India-China 2020 Border conflict

[omaebakabaka]

Would be fun if they tried that near A&N area or near Hawaii or California coasts.

Unfortunately odds are we may be disappointed with our own restraint and may take it to UN or some cluster fuck organization.

 

[shade]

Like that Canadian lady from Chatham House in the linked video stated that while security agencies and armed forces in democratic countries were well aware of the Chinese threat, they were overruled in the public discourse by the business lobbies in those countries which have very strong pro China links. And the Chinese have bought influence in every single democratic country via making inroads into the ruling political class e.g. the current Canadian foreign minister, in his prior job was in the private sector and was in London as the head of a company. Being a foreigner in London, he had difficulty in getting a mortgage loan for his house. All the big British banks refused him a mortgage, but Bank of China's London branch gave him a mortgage and when he was appointed the foreign minister of Canada a few months ago, he still had and still has an outstanding of 1.2 million dollars on that loan!! So the Chinese intelligence apparatus works closely with Chinese companies and banks in their overseas operations, identifying potentially important persons who doing favors for them with the hope of expecting a payback later. This case came to light because as a minister he had to declare all his assets and liabilities. Imagine, how much influence the Chinese have bought with movers and shakers in Governments and industry around the world. Thankfully now because of Covid and the blatant aggression in Ladakh, Taiwan and the South China sea islands the voices of security agencies and armed forces of democracies around the world are being heard.

Heard, but will never be acted upon.
In Western bloc Business dalals will prevent action, like in US the automaker companies are suing Trump/Govt for putting tarrifs on Chinese imports.

Automakers sue US government over tariffs on Chinese imports - ET Auto

Major automakers Tesla, Volvo, Ford and Mercedes-Benz have sued the US government over tariffs on Chinese goods, demanding customs duties paid on imports be returned, with interest.

auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com

India specifically has mainly a dhoti shivering problem of the 10 foot tall Chinaman, and the business dalals doing their usual.

SEAsia/Australia are too small dependent on import-export with China, and have joke armed forces so there it is a combination of dhoti shivering and business based dalali.

In other sold out countries like every other African country, Lanka, Nepal, Al-Jhaatistan, Kangladesh etc the ruling elite enjoys benefits from the Chinese presence, while the populace suffers, and the rage of this populace is then directed towards India in case of our "neighbors" or towards other tribes in case of African countries

 

[bajiraopeshwa]

Again that cry of joy over Outsourcing Security of India....

Ye Batao tum kya karoge ??

If we wanted to outsource security, we would have signed a deal with the US. We have not done that.

To have the edge over China you need both quantity and quality. Given where we are in our development cycle, our weapons may not be qualitatively much better than the Chinese. So imports will continue for some time. But it does not equate to outsourcing security.

Let us say you need 20 C17 like planes. Are you going to start a program for that ? No. Also lets face it, the US is years ahead of the rest in military tech. So it is okay to buy some weapons from them for the qualitative edge.

So while it would be good to produce everything ourselves, we are not yet there

 

[ezsasa]

I have this assumption since May that western world does not think India China will actually go to war on Tibet Border. Not because somebody said it explicitly, but rather because of the absence of serious debate on this topic beyond a few individual voices.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

Things are changing even at UPSC level, lateral entry in top GOI jobs and new recruites getting centeal deployent first before someone fuk their mind with crap. But this will take time. In next 5 years there will be change in a way Babu ji works.

If i remember correctly only After 9 years of service (including 2 years of probation) one becomes eligible for Central and Inter Cadre Deputation.

 

[LDev]

Heard, but will never be acted upon.
In Western bloc Business dalals will prevent action, like in US the automaker companies are suing Trump/Govt for putting tarrifs on Chinese imports.

Automakers sue US government over tariffs on Chinese imports - ET Auto

Major automakers Tesla, Volvo, Ford and Mercedes-Benz have sued the US government over tariffs on Chinese goods, demanding customs duties paid on imports be returned, with interest.

auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com

India specifically has mainly a dhoti shivering problem of the 10 foot tall Chinaman, and the business dalals doing their usual.

SEAsia/Australia are too small dependent on import-export with China, and have joke armed forces so there it is a combination of dhoti shivering and business based dalali.

In other sold out countries like every other African country, Lanka, Nepal, Al-Jhaatistan, Kangladesh etc the ruling elite enjoys benefits from the Chinese presence, while the populace suffers, and the rage of this populace is then directed towards India in case of our "neighbors" or towards other tribes in case of African countries

The problem is even more severe than that even in the US. Elaine Chao, the US Secretary of Transportation in the Trump administration was born in Taipei and immigrated to the US. She is married to Mitch McConnell the majority Leader in the US Senate. Elaine Chao's father James and sister Angela run a huge shipping company whose major business is with China. Her sister Angela who runs the company is on the Board of Directors of Bank of China. And the family has made big campaign contributions to McConnell. It is to Trump's credit that he has taken such a hardline position on China. But he is being stymied by the establishment at every turn. Even his WeChat ban has been challenged by a court. I would say that in terms of anti China economic action, India is leading every other country by a wide margin

A Bridge to China and her family's business in the Trump Cabinet

 

[shade]

If we wanted to outsource security, we would have signed a deal with the US. We have not done that.

To have the edge over China you need both quantity and quality. Given where we are in our development cycle, our weapons may not be qualitatively much better than the Chinese. So imports will continue for some time. But it does not equate to outsourcing security.

Let us say you need 20 C17 like planes. Are you going to start a program for that ? No. Also lets face it, the US is years ahead of the rest in military tech. So it is okay to buy some weapons from them for the qualitative edge.

So while it would be good to produce everything ourselves, we are not yet there

This is being said now and will be said 50 years from now also.
People in the corridors of power do not take the need for a domestic MIC seriously, just like they don't take the possibility of war seriously.

I have this assumption since May that western world does not think India China will actually go to war on Tibet Border. Not because somebody said it explicitly, but rather because of the absence of serious debate on this topic beyond a few individual voices.

You are right, unless the Chinese do something there won't be anything from our side, as these chai biscoot sessions illustrate, Depsang and F4-F8 are Chinese now, this is the new Status Quo/LAC.

Likewise, the Western world under globalist influence deliberately downplays the Chinese threat and instead encourages domestic identity politics to keep the plebeans of the West distracted with Black vs White, LGBTQWERTY, Russia hacking elections etc.

 

[Bhadra]

There should a debate on what happens if PLA does not use Kargil tactics of sending men on foot to capture peak by peak.

What if they ignore capturing peaks, but rather focus on bombing the peaks from stand off distances. Then what happens?
==========

Mountains favour the defender.

The discussion jumps off from a terrain fact but an advanced conclusion- Mountain Favours the defender. But that is also conditional.
Let us start this way? that is what is the aim of Warfare? The aims essentially is either to Capture maximum territory or destroy maximum enemy forces to break the will of the enemy to come to terms.

How does one capture the territory? By going deep inside enemy area and capturing that area which is mountainous. To do this one needs a large force to apply and maintain that. Hence the essential issue is the operations have to be launched astride or though an axix. Road axix generally follow vallies and mountain ranges are crossed through passes. Hence mountain Warfare is essentially defense or attack on dominating heights and passes along the axis.

The destruction of enemy Forces takes place on features held by the enemy. Enemy will hold dominating features astride axix and passes to deny attackers getting into their areas. There are no avenues of maneuvers in mountains and large forces can not get behind the defences except in small measures and for a short distance. Therefore for an attacker mountain warfare is a war for dominating heights and passes along the axix.

So one can say that mountain warfare is the battle of dominating heights and passes along the valleys which provide an axis of maintenance. Under such a scenrio the mountain offers relative advantages to the defender or to those who are already there holding it.

Heights by themselves have no meaning if it is related to approaches and axix of maintenance through which enemy can bring in Vehicles or animal train to maintain and sustain his forces.

All places you have been hearing about in Ladakh such as Fingers, Gurung Hill, Magar Hill, Rechin La, Fingers, Gogra, Hot springs, Galwan and DBO are features / areas dominating major axis that lead into depth ares of Ladakh.

Otherwise, there is no dearth of heights. One does not hold a height for the sake of it being a height.


Thus mountain Warfare is the battle of defending or attacking dominating height along an axis which is generally a valley and mountain passes that allow movement across ridgelines.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I have this assumption since May that western world does not think India China will actually go to war on Tibet Border. Not because somebody said it explicitly, but rather because of the absence of serious debate on this topic beyond a few individual voices.

West is at war with itself as of now
It would be nice to get all the lands taken away from us but that would not come all of sudden mentally or physically. I think as long as we don't lose more and maintain current intention to fight in future and keep ingressing into chinese held or unmarked lands then that is a win of some kind for us. Need time to build some MIC first that is reliable and useful to truly go full offensive against ccp army.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

I have this assumption since May that western world does not think India China will actually go to war on Tibet Border. Not because somebody said it explicitly, but rather because of the absence of serious debate on this topic beyond a few individual voices.

Yep.. they know that India and China are like Akshay Khanna and Aftab shivdasani from the movie Hungama.. Tu maar na.. Tu maar na types..

 

[ezsasa]

The discussion jumps off from a terrain fact but an advanced conclusion- Mountain Favours the defender. But that is also conditional.
Let us start this way? that is what is the aim of Warfare? The aims essentially is either to Capture maximum territory or destroy maximum enemy forces to break the will of the enemy to come to terms.

How does one capture the territory? By going deep inside enemy area and capturing that area which is mountainous. To do this one needs a large force to apply and maintain that. Hence the essential issue is the operations have to be launched astride or though an axix. Road axix generally follow vallies and mountain ranges are crossed through passes. Hence mountain Warfare is essentially defense or attack on dominating heights and passes along the axis.

The destruction of enemy Forces takes place on features held by the enemy. Enemy will hold dominating features astride axix and passes to deny attackers getting into their areas. There are no avenues of maneuvers in mountains and large forces can not get behind the defences except in small measures and for a short distance. Therefore for an attacker mountain warfare is a war for dominating heights and passes along the axix.

So one can say that mountain warfare is the battle of dominating heights and passes along the valleys which provide an axis of maintenance. Under such a scenrio the mountain offers relative advantages to the defender or to those who are already there holding it.

Heights by themselves have no meaning if it is related to approaches and axix of maintenance through which enemy can bring in Vehicles or animal train to maintain and sustain his forces.

All places you have been hearing about in Ladakh such as Fingers, Gurung Hill, Magar Hill, Rechin La, Fingers, Gogra, Hot springs, Galwan and DBO are features / areas dominating major axis that lead into depth ares of Ladakh.

Otherwise, there is no dearth of heights. One does not hold a height for the sake of it being a height.


Thus mountain Warfare is the battle of defending or attacking dominating height along an axis which is generally a valley and mountain passes that allow movement across ridgelines.

Continuing with the same hypothetical scenario as before.
Does the PLA have the capability to hit at our posts on the peaks from stand off distances during the first wave?

 

[Shashank Nayak]

There should a debate on what happens if PLA does not use Kargil tactics of sending men on foot to capture peak by peak.

What if they ignore capturing peaks, but rather focus on bombing the peaks from stand off distances. Then what happens?
==========

Mountains favour the defender.

How will Chinese cruise missiles with CEP of say 10 m hit Indian soldiers on the heights holed up on the reverse slope/crest or the rear of the mountains... ?
The CJ 10 missile is coming in in the direction of the arrow in the picture below.. Do these hyped up missiles have the capability to hit Indian soldiers on the reverse crest..? I think indirect artillery fire from the chinese will have a better chance..

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

How much land did Arunachal Pradesh lose to China after 1962 war?

Arunachal shares 1,129 km border with China; however, Indian map needs verification, says MP Tapir Gao

www.eastmojo.com

Diagram for understanding fish tail 1 & 2

View attachment 60241

Area lost:-

View attachment 60242

Much more than meets the eye. Thats what i was talking about in my rant , there are other areas also near bhutan , HP AND UK BORDERS also. These babus have lost so much land and hide it from the public, and increases trade with them. More like every time they did salami slicing we gave them trade concessions . And some people here defends these babus. Yesterday it was 1 km , today its 10km tomorrow it will be 20 km.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

West is at war with itself as of now
It would be nice to get all the lands taken away from us but that would not come all of sudden mentally or physically. I think as long as we don't lose more and maintain current intention to fight in future and keep ingressing into chinese held or unmarked lands then that is a win of some kind for us. Need time to build some MIC first that is reliable and useful to truly go full offensive against ccp army.

Thats not gonna happen anytime soon. And by that time we will have internal problems.

 

[Bhadra]

There should a debate on what happens if PLA does not use Kargil tactics of sending men on foot to capture peak by peak.

It all depends on what is the relevance of a particular peak or hill feature to axix of advance and axix of maintenance which is aimed to be cleared of interference or domination in furtherance of operations. All hills that can look into or bring effective fire on axix will have to be captured and secured.

Kargil Heights were arrayed along road Zozil - Leh in a perpendicular fashion and thus all ha to cleared/captured.

If the Chinese choose not to clear the dominating heights then they can keep sitting wherever they are.

What if they ignore capturing peaks, but rather focus on bombing the peaks from stand off distances. Then what happens?

Bombing an objective brings in destruction on the objective which is partial and never total. the effect is temporary and objective have capabilities to recover and recuperate. No objective has ever been totally destroyed by firepower totally. Securing an objective means its physical capture / occupation and only boots can do that even in plains.

Mountains favor the defender.

Only if mountains are used tactically.
Mountain respect those who bow to them respectfully and use them tactically. No one walks up the mountain with his head high. The Head is the first part of the body which has to bow down in climbing up or descending down.

 

[ezsasa]

It all depends on what is the relevance of a particular peak or hill feature to axix of advance and axix of maintenance which is aimed to be cleared of interference or domination in furtherance of operations. All hills that can look into or bring effective fire on axix will have to be captured and secured.

Kargil Heights were arrayed along road Zozil - Leh in a perpendicular fashion and thus all ha to cleared/captured.

If the Chinese choose not to clear the dominating heights then they can keep sitting wherever they are.




Bombing an objective brings in destruction on the objective which is partial and never total. the effect is temporary and objective have capabilities to recover and recuperate. No objective has ever been totally destroyed by firepower totally. Securing an objective means its physical capture / occupation and only boots can do that even in plains.



Only if mountains are used tactically.
Mountain respect those who bow to them respectfully and use them tactically. No one walks up the mountain with his head high. The Head is the first part of the body which has to bow down in climbing up or descending down.

Thanks, Both the detailed replies are appreciated.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Thats not gonna happen anytime soon. And by that time we will have internal problems.

Decision makers have lot more info and more parameters to consider and if it was congress we would not have heard a peep about loss of land and would have continued. But now full army is deployed and so on. Just hope they don't relax the guard.....this is a loss of face for China and demoralizing to their image as they are unable to show the world that they are some sorta power that can squash us.

 

[Knowitall]

Latest India-China joint statement suggests New Delhi is misreading Beijing's gameplan, playing into its hands

Keeping up the pretence of talks allows China enough time to reinforce its control over newly acquired areas that are on the Indian side of LAC by creating more infrastructure, boosting logistics and building communication network.

www.firstpost.com

Facade of dialogue

Talks with Beijing are futile for China seeks a unilateral settlement of dispute on the LAC.

indianexpress.com

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

Decision makers have lot more info and more parameters to consider and if it was congress we would not have heard a peep about loss of land and would have continued. But now full army is deployed and so on. Just hope they don't relax the guard.....this is a loss of face for China and demoralizing to their image as they are unable to show the world that they are some sorta power that can squash us.

There is no hope from congress. Most of the land we lost was during congress regime. They are completely in bed with ccp . Its as simple as that. But its still a loss of land as time passes by for us . Besides once this is over , babus will force the army to reduce troops strength and the same story will repeat again. It has happened before many times. But this time there are ofcourse certain exception .

 

[Knowitall]

Thanks, Both the detailed replies are appreciated.

Is it possible to lay precision artillery fire over an area by using coordinates from a sattelite.

I have read extensively of Russians using both mini and MALE drones to locate Ukraine strongholds and lay down very precise and concentrated firepower by only using a few artillery units and the results wad very good.

In the case of china India border I feel both the environment and the lack of air superiority will prevent the Chinese from using any sort of drones. Their use might be minimal if used at all.

But is it possible for them to use their satellites?