India-China 2020 Border conflict

FalconSlayers

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Remember how they said India banning TikTok was never going to happen? Well...


Parliament is so angry with Twitter, especially its douchebag CEO, that it may try to show him his place.
Ban Twitter, join Squeaks Media!
 

ezsasa

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Japan long avoided transferring explicitly military platforms to other countries. But it has now signed an equipment transfer deal with Vietnam, has inked similar agreements with Malaysia and Philippines, and is negotiating with Indonesia and Thailand.

 

Rajaraja Chola

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The Russians milked us tremendously. If someone labels them as India's friend, he doesn't understand politics. Russians did require a country for balancing American presence in Pakistan so they sold us the weapons and helped in 71 war. And doing so, they also succeeded in influencing our policies. They sold the weapons to China too and what China did, the Chinese reverse-engineered them and start their own manufacturing at a large scale. The people who are labelling any weapon/instrument produced by China as scrap should take a note that quantity matters and each and every production by Chinese is NOT scrap. They have established themselves as a manufacturing hub, they are getting huge tenders around the globe.
The Soviets of 70's are different from the Russians of 20's just like India is different than those times. I would say you were shamefully ungrateful for their help they had provided no matter how they are behaving now. Pretty much like Lungis of BD.
Russia has helped us in Nuke subs and I challenge you to find one country which would help us.

India had to get out of Russian grasp cos our economic potential was not being fulfilled by Russians while that was pretty much taken care of the United States. Our Bilateral trade to US is 80B$. India has a large population to feed and take out of poverty. It's the American Corporations that can help us achieve those milestones. And that is for that reason, India had to cosy up to Americans to leverage economic partnership into strategic ones. Which will beneficial to India in longer term than the Russians. It's an strategic calculas. If Indian PSU aren't capable of reverse engineering stuff and make it better than it's not our fault.

Russian movement towards China is also the same economic potential I mentioned above. Their trade is 80B while ours is 10B. Who will they prefer if they want to be globally relevant? So stock up this attitude. This is an international forum.
 

Synergy

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The Soviets of 70's are different from the Russians of 20's just like India is different than those times. I would say you were shamefully ungrateful for their help they had provided no matter how they are behaving now. Pretty much like Lungis of BD.
Russia has helped us in Nuke subs and I challenge you to find one country which would help us.

India had to get out of Russian grasp cos our economic potential was not being fulfilled by Russians while that was pretty much taken care of the United States. Our Bilateral trade to US is 80B$. India has a large population to feed and take out of poverty. It's the American Corporations that can help us achieve those milestones. And that is for that reason, India had to cosy up to Americans to leverage economic partnership into strategic ones. Which will beneficial to India in longer term than the Russians. It's an strategic calculas. If Indian PSU aren't capable of reverse engineering stuff and make it better than it's not our fault.

Russian movement towards China is also the same economic potential I mentioned above. Their trade is 80B while ours is 10B. Who will they prefer if they want to be globally relevant? So stock up this attitude. This is an international forum.

I will like to point to a different perspective.

US and Russia - enemy
US and China - enemy
so here enemy of enemy is my friend.

India and China - enemy

due to their enmity with US, Rus and China are bound to come closer and eventually form a military alliance. for that reason Rus will never support us in any conflict with China and it's proved in 1962 and this time.

just think, when ever we were/are going little bit closer to US, there were some chances of Rus mil equipment transfer to Pak.
being a follower of NAM if we be little bit closer to US then it's not a threat to Rus. then why that kind of situation used to arise?
I think, the reason is they are actually trying to deny US-India friendship at any cost. and we've to come out of that trap at any cost.

Admiral Gorshkov saga, this conflict, their declaration of possibility of future military alliance with China etc aren't hinting any kind of friendship.

it's WWIII prelude (be it hot or cold) and they will be on the other side. so definitely there will be shortage of spare parts.
we won't be able to maintain equilibrium in this balancing game by appeasement or any kind of weapon buying. everybody will have their own compulsion and we'd/we've to realise that.

I'm very sorry but this is the present situation as par my understanding.
 

Destrius

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I don't understand why there is even a conversation about ungratefulness or friends.

Learn from America.
The Thirteen colonies attacked France in 1756 and Britain went in debt saving them. Then they allied with France to gain independence. Then they attacked France to trade with Britain and then again attacked Britain to try to take Canada. Then they conquered half of Mexico.

Now France, Britain, and Mexico are good friends/vassals of America.

Moral of the story: There are no friends and if someone helped you yesterday, backstab them tomorrow. The only things that matter are power, mutual interests, common enemy, and quid pro quo.
 

bajiraopeshwa

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Dharma is a very heavy concept. We need an illustrative idea which does not fall or implodes due to it's own weight. Origins of the word doesn't matter anymore. This stiffness has to go on organizational level.
What is heavy about the concept of Dharma ? It has been around the Indian continent for 6000-7000 years and lots of people understand it. If you dont find a single Hindu terrorist in the world today or Hindus taking up guns and randomly shooting at others, it is because of Dharma and the belief in Karma.

Whether you call it Dharma or Hinduism, the fact is that it has sustained and survived more fierce competition.
Buddhism and Jainism were far bigger competitors at the intellectual level which the Abrahamic religions are not. Yet they could not sustain against Hinduism. Hinduism has deep roots and innate strengths.

The trouble India faced in the past was not because of Hinduism but because the 500-600 provinces were not unified.
 

daya

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The Soviets of 70's are different from the Russians of 20's just like India is different than those times. I would say you were shamefully ungrateful for their help they had provided no matter how they are behaving now. Pretty much like Lungis of BD.
Russia has helped us in Nuke subs and I challenge you to find one country which would help us.

India had to get out of Russian grasp cos our economic potential was not being fulfilled by Russians while that was pretty much taken care of the United States. Our Bilateral trade to US is 80B$. India has a large population to feed and take out of poverty. It's the American Corporations that can help us achieve those milestones. And that is for that reason, India had to cosy up to Americans to leverage economic partnership into strategic ones. Which will beneficial to India in longer term than the Russians. It's an strategic calculas. If Indian PSU aren't capable of reverse engineering stuff and make it better than it's not our fault.

Russian movement towards China is also the same economic potential I mentioned above. Their trade is 80B while ours is 10B. Who will they prefer if they want to be globally relevant? So stock up this attitude. This is an international forum.
USSR has been sugar daddy for China since long. China reverse-engineered their machines and exported them, our friend USSR/Russia didn't stop them. What our friend USSR/Russia provided us in the name of ToT for various machines. You failed to see that there is no term exists like friend in political-economic matters. Be it USA or Russia or any other country, they are just fulfilling their economic interests and for this they are coupling with other countries. Koi jai-Veeru nahi hota is level par.
 

Suhaldev

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I don't understand why there is even a conversation about ungratefulness or friends.

Learn from America.
The Thirteen colonies attacked France in 1756 and Britain went in debt saving them. Then they allied with France to gain independence. Then they attacked France to trade with Britain and then again attacked Britain to try to take Canada. Then they conquered half of Mexico.

Now France, Britain, and Mexico are good friends/vassals of America.

Moral of the story: There are no friends and if someone helped you yesterday, backstab them tomorrow. The only things that matter are power, mutual interests, common enemy, and quid pro quo.
There are no permanent friends in geo politics, it all about common interests.
 

Suhaldev

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That was 2006 under UPA.




This is 2020. We are changing for good.
 

Trololo

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The Soviets of 70's are different from the Russians of 20's just like India is different than those times. I would say you were shamefully ungrateful for their help they had provided no matter how they are behaving now. Pretty much like Lungis of BD.
Russia has helped us in Nuke subs and I challenge you to find one country which would help us.

India had to get out of Russian grasp cos our economic potential was not being fulfilled by Russians while that was pretty much taken care of the United States. Our Bilateral trade to US is 80B$. India has a large population to feed and take out of poverty. It's the American Corporations that can help us achieve those milestones. And that is for that reason, India had to cosy up to Americans to leverage economic partnership into strategic ones. Which will beneficial to India in longer term than the Russians. It's an strategic calculas. If Indian PSU aren't capable of reverse engineering stuff and make it better than it's not our fault.

Russian movement towards China is also the same economic potential I mentioned above. Their trade is 80B while ours is 10B. Who will they prefer if they want to be globally relevant? So stock up this attitude. This is an international forum.
Russia milked because we failed. Simple. Why we failed? I think its pretty clear by now. Keeping the politics aside its mainly because we did not have a business friendly environment and did not invest enough in manufacturing, science and technology, particularly in the military domain. No need to discuss. Having said that, lets keep in mind the following:

1> During the Cold War we had much to gain from both the USSR and the USA. We used that reasonably well to our advantage, even though we leaned more towards the USSR primarily for military reasons. NAM had served us good in that regard.
2> No Russian company makes anything near to what the Americans make across the spectrum of industries (commercial goods and technologies at least). Russia has no Intel, AMD, Boeing, Google, Apple, Facebook, Ford, GM, etc. Nothing to gain for us from Russians here. Whereas these companies which work in India and which employ Indians are certainly of value. Note that the Bangalore/ Hyderabad startup ecosystem that has come up now is following the US path, and good engineering products come out of these companies because of the US influence. Note that military technologies are intertwined with the products of such companies. Folks who work in these companies contribute to similar Indian companies using the experience they gain there. And this helps India.
3> The Russians have certainly shared with us precious technology and military hardware based on which we are now in the launchpad for our own MIC. Don't believe it? Well our naval platforms, ballistic missiles, nuke subs, cruise missiles, and certain aircraft technologies have Russian foundations. We should leverage our relationship here to take things further.
4> Given Russia's small population size and small economy, volume of trade will be limited. Hence its difficult for us to expect that Russia will be a giant trading partner for us (as far as export of Indian goods is concerned.) Also note that we don't make high value finished goods that much (And certainly not of Indian brands at least)
5> China makes a ton of high end finished goods, and is a major source of money that Russia can tap into. Hence the cosiness. Having said that there is reason to believe that there are iron fists under the velvet gloves. Expansionist CCP wants the Russian Far East, and the day they believe they have the military advantage over Russia in this regard they will make their move. It also doesn't help that the Chinese do whatever they can to steal Russian military tech and then undercut them in the global arms market. The Russians are vocally unhappy about it. Its similar to what the Chinese did to foreign high speed train makers. Took their tech then threw them out. All said and done I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians and the Chinese have an armed conflict a decade or two down the line.
6> There has to be only one top dog in Asia, and that must be India for the greater good of mankind. The CCP must lose. Whether we like it or not, we are locked into a conflict with China, and a large kinetic action will happen at some point in the future. They want our land, and defang us permanently. India is China's biggest impediment in Asia, and in the eyes of the CCP, must be put in its place. They also want to topple the US from its position as the world's premier country. Indian and US interests very sharply converge to the defeat of CCP. In that regard, any benefit we can draw from the Americans is to our advantage. But then that will come with costs and concessions. (Why? Because we lack the tech. Simple. Economic muscle power will be built with time, but tech takes a lot of blood sweat and tears) And the benefits will help us in dealing with the eventual big armed clash with the CCP.
7> What can we get from the US? a> Great military hardware, and some technologies that we need and can get after hard negotiations. b> Intel on Chinese. c> Geospatial data for accurate targeting and navigation. d> Manufacturing of high end goods by American companies in India. This will make its way to our companies as well. e> Better access of US markets for Indian goods. However, any frontline platform whose absence can cripple us and that can first come under the hammer of sanctions has to be avoided. Right now the most vulnerable here is the P8. Hence fighter jets should be avoided from the US. Having said that, an alliance here is of help, as long as its on mutually acceptable terms.
8> What can we get from Russia? a> Military hardware and technologies including knowhow and know why for those cases where tech is completely absent in house and no one else will share. Russians need cash, and we have it. As long as we negotiate right this should be doable. b> Assistance in getting the wheels of our MIC to roll. Only Russia can help us here. No other country can help as much as they can. For cash of course. c> Tabs on the Chinese (at a later point in time when Sino-Russian relations worsen.).

Overall, things look good for us. At this point, an alliance with the US is in our interest and if carefully leveraged will help us by leaps and bounds.
 

johnq

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There is a lot of talk about getting big expensive weapon systems from the US. I am more interested in what the US can offer for making hardened bunkers, permanent defence structures, bases, etc. that can offer protection for Indian soldiers from the cold winter weather of Ladakh as well as offer protection from weapons like artillery and rockets. Same for winter clothing/armour. And if the US can offer these at discount rates.
 

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