India-China 2020 Border conflict

garg_bharat

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I don't think it's a good idea to lose Doklam and surrounding Bhutanese territory to China. If India looks the other way on Chinese landgrabbing of Bhutanese territory in Doklam now, it will mean losing an extremely important strategic area to China, which will eventually come back to haunt India during any active war. In spite of public statements to the contrary, Bhutan is helpless here without Indian help. If India does not actively step up now to stop China, not only will it lose a strategic piece of land to China, but also Bhutan's trust in the long term. Since China is already occupying this land, India doesn't need Bhutan's permission to encircle Chinese positions here, either.

For too long economic and political reasons have been used to justify strategic territorial losses to China. I believe India can tackle both the economy and China at the same time.

India should encircle the areas illegally occupied by China in Doklam, including the village and the road. It should also stop any further road construction and stop Chinese troops from entering the area, similar to what the PLA is doing to Indian Army patrols in Depsang.

Here is an article with the relevent positions shown on satellite images:


Satellite images appear to show China developing area along disputed border with India and Bhutan
By James Griffiths and Manveena Suri, CNN

Updated 9:49 PM ET, Tue November 24, 2020
An annotated satellite image of the China-Bhutan border in the disputed region of Doklam which appears to show a newly constructed village and supply depot.


An annotated satellite image of the China-Bhutan border in the disputed region of Doklam which appears to show a newly constructed village and supply depot.
Hong Kong (CNN)New satellite images appear to show China has built up an area in the Himalayas along a disputed border with India and Bhutan that was the site of a months-long standoff in 2017.
According to US-based satellite operator Maxar Technologies, the images, dated October 28, 2020, show "there has clearly been significant construction activity this year all along the Torsa River valley area." In a statement, Maxar added there had also been construction of "new military storage bunkers" near the Doklam area.
Maxar said the images show the newly constructed Pangda Village, on the Bhutanese side of the disputed border, as well as a supply depot in Chinese territory, near the point of a tense dispute between Indian and Chinese forces in 2017.
In a statement, Bhutan's ambassador to India, Major General Vetsop Namgyel, said "there is no Chinese village inside Bhutan."


China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that "China's normal construction activities on its own territory are entirely within the scope of China's sovereignty, and there is nothing wrong with it." India's Ministry of External Affairs did not respond to a request for comment.
Indian broadcaster NDTV first reported the satellite images.
Satellite imagery of the Chinese village of Pangda, provided by Maxar Technologies. The firm claims the village was built on the Bhutanese side of a disputed border with China.


Satellite imagery of the Chinese village of Pangda, provided by Maxar Technologies. The firm claims the village was built on the Bhutanese side of a disputed border with China.
A thin strip of land bordering all three countries, the Doklam area is claimed by both China and Bhutan, but it is also strategically important to India, because of its proximity to the Siliguri Corridor, a vital artery between New Delhi and its north eastern states.
"The Siliguri Corridor is strategically important and highly sensitive territory, as it remains the only bridge between the eight north-eastern states of India and the rest of the country," analyst Syed Fazl-e-Haider wrote earlier this year in an article published by Australian think tank, The Lowy Institute . "By an advance of just 130 kilometers (80 miles), the Chinese military could cut off Bhutan, west Bengal and the north-eastern states of India. About 50 million people in north-east India would be separated from the country."
In an article in the state-run Global Times newspaper Monday, Chinese experts were quoted refuting Maxar's claims and reports in Indian media that a village had been built in Bhutanese territory.
Just where the two countries draw their borders is highly disputed, however. The 2017 stand-off was sparked after Bhutan accused China of constructing a road inside its territory in "direct violation" of treaty obligations. China, which does not have formal diplomatic relations with Bhutan, denied the accusation, contending that the area is part of Chinese territory.
Bhutan is traditionally a strong ally of India's, relying on Delhi to provide training for its armed forces and cooperating closely with India on foreign policy. That appears to be shifting, however, particularly as the rivalry between Beijing and Delhi heats up.
Earlier this year, India and China engaged in a bloody clash along another disputed border in the Himalayas which left at least 20 soldiers dead, the worst conflict between the two countries since they fought a war over the same territory in 1962.
While both countries agreed to deescalate, Maxar Technologies' satellite imagery has shown that China continues to reinforce its position along the border with India, though further construction is unlikely at this time of year due to the harsh winter conditions high in the Himalayas.
A wide view of the disputed Doklam area provided by Maxar Technologies.


A wide view of the disputed Doklam area provided by Maxar Technologies.
The continued gradual reinforcement of positions, and angrily rebuffed allegations of encroachment, has echoes of Beijing's behavior in the South China Sea, where it has built up and militarized islets, reefs and islands, giving it effective control of huge swaths of the disputed region, a hugely important fishing and shipping area over which sovereignty is claimed in part or whole by six other governments.
"They're asserting their claim so they're creating the facts on the ground so there's the village, which is part of a larger policy," said Manoj Joshi, a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, a New Delhi-based think tank. "After (2017), they realized, just like the Indian side, their border areas are very thinly populated so it becomes very difficult to patrol the area. Now, by creating these facts on the ground, by creating this village, you can say it was always there. In the style of the Chinese, you create the facts on ground and then you say it's always been the case."
"I think (Bhutan has) figured that we'll live with it and not make a noise and just look the other way," Joshi said, adding that without its neighbor complaining, there is little Delhi can do.
"As the crow flies, this point is over 11 kilometers from the Indian position so there's nothing India can do unless Bhutan makes a public call for help. If you look at the Indo-Bhutanese Treaty, there's no explicit defense clause. So, essentially the Bhutanese live with it, we look the other way and the Chinese create the facts on the ground."
In particular, the rather tenuous nature of Pangda Village is reminiscent of the initial bases built on sandbars and tiny islets in the disputed waters. The high Himalayas are a hostile environment at the best of times, but as Nathan Ruser, an analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, the new village appears built more for territorial bragging rights than longevity.
"The high resolution imagery also shows how precarious of a village it is, being constructed on what is essentially a sandbank in the middle of a mountain river valley (where snowmelt and high cliffs make water flow unpredictable and flash floods common)," Ruser wrote on Twitter in response to the new imagery. "To combat this Chinese engineers have constructed a small retaining wall, I assume designed to keep any flood water out of the village. I'm not sure I'd trust it when the only way in and out is a road that would get flooded before the village."
The problem is 'the facts on the ground' are alarming but not a reason to start a large scale war.

When you go to war with an enemy like China; you better be very well prepared; and not only on the border but in depth areas as well.

And the government will have to declare war.
 

Deadtrap

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Bengaluru company's AI tool to interpret cross-border Mandarin intercepts
Chethan Kumar | TNN | Updated: Nov 28, 2020, 10:19 IST
TNNFile photo for representation purpose only
BENGALURU: A Bengaluru firm with expertise in conversational artificial intelligence (AI), whose solution delivered last year is also being used by the
Indian armed forces
on the western and eastern borders, has now developed a new integrated speech recognition-based solution that can help interpret cross-border intercepts along India’s northern and northeastern borders.
The end-to-end voice translation system developed by Gnani.ai uses automatic speech recognition (ASR), machine translation and speech-to-text to convert Mandarin to English and is designed to help armed forces, intelligence agencies and local law enforcement authorities in improving communication systems and giving substantial leeway to the defence forces.
The firm has used more than 8,000 hours of audio data — four major dialects of Mandarin — to train the machine, and the firm’s co-founder and CTO, Ananth Nagaraj, told TOI the tool would transform and improve the communication systems and help strengthen armed forces.

The solution has a wide range of applications that includes cross border intelligence, voice surveillance, monitoring telephone/internet conversations, intercepting radio/satellite communication and to bridge interactions during border meetings and joint exercises.


The firm also said that their tool has features like noise reduction, dialect/accent detection and support for all audio file formats.


“We are in talks with the armed forces and as on date, we are 100% confident of them accepting this given our previous success. You will hear something from them in the next few months. In 2019, we delivered on a significant contract for the armed forces, and our solution is being used on the western and eastern borders. This changed the game for them,” Nagaraj said.

He said that earlier, the armed forces, which had intercepts from various sources, used either manual analysis or keyword-based search technology. Gnani’s solution used AI and provided a complete transcript of millions of records in a matter of hours.

“For instance, someone had to sit and listen to all the records to find keywords like Aloo or Gobi (code for grenade). They would have to listen to all of them and narrow down how many conversations had such keywords, which was time consuming. With our solution giving a complete transcript, they can simply search,” Nagaraj said.


Nagaraj said the firm realised that the armed forces do not have enough expertise in Mandarin compared to the languages used in Pakistan, Bangladesh or Nepal.


“Working with them (armed forces), we understood that in this case, just giving a transcript was not enough as not many understand Mandarin. So we are offering a transcript in various Mandarin dialects, and a complete translation of the same in English,” he said.

On the value of the 2019 contract, Nagaraj said: “I’m not at liberty to disclose that, but I can say that it was significant. We are a team of 50 AI people in Bengaluru and the contract was worth enough to keep us all happy for a few years.”

 

johnq

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The problem is 'the facts on the ground' are alarming but not a reason to start a large scale war.

When you go to war with an enemy like China; you better be very well prepared; and not only on the border but in depth areas as well.

And the government will have to declare war.
If China is building villages, roads and dual use infrastructure on Bhutanese territory, India can do the same to counter those positions, especially in a vulnerable area like Doklam. Losing this area to the Chinese is a terrible idea. India can also create "facts on the ground" around the village and the road, and stop Chinese from further encroaching on Bhutanese territory.

Indian bureaucrats have bought the idea of the Chinese being a formidable enemy, but this is more Chinese propaganda than anything else. I would rate PLA a level below Pakistan in actual fighting ability. The truth is that the PLA is mostly made up of malnourished 5 foot tall conscripts with poor training and no fighting experience. Their equipment also has severe quality control issues, reports of which have been leaking out for some time through news of Chinese weapons exports not working properly.

PLA is good at posturing, occupying empty territory and quickly building defences on it, and psy ops propaganda to intimidate the enemy; not so good at actual fighting. This is also the reason why they negotiated an agreement which forbids the use of firearms at the LAC; knowing fully well that their poorly trained han soldiers would get decimated in a hot war. Indian gullible bureaucrats infected by the 10 foot chinamen syndrome happily obliged, not knowing that they were negating the PLA's greatest disadvantage in the process. If Indian soldiers had engaged in a firefight at Galwan, they would've completely decimated the Chinese with fewer casualties, even though they were greatly outnumbered. As of now the Indian soldiers are some of the best trained soldiers in the world, with PLA being some of the worst in both training and equipment.

The only thing holding India back from completely destroying the PLA are the Indian bureaucrats/politicians/some army brass that are infected by the 10 foot chinamen syndrome. Even now, if Indian military are allowed to do their job without any restrictions, Indian military would completely defeat the PLA in Doklam, Ladakh and elsewhere.

PS: PLA is also significantly behind in weapons technology; ignore the shiny brochure images and ask someone in the know. They will tell you the same thing I am telling you.
 
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mokoman

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I don't think it's a good idea to lose Doklam and surrounding Bhutanese territory to China. If India looks the other way on Chinese landgrabbing of Bhutanese territory in Doklam now, it will mean losing an extremely important strategic area to China, which will eventually come back to haunt India during any active war. In spite of public statements to the contrary, Bhutan is helpless here without Indian help. If India does not actively step up now to stop China, not only will it lose a strategic piece of land to China, but also Bhutan's trust in the long term. Since China is already occupying this land, India doesn't need Bhutan's permission to encircle Chinese positions here, either.

For too long economic and political reasons have been used to justify strategic territorial losses to China. I believe India can tackle both the economy and China at the same time.

India should encircle the areas illegally occupied by China in Doklam, including the village and the road. It should also stop any further road construction and stop Chinese troops from entering the area, similar to what the PLA is doing to Indian Army patrols in Depsang.

Here is an article with the relevent positions shown on satellite images:


Satellite images appear to show China developing area along disputed border with India and Bhutan
By James Griffiths and Manveena Suri, CNN

Updated 9:49 PM ET, Tue November 24, 2020
An annotated satellite image of the China-Bhutan border in the disputed region of Doklam which appears to show a newly constructed village and supply depot.


An annotated satellite image of the China-Bhutan border in the disputed region of Doklam which appears to show a newly constructed village and supply depot.
Hong Kong (CNN)New satellite images appear to show China has built up an area in the Himalayas along a disputed border with India and Bhutan that was the site of a months-long standoff in 2017.
According to US-based satellite operator Maxar Technologies, the images, dated October 28, 2020, show "there has clearly been significant construction activity this year all along the Torsa River valley area." In a statement, Maxar added there had also been construction of "new military storage bunkers" near the Doklam area.
Maxar said the images show the newly constructed Pangda Village, on the Bhutanese side of the disputed border, as well as a supply depot in Chinese territory, near the point of a tense dispute between Indian and Chinese forces in 2017.
In a statement, Bhutan's ambassador to India, Major General Vetsop Namgyel, said "there is no Chinese village inside Bhutan."


China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that "China's normal construction activities on its own territory are entirely within the scope of China's sovereignty, and there is nothing wrong with it." India's Ministry of External Affairs did not respond to a request for comment.
Indian broadcaster NDTV first reported the satellite images.
Satellite imagery of the Chinese village of Pangda, provided by Maxar Technologies. The firm claims the village was built on the Bhutanese side of a disputed border with China.


Satellite imagery of the Chinese village of Pangda, provided by Maxar Technologies. The firm claims the village was built on the Bhutanese side of a disputed border with China.
A thin strip of land bordering all three countries, the Doklam area is claimed by both China and Bhutan, but it is also strategically important to India, because of its proximity to the Siliguri Corridor, a vital artery between New Delhi and its north eastern states.
"The Siliguri Corridor is strategically important and highly sensitive territory, as it remains the only bridge between the eight north-eastern states of India and the rest of the country," analyst Syed Fazl-e-Haider wrote earlier this year in an article published by Australian think tank, The Lowy Institute . "By an advance of just 130 kilometers (80 miles), the Chinese military could cut off Bhutan, west Bengal and the north-eastern states of India. About 50 million people in north-east India would be separated from the country."
In an article in the state-run Global Times newspaper Monday, Chinese experts were quoted refuting Maxar's claims and reports in Indian media that a village had been built in Bhutanese territory.
Just where the two countries draw their borders is highly disputed, however. The 2017 stand-off was sparked after Bhutan accused China of constructing a road inside its territory in "direct violation" of treaty obligations. China, which does not have formal diplomatic relations with Bhutan, denied the accusation, contending that the area is part of Chinese territory.
Bhutan is traditionally a strong ally of India's, relying on Delhi to provide training for its armed forces and cooperating closely with India on foreign policy. That appears to be shifting, however, particularly as the rivalry between Beijing and Delhi heats up.
Earlier this year, India and China engaged in a bloody clash along another disputed border in the Himalayas which left at least 20 soldiers dead, the worst conflict between the two countries since they fought a war over the same territory in 1962.
While both countries agreed to deescalate, Maxar Technologies' satellite imagery has shown that China continues to reinforce its position along the border with India, though further construction is unlikely at this time of year due to the harsh winter conditions high in the Himalayas.
A wide view of the disputed Doklam area provided by Maxar Technologies.


A wide view of the disputed Doklam area provided by Maxar Technologies.
The continued gradual reinforcement of positions, and angrily rebuffed allegations of encroachment, has echoes of Beijing's behavior in the South China Sea, where it has built up and militarized islets, reefs and islands, giving it effective control of huge swaths of the disputed region, a hugely important fishing and shipping area over which sovereignty is claimed in part or whole by six other governments.
"They're asserting their claim so they're creating the facts on the ground so there's the village, which is part of a larger policy," said Manoj Joshi, a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, a New Delhi-based think tank. "After (2017), they realized, just like the Indian side, their border areas are very thinly populated so it becomes very difficult to patrol the area. Now, by creating these facts on the ground, by creating this village, you can say it was always there. In the style of the Chinese, you create the facts on ground and then you say it's always been the case."
"I think (Bhutan has) figured that we'll live with it and not make a noise and just look the other way," Joshi said, adding that without its neighbor complaining, there is little Delhi can do.
"As the crow flies, this point is over 11 kilometers from the Indian position so there's nothing India can do unless Bhutan makes a public call for help. If you look at the Indo-Bhutanese Treaty, there's no explicit defense clause. So, essentially the Bhutanese live with it, we look the other way and the Chinese create the facts on the ground."
In particular, the rather tenuous nature of Pangda Village is reminiscent of the initial bases built on sandbars and tiny islets in the disputed waters. The high Himalayas are a hostile environment at the best of times, but as Nathan Ruser, an analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, the new village appears built more for territorial bragging rights than longevity.
"The high resolution imagery also shows how precarious of a village it is, being constructed on what is essentially a sandbank in the middle of a mountain river valley (where snowmelt and high cliffs make water flow unpredictable and flash floods common)," Ruser wrote on Twitter in response to the new imagery. "To combat this Chinese engineers have constructed a small retaining wall, I assume designed to keep any flood water out of the village. I'm not sure I'd trust it when the only way in and out is a road that would get flooded before the village."
Read an article by a veteran that threats to chicken neck via doklam are exaggerated.

We have the area locked down.

Then there is the jampheri ridge from which PLA would be able to observe chicken neck , but we are positioned right next to the ridge and new village and road is down in the valley. I Dont see how they can push from there upto ridge unless we allow them to.

Bigger issue is China putting pressure on Bhutan until Bhutan folds and starts diplomatic relations with China.
 

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Why do we forget that Virus has a bearing on the whole affair. The longer the virus lasts the farther will be the start of chinese recovery and more will be the Chinese instability. The Virus has shown no signs of abating nor is it amenable to CCP dictations. There is no doubt that the Virus has affected democracies more than China. However, democracies have learned to live with it, reopen their economies, start their path to progress to the new normal despite the Virus. China, on the other hand has done only one thing. Shut down drastically at the hint of an outbreak. The people and the government do not know how to exist with it. The new normal for China is a draconian shut down every time the virus makes its presence felt. Some part of the Chinese jigsaw will always be shut hereafter and its recovery will always be incomplete. The virus from Wuhan seems to be having the last laugh–it has put its master, China, both in quarantine and embarrassment .
 

johnq

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Read an article by a veteran that threats to chicken neck via doklam are exaggerated.

We have the area locked down.

Then there is the jampheri ridge from which PLA would be able to observe chicken neck , but we are positioned right next to the ridge and new village and road is down in the valley. I Dont see how they can push from there upto ridge unless we allow them to.

Bigger issue is China putting pressure on Bhutan until Bhutan folds and starts diplomatic relations with China.
I would also add that it is better and easier to resolve the problem when it is small, rather than letting the problem grow. If you wait, the PLA will eventually reinforce their positions (and increase the area of occupation in Bhutan) to such a degree that getting them out will become harder. The same thing has been happening in Ladakh and other sectors. If India had stopped the PLA in its tracks in the early stages in Ladakh, the problem would not have grown to where it is now.

The only thing stopping India are the government bureaucrats/politicians who are dedicated to the belief of "Can't do it." Then they come up with all kinds of excuses to justify this "Can't do it," such as "It's not that big of a deal, so why bother." I think some limited service in the Indian army should be a mandatory pre-requisite for all government positions, to erase this "Can't do it" attitude.
China may have screwed up in a lot of things, but making army service mandatory is one thing they have gotten right. It erases this "Can't do it" attitude, and makes their "common man" more driven, even if they are brainwashed imbeciles no better than the religious fanatics of pakiland.
 

Cheran

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Sorry for going OT, but is anyone else observing lots of ads in DFI?

I was not seeing them earlier.
 

shade

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Sorry for going OT, but is anyone else observing lots of ads in DFI?

I was not seeing them earlier.
I have seen many on mobile, over 9000 ketto ads mainly.
There are also ads of some e-Jyotishi/Astrologer and most ironically of some “convert to christianity” Protestant website

Boogle algorithms tagged me as a Viraat Hindu i guess :/ , so hence “targeted” ads
 
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