India-China 2020 Border conflict

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shashank Nayak

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
5,153
Likes
17,261
Country flag

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,165
Likes
4,352
USSR has been sugar daddy for China since long. China reverse-engineered their machines and exported them, our friend USSR/Russia didn't stop them. What our friend USSR/Russia provided us in the name of ToT for various machines. You failed to see that there is no term exists like friend in political-economic matters. Be it USA or Russia or any other country, they are just fulfilling their economic interests and for this they are coupling with other countries. Koi jai-Veeru nahi hota is level par.
While it's true that China has been a customer of Russian weapons, it's also true that everything Russia has sold to China so far has been severely downgraded in terms of technology. Ask anyone "in the know," and they will tell you the same thing.
Russia sells better technology to India precisely because India respects IP laws, and that is also why Russia has partnered with India in projects like Brahmos, as well as secretly helped in nuclear submarine technology. A lot more goes on behind the scenes with Russia and India than is known to the public. Don't go by what is published in media, often the writers have their own agendas.
 
Last edited:

ataru09

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
662
Likes
2,780
Country flag
There is a lot of talk about getting big expensive weapon systems from the US. I am more interested in what the US can offer for making hardened bunkers, permanent defence structures, bases, etc. that can offer protection for Indian soldiers from the cold winter weather of Ladakh as well as offer protection from weapons like artillery and rockets. Same for winter clothing/armour. And if the US can offer these at discount rates.
We should probably just vacate Ladakh if we need to go to US with a begging bowl for fucking clothes and buildings. Goddamn.
 

bajiraopeshwa

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
177
Likes
830
Country flag
Russia milked because we failed. Simple. Why we failed? I think its pretty clear by now. Keeping the politics aside its mainly because we did not have a business friendly environment and did not invest enough in manufacturing, science and technology, particularly in the military domain. No need to discuss. Having said that, lets keep in mind the following:

1> During the Cold War we had much to gain from both the USSR and the USA. We used that reasonably well to our advantage, even though we leaned more towards the USSR primarily for military reasons. NAM had served us good in that regard.
2> No Russian company makes anything near to what the Americans make across the spectrum of industries (commercial goods and technologies at least). Russia has no Intel, AMD, Boeing, Google, Apple, Facebook, Ford, GM, etc. Nothing to gain for us from Russians here. Whereas these companies which work in India and which employ Indians are certainly of value. Note that the Bangalore/ Hyderabad startup ecosystem that has come up now is following the US path, and good engineering products come out of these companies because of the US influence. Note that military technologies are intertwined with the products of such companies. Folks who work in these companies contribute to similar Indian companies using the experience they gain there. And this helps India.
3> The Russians have certainly shared with us precious technology and military hardware based on which we are now in the launchpad for our own MIC. Don't believe it? Well our naval platforms, ballistic missiles, nuke subs, cruise missiles, and certain aircraft technologies have Russian foundations. We should leverage our relationship here to take things further.
4> Given Russia's small population size and small economy, volume of trade will be limited. Hence its difficult for us to expect that Russia will be a giant trading partner for us (as far as export of Indian goods is concerned.) Also note that we don't make high value finished goods that much (And certainly not of Indian brands at least)
5> China makes a ton of high end finished goods, and is a major source of money that Russia can tap into. Hence the cosiness. Having said that there is reason to believe that there are iron fists under the velvet gloves. Expansionist CCP wants the Russian Far East, and the day they believe they have the military advantage over Russia in this regard they will make their move. It also doesn't help that the Chinese do whatever they can to steal Russian military tech and then undercut them in the global arms market. The Russians are vocally unhappy about it. Its similar to what the Chinese did to foreign high speed train makers. Took their tech then threw them out. All said and done I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians and the Chinese have an armed conflict a decade or two down the line.
6> There has to be only one top dog in Asia, and that must be India for the greater good of mankind. The CCP must lose. Whether we like it or not, we are locked into a conflict with China, and a large kinetic action will happen at some point in the future. They want our land, and defang us permanently. India is China's biggest impediment in Asia, and in the eyes of the CCP, must be put in its place. They also want to topple the US from its position as the world's premier country. Indian and US interests very sharply converge to the defeat of CCP. In that regard, any benefit we can draw from the Americans is to our advantage. But then that will come with costs and concessions. (Why? Because we lack the tech. Simple. Economic muscle power will be built with time, but tech takes a lot of blood sweat and tears) And the benefits will help us in dealing with the eventual big armed clash with the CCP.
7> What can we get from the US? a> Great military hardware, and some technologies that we need and can get after hard negotiations. b> Intel on Chinese. c> Geospatial data for accurate targeting and navigation. d> Manufacturing of high end goods by American companies in India. This will make its way to our companies as well. e> Better access of US markets for Indian goods. However, any frontline platform whose absence can cripple us and that can first come under the hammer of sanctions has to be avoided. Right now the most vulnerable here is the P8. Hence fighter jets should be avoided from the US. Having said that, an alliance here is of help, as long as its on mutually acceptable terms.
8> What can we get from Russia? a> Military hardware and technologies including knowhow and know why for those cases where tech is completely absent in house and no one else will share. Russians need cash, and we have it. As long as we negotiate right this should be doable. b> Assistance in getting the wheels of our MIC to roll. Only Russia can help us here. No other country can help as much as they can. For cash of course. c> Tabs on the Chinese (at a later point in time when Sino-Russian relations worsen.).

Overall, things look good for us. At this point, an alliance with the US is in our interest and if carefully leveraged will help us by leaps and bounds.
This is a good analysis.

Our economy will keep growing and will always be large enough to hold the interest of Russia. Also Russia has given us lot of critical tech which others have not.

We should not play the non-aligned game. We should align with everyone who benefits us and upholds our interests. The alliance with US has definitely helped us in Ladakh - without US intelligence and their heavy lift aircraft/helis, we would have been in a delicate position.

China had an opportunity to get on the right side of India. It did not do so and supported a terrorist nation like Pakistan. Now the window of good relations with India has closed for the Chinese and will not likely open till China becomes a democratic nation. For all their Sun Tzu logic, they are a very tactical nation with the strategic sense of a school bully. And they will pay for this at some point.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,165
Likes
4,352
We should probably just vacate Ladakh if we need to go to US with a begging bowl for fucking clothes and buildings. Goddamn.
You misunderstand me. I was speaking more in terms of if they have something better to offer in terms of materials technology for protection from weather as well as artillery shells, bombs and missiles. Obviously India already has alternatives.
 

Rajaraja Chola

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
756
Likes
2,371
Country flag
I will like to point to a different perspective.

US and Russia - enemy
US and China - enemy
so here enemy of enemy is my friend.

India and China - enemy

due to their enmity with US, Rus and China are bound to come closer and eventually form a military alliance. for that reason Rus will never support us in any conflict with China and it's proved in 1962 and this time.

just think, when ever we were/are going little bit closer to US, there were some chances of Rus mil equipment transfer to Pak.
being a follower of NAM if we be little bit closer to US then it's not a threat to Rus. then why that kind of situation used to arise?
I think, the reason is they are actually trying to deny US-India friendship at any cost. and we've to come out of that trap at any cost.

Admiral Gorshkov saga, this conflict, their declaration of possibility of future military alliance with China etc aren't hinting any kind of friendship.

it's WWIII prelude (be it hot or cold) and they will be on the other side. so definitely there will be shortage of spare parts.
we won't be able to maintain equilibrium in this balancing game by appeasement or any kind of weapon buying. everybody will have their own compulsion and we'd/we've to realise that.

I'm very sorry but this is the present situation as par my understanding.
Why should Russia support us? We are a nation of 1.4 focking Billion. If we can't stand by ourselves then we deserve to loose. China making an enemy out of US is of their own making and US corporations greed of profits. If XI hadn't come in they would have been on even friendlier terms than they are now. If they sign a trade deal, in 5 years all this hostility would be forgotten. Though I doubt US armed forces would love to use China to milk Congress.

Indians naturally immigrated to the US and the west and our diaspora has worked hard over 3 decades to bring India closer to the west. What diaspora we have in Russia? Russians didn't encourage immigration too. What are big Russian corporations? I repeat again. India getting closer to US is to leverage her economic potential with the US. Russia offered us nothing on the economic side. Even now secret Black projects are going on with Russian help. And that is cos Putin is clever. He needs an India to offset an China which can threaten Russia in the future.

Every defence project had issues. Scorpene was delayed by 7-8 years. Where was your anger then? Dassault after agreeing to RFP refused to take care of Quality Control of HAL after they were declared L1. Ideally they should have blacklisted. Even now it's Russia and Israel who had worked overtime to send us their spares. It was reported some Russian system were also deployed in LAC which they sent after the standoff began.

But the relationship will change. In 10 years they will start supplying Pakistan. India can't do anything except to guard itself with her own developed products. India US relationship is not friendship. It's an transactional relationship. Only Bhutan is our friend. This time US will make sure they do not make the mistake they make with China 30 years back so they will make sure we are not prosperous but not too poor too. They won't definitely love an powerful India. They will also cybersnoop almost everything. They did it even when we didn't use their equipments 😂 Now it's very easy. We have to be wary of US too.
 

Rajaraja Chola

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
756
Likes
2,371
Country flag
USSR has been sugar daddy for China since long. China reverse-engineered their machines and exported them, our friend USSR/Russia didn't stop them. What our friend USSR/Russia provided us in the name of ToT for various machines. You failed to see that there is no term exists like friend in political-economic matters. Be it USA or Russia or any other country, they are just fulfilling their economic interests and for this they are coupling with other countries. Koi jai-Veeru nahi hota is level par.
I never used the term friendship. I said they did help us when in time of our need. It's not the job of Russia to help our defence industry. They are sellers and they would love to have us as their clients'.
Russia did help in our strategic projects. Be it Nuclear reactors, Nuke subs, missiles, etc. Indian PSU failed to do reverse engineer and learn. Not their fault. It's ours.
 

shade

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
14,301
Likes
87,024
Country flag
I never used the term friendship. I said they did help us when in time of our need. It's not the job of Russia to help our defence industry. They are sellers and they would love to have us as their clients'.
Russia did help in our strategic projects. Be it Nuclear reactors, Nuke subs, missiles, etc. Indian PSU failed to do reverse engineer and learn. Not their fault. It's ours.
They were not ordered to lol.
RE programs are not done by DPSUs of their own accord, their mai-baap govt orders them and facilitates them to.
 

ataru09

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
662
Likes
2,780
Country flag
You misunderstand me. I was speaking more in terms of if they have something better to offer in terms of materials technology for protection from weather as well as artillery shells, bombs and missiles. Obviously India already has alternatives.
I understand but none of what you mentioned is space age technology. You can walk into a store and buy cold weather gear that would work at that weather and a lot of them are made in India. Similarly bunkers are not hard to make. I can't see why we need to go to US and beg for discounts on this kind of stuff.

It's not like they are making stealth 8th generation jackets are they?

Unfortunately our procurement prefers foreign made equipment anyway. But that's another story.
 

Haldilal

लड़ते लड़ते जीना है, लड़ते लड़ते मरना है
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2020
Messages
29,517
Likes
113,409
Country flag
I understand but none of what you mentioned is space age technology. You can walk into a store and buy cold weather gear that would work at that weather and a lot of them are made in India. Similarly bunkers are not hard to make. I can't see why we need to go to US and beg for discounts on this kind of stuff.

It's not like they are making stealth 8th generation jackets are they?

Unfortunately our procurement prefers foreign made equipment anyway. But that's another story.
The OFB tents are useless ask @Bhadra about it. Unless private industry are given the contract with the R&D fundings.
 

ataru09

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
662
Likes
2,780
Country flag
The OFB tents are useless ask @Bhadra about it. Unless private industry are given the contract with the R&D fundings.
Did not mention OFB anywhere in my post. OFB are incompetent morons.

OFB is not making clothing in India that is exported. The private companies are. And my post was targeted at the government and military failing to leverage these industries for defence production.
 
Last edited:

Haldilal

लड़ते लड़ते जीना है, लड़ते लड़ते मरना है
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2020
Messages
29,517
Likes
113,409
Country flag
Did not mention OFB anywhere in my post. OFB are incompetent morons.
I was talking about our current tents that are the manufactured by the OFB.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,165
Likes
4,352
I understand but none of what you mentioned is space age technology. You can walk into a store and buy cold weather gear that would work at that weather and a lot of them are made in India. Similarly bunkers are not hard to make. I can't see why we need to go to US and beg for discounts on this kind of stuff.

It's not like they are making stealth 8th generation jackets are they?

Unfortunately our procurement prefers foreign made equipment anyway. But that's another story.
I was thinking more along the lines of usage of lightweight composites in clothing that would protect soldiers from shrapnel and cold weather simultaneously, and composites used in making protected lightweight bunkers or other defence structures that are easier to transport. India can get these from Europe also, but may be able to get them cheaper from US because of larger volume of production, and especially if US offers a discount.
 

Haldilal

लड़ते लड़ते जीना है, लड़ते लड़ते मरना है
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2020
Messages
29,517
Likes
113,409
Country flag
What made you think I was interested in what shit the OFB has currently produced?
Ya'll Nibbiars Because bhadra was talking about it before not just limited to your post
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top