue of the Su-30 radar signature.

During Balakot strike 4x Su-30MKI was covering the Mirage-2000 strike package and no Pakistani jets even ventured close even after detecting the strike package. And the aftermath, they had to jam our comms and constantly shoot AMRAAMs at our 2x Su-30MKI holding fort in JnK so that they don't devour alive their strike package which again ran away at first sight of Mig-21s.

Don't let Pakistani propaganda get into your head.



Yes, also give me a biplane and launch 10 AMRAAMs at me from 100 km I will dodge all of them

Abhijit was saying, MKIs Radar and Avionics are not integrated since both Russians and Israel didn't give source codes to integrate them.. this causes confusion and in some cases EW Jammes its own radar !!!! ???? He also went onto say Radiation missiles also causes disturbance and identifies MKIs radar as enemy's!!!!

Is this True?????????/

 

[WARREN SS]

Rafale told you that??

Its Technology

 

[Sehwag213]

in last decade how many companies were trying to leave China and find an alternative destination?
what's the prospect of our economy (mainly impex) at this juncture (and in the near future)?

as @SimplyIndian has attended other points, I'm skipping those for this moment.


(haven't checked last decade impex data. will get back to you after checking).


P.S. : I think we are going ott. Mods please transfer these economy related comments to respective forum where we can continue.

Last comment from me on this topic

Many companies that have left China have moved to Vietnam and some to Bangladesh.
Very few have come to India.( I am not talking about what will happen in future)
Why do you think our GDP growth has gone to 5% . Our exports aren't increasing because of deficiency in out manufacturing capabilities.
Let's end the topic here.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Our exports won't rise much even if currency depreciates much because our manufacturing capacity is not very high.
Please do a research on India's manufacturing capabilities then talk to me.

Read below for example

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7 lakh per acre America me.
Kaha kharide bhai?
Main bhi 1acre kharid hi leta hu

 

[WARREN SS]

7 lakh per acre America me.
Kaha kharide bhai?
Main bhi 1acre kharid hi leta hu

Actually Land there Is Very Cheap
My mouth Dropped After Seeing Prices Of Homes In Suburbs there
I live in Vasant Kunj And Cost My 5 BHK Is Same
in One Offered House below 4 crore

 

[scatterStorm]

7 lakh per acre America me.
Kaha kharide bhai?
Main bhi 1acre kharid hi leta hu

Absolutely, I saw that video, can't believe my balls.

 

[Suryavanshi]

I guess 330 million people living in 10 million sq km area lowers the price.
The same for India is 1.5 billion living in 3.2 million sq km

 

[Hiranyaksha]

Actually Land there Is Very Cheap
My mouth Dropped After Seeing Prices Of Homes In Suburbs there
I live in Vasant Kunj And Cost My 5 BHK Is Same
in One Offered House below 4 crore

Even in Europe cost of land/housing is not as costly as it is India.
India is fucking crazy.

 

[Sehwag213]

I guess 330 million people living in 10 million sq km area lowers the price.
The same for India is 1.5 billion living in 3.2 million sq km

Also real estate lobby is very powerful in India. It is not allowing prices to come down.
Even in Noida and Patna , you won't get a decent 3 BHK house in a good locality at less than 1 crore rupees.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

I guess 330 million people living in 10 million sq km area lowers the price.
The same for India is 1.5 billion living in 3.2 million sq km

It is mostly black money which is parked in the real estate. Most of the Indians live in kabotarkhanas type apartment after exorbitant amount of money of it.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Su30 is for BVR combat. Lets start from there. If it needs Astra for BVR, then our assumptions are wrong as this platform was bought in 1998 (thats what I remember). Why Astra not available even today.

Su30 radar signature is an issue. Its too big.

Jamming yes. But then Su30 should have attacked the F-16 when it had a chance. The poor Abhinandan brought down at least one despite great odds. Why not Su30? Though rumours are that Su30 got its chance too later (against JF17), an incident which was hidden by PAF as an accident.

But point is that Su30 needs to prove itself.

Su30 is for BVR combat. Lets start from there. If it needs Astra for BVR, then our assumptions are wrong as this platform was bought in 1998 (thats what I remember).

All of the Russian air-superiority jets are focused upon the doctrine of WVR combat. With AIM-120Bs of last decade, Su-30MKI with R-77 & R-27 series can hold. With the integration of more advanced AIM-120C5/C7 with greater range, speed, and better ECCM ability F-16 has the edge, yes. But then again Su-30MKI got a better self-protection suite.

Why Astra not available even today

Because we are lenient on PSUs and white elephant organizations like DRDO and HAL. Give the contract to make A2A missile to TATA or Kalyani and you will see them churning out missiles as good as AMRAAMs in 2-3 years.

Su30 radar signature is an issue. Its too big.

F-16 body is also made of pure aluminum alloy. It is no better in the radar signature. Also, Su-30 was never meant to be stealthy and sneaky. It is created as a missile truck of doom.

But then Su30 should have attacked the F-16 when it had a chance

It had the chance when the strike package returned. BVR engagement was not allowed before that. Crossing LoC to engage enemy jets were not allowed either. (Pakistani jets were laying an ambush anyway).

The poor Abhinandan brought down at least one despite great odds

He violated ROE and crossed LoC, (intentionally or unintentionally, is a debated topic within AF) without his wingman or any support, chased his prey all the way deep into PoK, which surprised and created panic among PAF jets conducting BARCAP. Yes, he found his target, but his chances of survival were slim.
His situation was kind-of 300 Spartans in the battle of Thermopylae. Yes, it was brave of him, but also suicidal.

Why not Su30?

They were protecting crucial sites from any further PAF attacks, also actively jamming so that they cannot guide their munition to target (2-3 PGMs fell before reaching their target).

Though rumours are that Su30 got its chance too later (against JF17), an incident which was hidden by PAF as an accident

Not aware of any such incident. One I know that happened in Rajasthan where 2x PAF packages (most probably F-16s) were nose-hot towards Jaisalmer, and our jets on CAP launched BVRs at them before they even reached close to the border.
Their package just dropped their fuel tanks and ran away. It created a huge uproar, was in the news.

But point is that Su30 needs to prove itself.

Agree. But can we not judge our jets by a 5-mins fiasco that happened between a highly restricted environment? Even in that, Su-30MKI proved itself to be superior in holding against 6:1 one ratio and nullified AMRAAMS using EW (which no Russian jet has done before).

 

[Suryavanshi]

Also real estate lobby is very powerful in India. It is not allowing prices to come down.
Even in Noida and Patna , you won't get a decent 3 BHK house in a good locality at less than 1 crore rupees.

Well patna has become a shithole stil land in Boring road and baily road costs 1 crore or more.
Land in village cost around 20 lakh for 1 acre

 

[WARREN SS]

I guess 330 million people living in 10 million sq km area lowers the price.
The same for India is 1.5 billion living in 3.2 million sq km

Yup But What We Lack Is Level Quality you get Plus add on Like Pool
Centralized Heating/Cooling ,Well Furnished Bathrooms
Moduler Kitchen

Modular Kitchen In India Alone cost Around 10-15 Lakhs Top End

And in Us It Comes in With In house Package deal

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Actually Land there Is Very Cheap
My mouth Dropped After Seeing Prices Of Homes In Suburbs there
I live in Vasant Kunj And Cost My 5 BHK Is Same
in One Offered House below 4 crore

This is a house normally owned by any family with an annual income of close to 200k

 

[mist_consecutive]

Abhijit was saying, MKIs Radar and Avionics are not integrated since both Russians and Israel didn't give source codes to integrate them.. this causes confusion and in some cases EW Jammes its own radar !!!! ???? He also went onto say Radiation missiles also causes disturbance and identifies MKIs radar as enemy's!!!!

Is this True?????????/

Yes, I saw his article. And that is the only source. In that article, he keeps on going how MKI is complete trash and we might as well fly pigeons.
It doesn't require much brain to understand its work of western paid lobby to push F-16s and Rafales were behind this.

But what if it is true? Right? Let me give you a small brain puzzle.
We have MKIs for the last 20 years. Our air force trusts it and we ordered 272 of them, making it the backbone of IAF after Mig-21. We had numerous practice exercises with it, even with foreign countries.
If our frontline jet was suffering from such dire problem, would it not have been corrected by now, or if we are not able to, we would have ditched it? But we are only ordering more.

It is possible there is some interference between radar & EW suite, both being of different origins, but to the level quoted is not only unrealistic but also laughable.

 

[garg_bharat]

Indian currency has depreciated from Rs 46 in 2010 to Rs 75 now . This is around 80% depreciation . While our export has increased only 30% .

We don't have any industrial base to export.


While Yuan has depreciated from 6.8 to 7 in last decade only 3 % . Yet there export have also gone up by 20% in last decade.

We are too uncompetetive internationally to export anything.

Modi has a sound strategy. The roads and rail infra will cut transport cost and time.

The industrial estates are already there. Every State has many industrial estates full of sick industries. Land can be acquired though expensive initially but supply is there.

Electricity situation is improving steadily. Power cuts are still there but much less.

I think for export oriented zones, 24x7 power is quite possible.
Water is manageable in most States.
Major remaining are labour laws, flow of capital, and legal issues. Being tackled.

 

[tarunraju]

Translation of that Sanskrit:
There's nothing more pious than national defence
There's no sacrifice greater than national defence.
There's no greater appeasement of the Gods than national defence.

 

[Sarjen]

Yes, I saw his article. And that is the only source. In that article, he keeps on going how MKI is complete trash and we might as well fly pigeons.
It doesn't require much brain to understand its work of western paid lobby to push F-16s and Rafales were behind this.

But what if it is true? Right? Let me give you a small brain puzzle.
We have MKIs for the last 20 years. Our air force trusts it and we ordered 272 of them, making it the backbone of IAF after Mig-21. We had numerous practice exercises with it, even with foreign countries.
If our frontline jet was suffering from such dire problem, would it not have been corrected by now, or if we are not able to, we would have ditched it? But we are only ordering more.

It is possible there is some interference between radar & EW suite, both being of different origins, but to the level quoted is not only unrealistic but also laughable.

Do you know if they're integrated ?? or runs independently

 

[garg_bharat]

Indian currency has depreciated from Rs 46 in 2010 to Rs 75 now . This is around 80% depreciation . While our export has increased only 30% .

We don't have any industrial base to export.


While Yuan has depreciated from 6.8 to 7 in last decade only 3 % . Yet there export have also gone up by 20% in last decade.

We are too uncompetetive internationally to export anything.

The export of engineered goods is showing improvement year after year. Export of automobiles is good example.
Export of services is also quite healthy.
We are not competitive in low priced consumer goods. But situation can change with better infra.

 

[Kalki2020]

The hysteria around Rafael is sickening .....
All are showing it as panacea for all security challenges we have right now...