India-China 2020 Border conflict

omaebakabaka

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Calling spade a spade is not ego, you write like a babu, if i were PM Modi, i would have hit your head to get it straight, this MEA babus are like 0.5 front of 0.5 front.
They never solved pojk issue they are messing up nepal issue and they can never solve chinki issue.
Hit your own head first and may be that will shake something out of your cranium. What does babus have to do with POK or China issue? It is a matter of political resolve, if PM decides on a tough stand then he can rule over every babu. How difficult is it to go through your dense skull? Replace your profile image with doofus or learn to offer your opinion in composed manner.....
 

bajiraopeshwa

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Getting back to the question of why China created the border issue

1. India building border infra theory - This is not a new development unless India went very close to the LAC. But Chinese would have known that a buildup on their side would invite a buildup on Indian side which would only provide more security and accelerate the infra development.

2. Teach a lesson theory - India edging closer to USA etc but this has been going on for years. Also given the formidable Himalayan barrier, there is not realistic chance of a outright Chinese win, atmost a marginal victory in a localized conflict.

3. India will not fight back theory - Doklam was a rude wakeup call for the Chinese that India was getting proactive. Also the Balakot attacks etc would have indicated that India was willing to take risks

4. Protect CPEC theory - This can be a reason but CPEC is never going to replace the sea route because of lower volumes and other inherent problems.

5. Bleed India economically theory - Possibly but China would also be spending money to keep its troops on the border. Also lots of benefits have accrued to India, especially the recognition over the world that it is the only army today standing up to China

6. Make Modi look bad theory - Use the press to defame Modi to damage him politically. Congress and their cronies were egging on a fight (which may still happen but not at the time of their choosing). But sending 3 divisions to defame someone looks crazy.

7. Make a fast land grab theory - Try to grab territory fast because of better infra on Chinese side. This seems somewhat plausible but does not explain the reluctance to retreat once that failed.

8. Prevent India from grabbing land theory - Plausible but there are doubts why India would make a land grab when battling China virus.

9. Wake up India theory - Chinese thinking that a strong India might be more amenable to cooperation and therefore just shake up Indian politicians and babus. This may be very implausible but who knows.

10. Settle boundary theory - Faced with the inevitability of Indian growth and someday taking over POK/Aksai, try to settle the boundary now in the most favorable manner. Somewhat plausible but India can wait it out here if the terms are not favorable

11. Try to keep the western front safe while China fights the USA. China is about to invade Taiwan or Taiwan is about to declare independence (which in any case will happen concurrently). The US will have to invade China. While China is fighting that war, try to prevent India advancing into Aksai and POK. This seems to be the most plausible theory to me.

Any other theories ?
 

omaebakabaka

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Getting back to the question of why China created the border issue

1. India building border infra theory - This is not a new development unless India went very close to the LAC. But Chinese would have known that a buildup on their side would invite a buildup on Indian side which would only provide more security and accelerate the infra development.

2. Teach a lesson theory - India edging closer to USA etc but this has been going on for years. Also given the formidable Himalayan barrier, there is not realistic chance of a outright Chinese win, atmost a marginal victory in a localized conflict.

3. India will not fight back theory - Doklam was a rude wakeup call for the Chinese that India was getting proactive. Also the Balakot attacks etc would have indicated that India was willing to take risks

4. Protect CPEC theory - This can be a reason but CPEC is never going to replace the sea route because of lower volumes and other inherent problems.

5. Bleed India economically theory - Possibly but China would also be spending money to keep its troops on the border. Also lots of benefits have accrued to India, especially the recognition over the world that it is the only army today standing up to China

6. Make Modi look bad theory - Use the press to defame Modi to damage him politically. Congress and their cronies were egging on a fight (which may still happen but not at the time of their choosing). But sending 3 divisions to defame someone looks crazy.

7. Make a fast land grab theory - Try to grab territory fast because of better infra on Chinese side. This seems somewhat plausible but does not explain the reluctance to retreat once that failed.

8. Prevent India from grabbing land theory - Plausible but there are doubts why India would make a land grab when battling China virus.

9. Wake up India theory - Chinese thinking that a strong India might be more amenable to cooperation and therefore just shake up Indian politicians and babus. This may be very implausible but who knows.

10. Settle boundary theory - Faced with the inevitability of Indian growth and someday taking over POK/Aksai, try to settle the boundary now in the most favorable manner. Somewhat plausible but India can wait it out here if the terms are not favorable

11. Try to keep the western front safe while China fights the USA. China is about to invade Taiwan or Taiwan is about to declare independence (which in any case will happen concurrently). The US will have to invade China. While China is fighting that war, try to prevent India advancing into Aksai and POK. This seems to be the most plausible theory to me.

Any other theories ?
Just a miscalculation or start an indirect attack via Pakistan to create a 2 front scenario and grab DBO, demcok and some NE areas. Unlikely something will happen around Taiwan anytime soon....China can't win with Taiwan as of now and into the near future. Scare India and get influence in Nepal, BD and SL and Myanmar....who knows
 

MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00

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What is MSS?
Chinese external intelligence agency like the Indian RAW and US CIA but functions on similar lines to the Soviet KGB. There ultimate loyalty is too to the party itself not the state. They have many internal Divisons or Directorates which range from foreign intelligence to coordinating secret police activities inside the state itself. MSS is not a well known agency. They are never in the limelight always hiding in the darkness. They are responsible for number of hacking attempts against multiple countries around the world in order to steal technology and secrets.
 

bajiraopeshwa

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Just a miscalculation or start an indirect attack via Pakistan to create a 2 front scenario and grab DBO, demcok and some NE areas. Unlikely something will happen around Taiwan anytime soon....China can't win with Taiwan as of now and into the near future. Scare India and get influence in Nepal, BD and SL and Myanmar....who knows
Possible but the surprise element is gone and now any land taking will require lots of blood. India has had time to prepare and dig in (unlike in 1962). Even holding on to Aksai and Tibet will not be feasible in the long run when Indian economy inches closer to Chinese economy in PPP. Also the repurcussion of a localized defeat are much higher for the Chinese.

Already it appears China has lost too much in this standoff. Billions of dollars wiped out ($50 billion for just Bytedance by some estimates), lost a major growing economy for your business, lost credibility as a super power etc. Why dont they cut their losses and quit ?
 

MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00

VICTORIOUM AUT MORS
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What’s going on here.. are these Galwan KIAs. Also see PLA sissies crying. Text says on deployment to India border

It looks they are singing and crying to some kind of Commie patriotic song. These type of crap is part of there regular Commie propaganda programming. I am pretty sure the message of the song is too show the public how dedicated the PLA soldiers are too the country and party.
 

omaebakabaka

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Possible but the surprise element is gone and now any land taking will require lots of blood. India has had time to prepare and dig in (unlike in 1962). Even holding on to Aksai and Tibet will not be feasible in the long run when Indian economy inches closer to Chinese economy in PPP. Also the repurcussion of a localized defeat are much higher for the Chinese.

Already it appears China has lost too much in this standoff. Billions of dollars wiped out ($50 billion for just Bytedance by some estimates), lost a major growing economy for your business, lost credibility as a super power etc. Why dont they cut their losses and quit ?
So far it appears as a miscalculation but they are persistent bastards, it is a good thing for us regardless of their intentions as it gave the much needed attention to the armed forces and also increased the need to keep the threats in check and focus on a strategy to increase influence in most of SAARC countries plus myanmar. All this mobilization also probably putting money into economy during covid-19 time hopefully.
 

bajiraopeshwa

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So far it appears as a miscalculation but they are persistent bastards, it is a good thing for us regardless of their intentions as it gave the much needed attention to the armed forces and also increased the need to keep the threats in check and focus on a strategy to increase influence in most of SAARC countries plus myanmar. All this mobilization also probably putting money into economy during covid-19 time hopefully.
Yes they are persistent bastards but the longer they stay in Ladakh without a conflict, the more it will appear that they are just there to defend. That would be a huge morale booster for Indian army - imagine a foe whom the Indian and Chinese media were building up as world conquerers taking environmental casualties in Ladakh in defensive mode.

For the Indian army, the Chinese are currently the main threat so any deployment on the Chinese border is lots of good lessons learnt, operational strategies tested etc. It would have been good for the army to do such a wargame anyways but the politicians and babus would always have been timid with their strategic restraint nonsense. Hope the Indian army uses this as a golden opportunity to completely test all their operational doctrines and strategies against China.

Money is not much of a concern, the Indian software exports are mostly free money for the Indian government and just the growth there can take care of the deployment costs. Most software is in mission critical systems and Indian software will not be very impacted by Covid (unlike Chinese products many of which are discretionary purchases)
 

Bahrtiya

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Hit your own head first and may be that will shake something out of your cranium. What does babus have to do with POK or China issue? It is a matter of political resolve, if PM decides on a tough stand then he can rule over every babu. How difficult is it to go through your dense skull? Replace your profile image with doofus or learn to offer your opinion in composed manner.....
I think you are babu from south block and it hurt you hard, every fucking person here knows how manipulating MEA babus are, why should i change my DP? Moron!, why are you pouring your butt hurt on my pic 😂
If you are a babu, i can finally say i can be a better babu than you are.

On topic,
So you are saying MEA has no say in why PM Modi is not openly recognising Taiwanese sovereignty?
 

Freezer Dam

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Getting back to the question of why China created the border issue

1. India building border infra theory - This is not a new development unless India went very close to the LAC. But Chinese would have known that a buildup on their side would invite a buildup on Indian side which would only provide more security and accelerate the infra development.

2. Teach a lesson theory - India edging closer to USA etc but this has been going on for years. Also given the formidable Himalayan barrier, there is not realistic chance of a outright Chinese win, atmost a marginal victory in a localized conflict.

3. India will not fight back theory - Doklam was a rude wakeup call for the Chinese that India was getting proactive. Also the Balakot attacks etc would have indicated that India was willing to take risks

4. Protect CPEC theory - This can be a reason but CPEC is never going to replace the sea route because of lower volumes and other inherent problems.

5. Bleed India economically theory - Possibly but China would also be spending money to keep its troops on the border. Also lots of benefits have accrued to India, especially the recognition over the world that it is the only army today standing up to China

6. Make Modi look bad theory - Use the press to defame Modi to damage him politically. Congress and their cronies were egging on a fight (which may still happen but not at the time of their choosing). But sending 3 divisions to defame someone looks crazy.

7. Make a fast land grab theory - Try to grab territory fast because of better infra on Chinese side. This seems somewhat plausible but does not explain the reluctance to retreat once that failed.

8. Prevent India from grabbing land theory - Plausible but there are doubts why India would make a land grab when battling China virus.

9. Wake up India theory - Chinese thinking that a strong India might be more amenable to cooperation and therefore just shake up Indian politicians and babus. This may be very implausible but who knows.

10. Settle boundary theory - Faced with the inevitability of Indian growth and someday taking over POK/Aksai, try to settle the boundary now in the most favorable manner. Somewhat plausible but India can wait it out here if the terms are not favorable

11. Try to keep the western front safe while China fights the USA. China is about to invade Taiwan or Taiwan is about to declare independence (which in any case will happen concurrently). The US will have to invade China. While China is fighting that war, try to prevent India advancing into Aksai and POK. This seems to be the most plausible theory to me.

Any other theories ?
No 11 may be right, as they just only taking the advantage point as they can secure to defend....But how they can open eastern and western front in same time when invading Taiwan is important to them...May be the posture is only defensive in nature...Now securing the heights means to defend the Indian advancement of any aggression during invading Taiwan...It's only protecting their border with bit of salami slicing...But due to Indian response,now that thought process is gone...New strategical approach will visible with in few days....As per report of @Bhadra sir,initially they could take some more heights but suddenly stopped like before kargil situation..🤔🤔🤔🤔but what stopped them....Cause what they have taken was strategically need for them to secure Aksai cheen including G219...And now troop strengths also suggesting for defensive in nature as of now.
 

Bhadra

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Though Brahma chelani is a hawk and his opinions are always in complaint of GOI which is lesser than his expectation. However unless we have undeclared bargaining chip somewhere in form of big strategic peace of land awas where chinese have entered they are not going back. Depsang has to be vacated before it becomes defacto border. Hope army have some plans up heir sleeves if talks fail.
Bramha Chellany's write up, in spite of his reputation of being a hwak, is spot on so far as Foreign Policy culture in India is concerned.

Every Prime Minister is India starting from Nehru has been his own Foreign Minister. Leave aside his understanding of India, all PMs have been trying to prove that they understand the world better than all others. Be it India Gandhi who created Tamil Terrorists or her son Rajiv Gandhi who sent in IPKF to dismantle what Indira created, be in Morarji Desai, or Gujral everyone fucked around with Indian national interest as if they were the best guardians of it.

Foreign Office mandarins just jump in to fulfill all the wishfulness of the power that be rather than act as an institution of continuity and stability. The same has been the case with India's intelligence establishment. Proximity to Power, personal indulgence has been the norm with MEA and intelligence bureaucrats rather than an aberration.

Even the institutions like Nationa Security Council, Joint intelligence Centers have failed to provide stability and continuity in managing National Security issues. Armed forces have been deliberately kept out being not manageable politically ( not subject to whims and fancies of politicians and bureaucrats).

Indian Foreign policy has been one of the biggest failures areas of independent India with a series of managed failures right from partition time giving a disproportionate share to Pakistan. Every neighbour of India is unmanageable working against Indian interests. China did not have to do much. Our MEA and intelligence agencies actively worked for De- Hinduisation of Nepal because of the Pseudo Parsi/ Muslim/Christine King and Queen of India. China simply exploited the opportunity.

When MEA's main foreign policy objectives become garnering Muslim votes for the ruling party, what more one expects more MEA than giving them everything including Hazipir, 98000 POW, all waters, money and even Siachin, 370 for Kashmir.

India does need second independence - independence from the lanky bureaucrats, independence from "committed bureaucracy" - that is committed to the perpetuation of one party and one ideology and independence from Darbari educationists and anti-national ideology of Communism.

Nation-building is too serious a business to be left to Vote bank politicians and bureaucrats.
 

bajiraopeshwa

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No 11 may be right, as they just only taking the advantage point as they can secure to defend....But how they can open eastern and western front in same time when invading Taiwan is important to them...May be the posture is only defensive in nature...Now securing the heights means to defend the Indian advancement of any aggression during invading Taiwan...It's only protecting their border with bit of salami slicing...But due to Indian response,now that thought process is gone...New strategical approach will visible with in few days....As per report of @Bhadra sir,initially they could take some more heights but suddenly stopped like before kargil situation..🤔🤔🤔🤔but what stopped them....Cause what they have taken was strategically need for them to secure Aksai cheen including G219...And now troop strengths also suggesting for defensive in nature as of now.
One of the reasons China keeps poking is to divert the Indian military budget towards the army and away from the Navy. The real asymmetry between India and China is that most of Chinese trade passes through Malacca and as India becomes a dominant naval power, it will become a real headache for China. Although there is talk of the Kra canal etc, it does not change the problem much as it will still lie within reach of Andaman/Nicobar.
In the Himalayas or Ladakh, the Indian resources are not looking at diverting or threatening Chinese trade. But the main purpose of Indian naval assets would be not to hold territory but to deliver the offensive blow.
 

IndianYonko

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Nation-building is too serious a business to be left to Vote bank politicians and bureaucrats

Who do you think is best suited and most capable for this purpose(both can be different )? And what are the chances of these people getting their hand on this business?

Please dont't say experts or millitary, Sir.
 

Bhadra

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One of the reasons China keeps poking is to divert the Indian military budget towards the army and away from the Navy. The real asymmetry between India and China is that most of Chinese trade passes through Malacca and as India becomes a dominant naval power, it will become a real headache for China. Although there is talk of the Kra canal etc, it does not change the problem much as it will still lie within reach of Andaman/Nicobar.
In the Himalayas or Ladakh, the Indian resources are not looking at diverting or threatening Chinese trade. But the main purpose of Indian naval assets would be not to hold territory but to deliver the offensive blow.
I had posed a question in the forum which if solved will provide an answer to whatever China is doing.

What is the aim of China in Ladakh? What do they intend to achieve by doing whatever they have done, are doing and preparing to do?

Try and answer that and connect the military, territorial, diplomatic and political pieces together in answering that.

Things will fall in place.
 

Freezer Dam

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One of the reasons China keeps poking is to divert the Indian military budget towards the army and away from the Navy. The real asymmetry between India and China is that most of Chinese trade passes through Malacca and as India becomes a dominant naval power, it will become a real headache for China. Although there is talk of the Kra canal etc, it does not change the problem much as it will still lie within reach of Andaman/Nicobar.
In the Himalayas or Ladakh, the Indian resources are not looking at diverting or threatening Chinese trade. But the main purpose of Indian naval assets would be not to hold territory but to deliver the offensive blow.
As per the situation, the Chinese also waiting for the winter...Not for Indian border but to invade Taiwan...If we want to take the risk that time,then Aksai chin will be ours....But as per reports, no movements of our reserve force though....Only the mirror deployment happened, subjecting a pure defensive posture.Now here if we decide to take an action to Aksai chin, we will definitely face some action from our beloved western front...That will be become a truly 2 front war scenario...
 

IndianYonko

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I had posed a question in the forum which if solved will provide an answer to whatever China is doing.

What is the aim of China in Ladakh? What do they intend to achieve by doing whatever they have done, are doing and preparing to do?

Try and answer that and connect the military, territorial, diplomatic and political pieces together in answering that.

Things will fall in place.
My guess(which may be pretty naive) is that Chinese are not interested in territory because they already have a big vast wasteland.Neither its about people, they already have enough people to enslave.It all about protecting CPEC from any future "issues" and having direct access to middle east and good connection to middle east is always helpful since they have oil and they are fucking wealthy and big chunk of China is still poor.

We are also responsible for this issue, we should have never let porkis get away.All this aman ki asha and shit. I believe Pakistan as failed nation is no good since its still a nation, we should have broken them or atleast broke the morale which can be only done by clutching their army.
 

JBH22

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Could u pls come out of that defensive mindset of 'they are doing something'. Obviously they would be. Taking their soldiers on stretchers..... in addition to laying OFC. Contend taking the first blow...... :hehe:who pre-empted on 29-30. Take hit n keep moving.....:mad2: Indian Armed Forces are there to keep hitting them n make them move.
We are always in de facto defensive stance. The issue of 29-30aug showed we were alert no offense mode. You seriously believe that PLA will not hit. The game is all about giving and taking hits, the one who outdoes the opponent wins.
At present building reliable supply chains is the only thing I can see. We are not going to ride into aksai chin despite all the hype.we all know that
 

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