India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Synergy]

I assume this Rafale PR is required to show that Modi was right. We gave order of 36 and it was right. Congress was wrong from the start when they started Refale scam.

Ultimately, Modi wants to prove to General Public that he is right, and congress is wrong. He was doing it for Nation and Cong was doing it to topple the govt and just to get into Center. He is doing this to show that He is Nationalistic, but Cong is not.

China at the Gates has given him this opportunity. It will also increase BJP Vote share for sure.

and probably a repeated order.

 

[Sehwag213]

firstly, most probably the tenure won't be 5 years. it will be 20 years.
next, 5 yr credit has almost negligible amount of interest rate (as far as I can recall).
next, when we have $70/80B private remittances (per ur) paying $20B/year won't be a very big deal (leaving every other thing aside).


next, even if ₹ tanks, if we can decrease our import a bit, lower value of ₹ will actually help us in the near future. and for your reference, China deliberately undervalued their currency to help export. I think you can recall US call to appreciate value of renminbi/yuan.

Indian currency has depreciated from Rs 46 in 2010 to Rs 75 now . This is around 80% depreciation . While our export has increased only 30% .

We don't have any industrial base to export.


While Yuan has depreciated from 6.8 to 7 in last decade only 3 % . Yet there export have also gone up by 20% in last decade.

We are too uncompetetive internationally to export anything.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Is F-16 superior to Su 30 MKI ?

Nope. Su-30MKI is a much better overall platform.
See the below reply.

Honestly Su30 has no advantage over F16 except range in air to air fight.

That said, the heavier platform of Su30 is more versatile as a bomber.

I would have generally said I disagree, but here I call out you are wrong.

Air-to-air -
- More advanced and powerful radar.
- More range and can carry more missiles.
- Better jamming & EW
- Better maneuverability and in 1 vs. 1 scenario dogfights chances of winning > 90%
- Better WVR missiles, with Astra integration, BVR will be more or less equalized.

Air-to-ground -
- More bomb payload
- Arrays of PGMs and smart-munitions, ALCMs and Anti-ship missiles.
- If carrying jammers for area-jamming, more power to jammers.

Where Su-30MKI comes out weaker than F-16 -
- The Link-16 datalink of the USA is better. I am not sure what datalink French/Israeli mission computers are integrated with.
- Avionics are upgradable and USA is constantly upgrading them too.
- Better serviceability and turnaround time. Also cheaper to operate as cost per hour of flight.

Dude, Su-30MKI smacked Typhoon in dogfight 11-0, had nearly 1:1 kill ratio in BVR. It smacked both F-16 and F-15 in Red Flag exercises. French and Germans had their passive sensors on to get a clue of the Su-30 radar signature.

During Balakot strike 4x Su-30MKI was covering the Mirage-2000 strike package and no Pakistani jets even ventured close even after detecting the strike package. And the aftermath, they had to jam our comms and constantly shoot AMRAAMs at our 2x Su-30MKI holding fort in JnK so that they don't devour alive their strike package which again ran away at first sight of Mig-21s.

Don't let Pakistani propaganda get into your head.

could F16 dodge 5 AMRAAMs?

Yes, also give me a biplane and launch 10 AMRAAMs at me from 100 km I will dodge all of them

 

[SimplyIndian]

It won't bankrupt. Rupee will tank and nominal gdp will start decreasing similar to what is happening with Pakistan
Additional 20 billion imports per year with no corresponding increase in exports will ensure annual 5% depreciation of currency. And in a 5 year term , this would ensure our nominal gdp will fall by 22%

See how INR has fallen from 64 to 75 in last 3 years. This resulted in decrease of our nominal gdp by around 16% in last 3 years.
Means had currency not depreciated our gdp would have atleast 3.3 trillion dollar now instead of 2.9 trillion.

Chk the External commercial borrowing figure for india. On an average we are taking USD 40 Billion loanseach year.

I dont understand, without even basic finance knowledge how can someone write like he is expert.
Rupee moving up and down has nothing to do with Borrowing. go figure why.

Do you know how many country accept INR for trade. Do you know with how many conutry we do trade in INR? Do you know Our current account is in Positive now.
Do you know that because of oil price downward movement, india will save ~ USD 30 Billion this year. and some in next year.
Do you know by Banning Chicoms apps, how much $$$ are now not leaving india everyday.


Dont assume things. You are making ASS of U and ME by doing it.

 

[nick_indian]

Dassault’s PR guys would be wondering why the hell were we paying dalal’s, when it is so easy to create hype & frenzy among Indian public.

I suggest the French bomb the Chinese with the Rafale in any one place of their choosing. Can't be better PR than that to sell more planes in India right now.

 

[SimplyIndian]

Indian currency has depreciated from Rs 46 in 2010 to Rs 75 now . This is around 80% depreciation . While our export has increased only 30% .

We don't have any industrial base to export.


While Yuan has depreciated from 6.8 to 7 in last decade only 3 % . Yet there export have also gone up by 20% in last decade.

We are too uncompetetive internationally to export anything.

Your finance knowledge is upside down bro, sorry to say that.

When country want to export more they depreciate their currency.

Strong currency discourage export.

Why US import everything because they have strong $$$.
Why China Export everything because they pegged it and not allow it to appreciate. If China hvae strong Currency, their cheap price competitiveness will go away.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

राष्ट्ररक्षासमं पुण्यं,
राष्ट्ररक्षासमं व्रतम्,

राष्ट्ररक्षासमं यज्ञो,

दृष्टो नैव च नैव च।।

नभः स्पृशं दीप्तम्...

स्वागतम्! #RafaleInIndia

Modi be like

 

[WARREN SS]

Mean While Yankees 100 years ahead

 

[hit&run]

Yup, anti Rafale PR in all news channels went on for three months atleast on a daily basis, pro-Rafale PR has been going on hardly for a week.

Some Indians especially Hindus have habit of doing tatti every time when some thing good happens. When bad happens they lose their head and surrender. When good happens they become defensive and go into guilt trip.

 

[BangaliBabu]

Petrol kharidene ke paise nahi hai lekin training behtar hai. Hawabaz paper plane uda ke training karte hai.

No, it's really serious. They're training at the level of DPRK's Air Force. 9 times in the room, 1 time in the air. Saving fuel money......

 

[garg_bharat]

Nope. Su-30MKI is a much better overall platform.
See the below reply.



I would have generally said I disagree, but here I call out you are wrong.

Air-to-air -
- More advanced and powerful radar.
- More range and can carry more missiles.
- Better jamming & EW
- Better maneuverability and in 1 vs. 1 scenario dogfights chances of winning > 90%
- Better WVR missiles, with Astra integration, BVR will be more or less equalized.

Air-to-ground -
- More bomb payload
- Arrays of PGMs and smart-munitions, ALCMs and Anti-ship missiles.
- If carrying jammers for area-jamming, more power to jammers.

Where Su-30MKI comes out weaker than F-16 -
- The Link-16 datalink of the USA is better. I am not sure what datalink French/Israeli mission computers are integrated with.
- Avionics are upgradable and USA is constantly upgrading them too.
- Better serviceability and turnaround time. Also cheaper to operate as cost per hour of flight.

Dude, Su-30MKI smacked Typhoon in dogfight 11-0, had nearly 1:1 kill ratio in BVR. It smacked both F-16 and F-15 in Red Flag exercises. French and Germans had their passive sensors on to get a clue of the Su-30 radar signature.

During Balakot strike 4x Su-30MKI was covering the Mirage-2000 strike package and no Pakistani jets even ventured close even after detecting the strike package. And the aftermath, they had to jam our comms and constantly shoot AMRAAMs at our 2x Su-30MKI holding fort in JnK so that they don't devour alive their strike package which again ran away at first sight of Mig-21s.

Don't let Pakistani propaganda get into your head.



Yes, also give me a biplane and launch 10 AMRAAMs at me from 100 km I will dodge all of them

Su30 is for BVR combat. Lets start from there. If it needs Astra for BVR, then our assumptions are wrong as this platform was bought in 1998 (thats what I remember). Why Astra not available even today.

Su30 radar signature is an issue. Its too big.

Jamming yes. But then Su30 should have attacked the F-16 when it had a chance. The poor Abhinandan brought down at least one despite great odds. Why not Su30? Though rumours are that Su30 got its chance too later (against JF17), an incident which was hidden by PAF as an accident.

But point is that Su30 needs to prove itself.

Su30 may find itself in difficulty against latest Chinese jets. Smaller stealthy jets with powerful AESA radars and long range BVR missiles have much better chance against Chinese fighters.

You seem to be IAF fanboy. I think IAF is the weak link in our forces.

IAF thought process itself needs change.

 

[WARREN SS]

Well Officially We have Now Most Sophisticated Fighter In Asia

 

[BangaliBabu]

Well Officially We have Now Most Sophisticated Fighter In Asia

Rafale told you that??

 

[Synergy]

Indian currency has depreciated from Rs 46 in 2010 to Rs 75 now . This is around 80% depreciation . While our export has increased only 30% .

We don't have any industrial base to export.


While Yuan has depreciated from 6.8 to 7 in last decade only 3 % . Yet there export have also gone up by 20% in last decade.

We are too uncompetetive internationally to export anything.

in last decade how many companies were trying to leave China and find an alternative destination?
what's the prospect of our economy (mainly impex) at this juncture (and in the near future)?

as @SimplyIndian has attended other points, I'm skipping those for this moment.


(haven't checked last decade impex data. will get back to you after checking).


P.S. : I think we are going ott. Mods please transfer these economy related comments to respective forum where we can continue.

 

[Gingo12345]

Well Officially We have Now Most Sophisticated Fighter In Asia

Japan and South Korea have the F-35

 

[WARREN SS]

Su30 is for BVR combat. Lets start from there. If it needs Astra for BVR, then our assumptions are wrong as this platform was bought in 1998 (thats what I remember). Why Astra not available even today.

MKI's are For Multi Role Envelope It Will Annihilate on anything With Payload Ability

50 Mki's Can Carry 150 Kh-59MK: 285 km (150 nmi) And 300 Kh-31P And 50 Brahmos

 

[WARREN SS]

Japan and South Korea have the F-35

Well Still in IOC stage also
Technology almost Same Accept VLO design
Spectra Offers Active Jamming /Cancellation
Better BVR(Till Long-Range Engagement Weapon (LREW) )

 

[dude00720]

This frenzy isn't going to age well. News channels and to and extend even Airforce & govt. is trying to sell Rafale as some life-saver that will somehow immediately defeat anything and everything.
This started from last year with Air Chief saying we could have taken Pakistani jets if we had Rafale (partially true TBH, we can hardly do better for such ambush hit-and-run attack).

God forbid any of the jets crashes or taken out by China, then we will see the morale of whole India spiraling down

The only place where Frenzy will go up and down is this group. While going from, we can capture Lhasa to we have lost Leh. This group swings through some really high crests and troughs.

Politically, India is in a very good place. Modi cant be defeated. Indian people trust him. including people who vote Congress. So, a Rafale here and there does not matter.

India has seen 1991 crash and survived. This Morale business is child's play.

 

[Sehwag213]

Your finance knowledge is upside down bro, sorry to say that.

When country want to export more they depreciate their currency.

Strong currency discourage export.

Why US import everything because they have strong $$$.
Why China Export everything because they pegged it and not allow it to appreciate. If China hvae strong Currency, their cheap price competitiveness will go away.

Our exports won't rise much even if currency depreciates much because our manufacturing capacity is not very high.
Please do a research on India's manufacturing capabilities then talk to me.

Read below for example

 

[scatterStorm]

Is F-16 superior to Su 30 MKI ?

Superior in terms of what?
IMHO, your question is not properly formed. When you say superior its a generalization of the whole platform being superior. However is real world scenario, random events (pilot mistakes) can put a shiny toy as inferior, like J20 or Rafael.


Now to answer your question, historically speaking SU30s is a derivative of SU27 which were being developed in the late 80s to counter western threat such as F15Eagle. SU27 does it much better to F15 eagle and its derivatives.

Now when the F16 program started, it was thought of as nimble, small and very agile fighter. F16 and its other variant were generations ahead of SU27. Both, in terms of avionics and armaments. Than sanctions happened and soviet union disintegrated (so less funding) which impacted the avionics program of soviets.

To counter that later, Russian built the SU30 platform and much later SU35. As F16 got modernized, the OEMs countered that with better auxiliary aerodynamics and somewhat better avionics. So they improved the platform from SU30MKK to SU30MKE (e for export).

Russian develop late but develop counter offensive products since cold-war. Its only now that they shifted from counter-offensive to full blown offensive (SU57 → 22 + 35 = 57) got my point.


The improvements were:

1. Unmatched wing-loading.
2. Unmatched maneuverability with canards and TVC Nozzles.
3. Better avionics with Bars PESA long range radar. (J20 got detected by this*)
4. Multi-role (able to switch between ground missions to air superiority in no time)
5. Network centric warfare capability (With just two MKI you can make them into miniature awacs)
6. High energy to low energy kinematics performance. (F16 is only high energy fighter, high turn rate fighter)
7. Higher angels (altitude) (meaning you can fire R77 at supersonic speeds and make it BVR, sort of)
8. Unmatched range. (without drop tanks)
9. Can serve as a small aerial refuel tanker.

To defeat F16:
1. Need counter BVR weapons (now we have, Astra Mk1) (gap is now closed) PAF will be shitting in there pants. Now MKI can go full offensive.

2. Need better radar and avionics (the only thing it suffers from). However, if both gets detected, its combat proven that BVR missiles can be defeated. However taking former point, this point weigh less as now you can at least reach F16 to force it into WVR fight.

Now F16 was actually created for WVR fights (It got BVR capability due to improvement in radar tech) so you might think of well why we force this jet into WVR fight.

Well because other than a high turn rate fighter its really poor in low energy flight regimes. Which brings me to,
3. Never allow F16 into a turn rate fight. Not that MKI can't turn better, it can well over out-turn it, but weight is an important factor when it comes to climb-rate. F16 pilot would force an MKI pilot into vertical climbs which is where things go pretty nasty. Thankfully you have WVR missiles.

Nevertheless, there are many tactics not just I pointed out in #3, but many. Had a long chat with an IAF buddy of mine. Those red-flag exercise and other exercise are great benefit.

Fun-fact red-flag exercises are not for practicing skills, they are collecting data for 6th gen program, because AI would be providing better solutions in real-time and for that you need a lot of data.

* For the person who maintains J20 thread should know that Phased array is basically AESA but with less TR modules . It only suffers with accuracy but not detection.