India-China 2020 Border conflict

Dessert Storm

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It's not the market size loss that's hurting them. It's the loss in market capitalization / valuation of their companies. These are calculated on the basis of future profits. For example, Bytedance's IPO was expected to explode on the basis of 1 billion Indians being addicted to TikTok thanks to cheap chicom smartphones and Jio-driven disruption of the mobile Internet market that made Internet access practically free. Chicoms miscalculated the scale of India's economic response. They didn't expect government to pull the plug on tax-generating/revenue-generating Chinese businesses in times of crisis (WuFlu). But they were proven wrong. Bytedance is dragging its feet on the IPO, because it will be at least $6 billion poorer straight-up, and lose $40 billion (not in revenues, but market capitalization), over the next 5 years.
Plus the battering of their image internationally. That would take some serious effort to repair.
 

shade

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Exactly the whole trade we have is on their side even what they buy from us is raw material which they processed back to us and earn profit.

And it's not just direct trade but the indirect one that they do using Hong Kong / Malaysia etc as their vassals.

We are hugely dependent on them for our domestic consumption and one can feel the heat with rise in price of electronics etc. We will have to buy from them in short run but if we don't act fast we will be lost.

Gov needs to not just ban but bring manufacturing industry here on war front level.
Not entirely in GoI's hands or capability, dependent very much on external factors and even then they don't seem to be truly interested in bringing manufacturing to India, they could do a lot more things to *try* atleast to attract manufacturing.


Before comparing us with China, you must understand their factory of the world meme is the result of Globalist scheming, being in geographic proximity to tech hubs like Japan , Taiwan and Korea, to finance hubs like HK and Singapore, being an Authoritarian country ruled by a bloody iron fist and the Cold War paisa since they would be a "counter" to Soviet influence apparently.

TLDR they got lucky, we don't seem to ever get this advantage
 

Dessert Storm

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I also concur on Chinese preparing something, they will have the initiative to launch the attack and we shall contend taking first blow. It remains to seen if we can take the hit and keep moving.
At least it will break bureaucracy slumber for defence acquisition for some years to come acquisitions will be sped up.
Could u pls come out of that defensive mindset of 'they are doing something'. Obviously they would be. Taking their soldiers on stretchers..... in addition to laying OFC. Contend taking the first blow...... :hehe:who pre-empted on 29-30. Take hit n keep moving.....:mad2: Indian Armed Forces are there to keep hitting them n make them move.
 

shade

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Plus the battering of their image internationally. That would take some serious effort to repair.
They don't care about "gore kya kahenge", never have, it is of no consequence,
they will continue to get investments because of pumped up( by Infrastructure spending ) GDP growth rate, continue to be factory of the world,
continue to be serviced by servile MNCs who have the greed for the large Chinese market,
and Gora, Japanese, Korean, Indian, SEAsian all will continue to consoom their products like drones, because they are cheap and have just werks "quality".

Whatever damage to them you see being done is because of an edgy, orange old man in the White house, when an even older, senile man comes to the WH, you will see a reversal.
 

Dessert Storm

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Not entirely in GoI's hands or capability, dependent very much on external factors and even then they don't seem to be truly interested in bringing manufacturing to India, they could do a lot more things to *try* atleast to attract manufacturing.


Before comparing us with China, you must understand their factory of the world meme is the result of Globalist scheming, being in geographic proximity to tech hubs like Japan , Taiwan and Korea, to finance hubs like HK and Singapore, being an Authoritarian country ruled by a bloody iron fist and the Cold War paisa since they would be a "counter" to Soviet influence apparently.

TLDR they got lucky, we don't seem to ever get this advantage
I expect to see a lot of reforms go through after the Govt gets close to majority in RS by November this year. As for now, they are taking/planning initiatives as mentioned in the articles.


 

shade

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I expect to see a lot of reforms go through after the Govt gets close to majority in RS by November this year. As for now, they are taking/planning initiatives as mentioned in the articles.


Even with reforms it is hard, because external factors involved.
Reforms will help though, no doubt.

>tfw no Globalist sugar daddies for Bharat.
>tfw Al-bakistan, Al-Bongolistan, Neplol and Lanka surround you, not Japan, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore.

Manufacturing is moving away from Cheenis though, but it is not all moving to Bharat, but rather places like Vietnam and Mexico.
 

Dessert Storm

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Even with reforms it is hard, because external factors involved.
Reforms will help though, no doubt.

>tfw no Globalist sugar daddies for Bharat.
>tfw Al-bakistan, Al-Bongolistan, Neplol and Lanka surround you, not Japan, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore.

Manufacturing is moving away from Cheenis though, but it is not all moving to Bharat, but rather places like Vietnam and Mexico.
Yes. External factors are involved. Doesn't mean we sit idle while business flies by.
 

Bhumihar

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Even with reforms it is hard, because external factors involved.
Reforms will help though, no doubt.

>tfw no Globalist sugar daddies for Bharat.
>tfw Al-bakistan, Al-Bongolistan, Neplol and Lanka surround you, not Japan, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore.

Manufacturing is moving away from Cheenis though, but it is not all moving to Bharat, but rather places like Vietnam and Mexico.
Do u visit 4chan my nigga.
 

omaebakabaka

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I also concur on Chinese preparing something, they will have the initiative to launch the attack and we shall contend taking first blow. It remains to seen if we can take the hit and keep moving.
At least it will break bureaucracy slumber for defence acquisition for some years to come acquisitions will be sped up.
My vote is they wont do nothing....I think their plans have been ripped apart from economic and military standpoint. There are too many unknowns for them to factor in from west's reaction to arms build up by their neighbors to east aka Japan. I almost wish they try to do something in NE, so our govt can take it seriously and do the massive build up of NE military and otherwise and slice up Nepal too as an opportunity.
 

Bhadra

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On China, India is making a mistake | Opinion
Beijing is using talks to consolidate its territorial gains, force India to live with the new status quo



Brahma Chellaney

Successive governments have put more faith in diplomacy than the armed forces in achieving security objectives. Diplomacy can accomplish little in the absence of strategic vision and resolve or adequate leverage. The diplomatic blunders of 1948 (Kashmir dispute’s internationalisation), 1954 (Panchsheel Agreement’s acceptance of the “Tibet region of China”), 1960 (Indus Waters Treaty), 1966 (Taskhent) and 1972 (Simla) have imposed enduring costs.


Worse still, India has learnt little from its past. Today, with China’s multi-thrust aggression, history is repeating itself, underscored by a common Indian refrain that Beijing has betrayed India’s friendship. China’s latest “stab in the back” raises key questions, not about Beijing (which consistently employs deception, concealment and surprise in peacetime), but about India. What explains India’s “hug, then repent” proclivity over the decades? Why has India repeatedly cried betrayal, not by friends, but by adversaries in whom it reposed trust? Why has Indian diplomacy rushed to believe what it wanted to believe? What makes India keep repeating the cycle of bending over backward to court a foe and then failing to see aggression coming (as in Kargil, Pathankot or Doklam)? Why does India stay at the receiving end of its foes’ machinations? Why has it never repaid China with its own “salami slicing”?

One reason history repeats itself is that virtually every prime minister, although unschooled in national security at the time of assuming office, has sought to reinvent the foreign-policy wheel, rather than learn from past blunders. Another reason is that intellectuals and journalists shrink from closely scrutinising foreign policy moves. Overselling outcomes of summit meetings with China from 1988 to 2019 for leadership glorification has led to India’s worst China crisis after the 1962 war. For example, five separate border-management agreements were signed at summits between 1993 and 2013, with each accord hailed in India (but not China) as a major or historic “breakthrough”.


Now, India admits China has trashed all those agreements with its aggression. Yet India still plays into China’s hands by clinging to the accords, and by agreeing recently in Moscow to build on them through new confidence-building measures (CBMs).

China is showing it is a master in protracting negotiations to buy time to consolidate its territorial gains, while exploring the limits of its adversary’s flexibility and testing its patience. For Beijing, any agreement is designed to bind not China but the other side to its terms. It is seeking fresh CBMs to make India respect the new, Chinese-created territorial status quo and to restrict India from upgrading its border infrastructure. China’s foreign minister claims the “consensus” reached at Moscow is to “meet each other halfway”. Meeting China halfway will validate its “10 miles forward, 5 miles back” strategy, with China gaining half but India losing half. This illustrates Beijing’s definition of “give and take” — the other side gives and China takes.


Yet, India has placed its faith in diplomacy ever since it discovered China’s intrusions in early May. It reined in its armed forces from taking counter-actions until recently. Had it permitted proactive counter-measures earlier, once sufficient acclimatised troops and weapons capability were in place, China’s territorial gains would have been more limited.

China used the talks to make additional encroachments, especially on the critical Depsang Y-Junction, which controls access to several areas. Of all the land grabs China has made, the largest is in Depsang, the sector of utmost importance to Indian defences. Yet, this has received little attention.


China acted again as peace talks were on

India nudges Beijing to walk the talk on Ladakh disengagement, China doesn’t budge

In fact, some Indians are drawing a false equivalence between the Chinese and Indian military actions. While China has seized several areas that traditionally were under Indian patrolling jurisdiction, India has occupied its own unmanned mountain heights in one area in order to pre-empt another Chinese land grab. The defence minister’s statement in Parliament, however, shows the government remains loath to admit that China has encroached on Indian areas. Shielding the government’s image, alas, comes first. This explains why India hasn’t labelled China the aggressor, leaving the field open for China to repeatedly call India the aggressor.


Having redrawn the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in several Ladakh sectors, China is now seeking to replace the term LAC with the looser expression “border areas”. It had its way in the Moscow agreement, which repeatedly mentions “border areas,” not LAC. All the boundary-related bilateral accords and protocols are LAC-centred. But China is treating LAC as a line to actually control by changing facts on the ground. The Moscow agreement’s use of the vague term “border areas” helps obscure China’s encroachments and creates space for more Chinese salami-slicing.

Diplomacy is unlikely to deliver the status quo ante India seeks. In fact, China seems intent on continuing, below the threshold of armed conflict, coercive military pressure along the entire frontier until India acquiesces to its demands, including reconciling to the new status quo.


Will China’s win-without-fighting warfare campaign help create a new India steeped in realism and determined to break the cycle of history repeating itself? At a minimum, it promises to shake up India’s business-as-usual approach to national security.

Brahma Chellaney is a geostrategist

 

tarunraju

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What’s going on here.. are these Galwan KIAs. Also see PLA sissies crying. Text says on deployment to India border

They tried to do a 1940s-level gong fei propaganda op where the soldiers have tears of joy in their eyes that they're going to defend their borders.

Except it backfired, and it makes them look like weak pussies. You see this level of shit coming out of North Korea where the commie nibbas have tears of joy that they're standing within 100 meters of their dear leader.

Local commissars will swim in petitions against such poor acting. They're up against an enemy with half a million troops who've done tours of duty in Ladakh and know the place well (more importantly, survival there), 4.5 million in reserves, and a country with over 200 nukes that can land anywhere in China, and over 500 million military-age population.

Tears of laughter.
 

shashankk

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On China, India is making a mistake | Opinion
Beijing is using talks to consolidate its territorial gains, force India to live with the new status quo



Brahma Chellaney

Successive governments have put more faith in diplomacy than the armed forces in achieving security objectives. Diplomacy can accomplish little in the absence of strategic vision and resolve or adequate leverage. The diplomatic blunders of 1948 (Kashmir dispute’s internationalisation), 1954 (Panchsheel Agreement’s acceptance of the “Tibet region of China”), 1960 (Indus Waters Treaty), 1966 (Taskhent) and 1972 (Simla) have imposed enduring costs.


Worse still, India has learnt little from its past. Today, with China’s multi-thrust aggression, history is repeating itself, underscored by a common Indian refrain that Beijing has betrayed India’s friendship. China’s latest “stab in the back” raises key questions, not about Beijing (which consistently employs deception, concealment and surprise in peacetime), but about India. What explains India’s “hug, then repent” proclivity over the decades? Why has India repeatedly cried betrayal, not by friends, but by adversaries in whom it reposed trust? Why has Indian diplomacy rushed to believe what it wanted to believe? What makes India keep repeating the cycle of bending over backward to court a foe and then failing to see aggression coming (as in Kargil, Pathankot or Doklam)? Why does India stay at the receiving end of its foes’ machinations? Why has it never repaid China with its own “salami slicing”?

One reason history repeats itself is that virtually every prime minister, although unschooled in national security at the time of assuming office, has sought to reinvent the foreign-policy wheel, rather than learn from past blunders. Another reason is that intellectuals and journalists shrink from closely scrutinising foreign policy moves. Overselling outcomes of summit meetings with China from 1988 to 2019 for leadership glorification has led to India’s worst China crisis after the 1962 war. For example, five separate border-management agreements were signed at summits between 1993 and 2013, with each accord hailed in India (but not China) as a major or historic “breakthrough”.


Now, India admits China has trashed all those agreements with its aggression. Yet India still plays into China’s hands by clinging to the accords, and by agreeing recently in Moscow to build on them through new confidence-building measures (CBMs).

China is showing it is a master in protracting negotiations to buy time to consolidate its territorial gains, while exploring the limits of its adversary’s flexibility and testing its patience. For Beijing, any agreement is designed to bind not China but the other side to its terms. It is seeking fresh CBMs to make India respect the new, Chinese-created territorial status quo and to restrict India from upgrading its border infrastructure. China’s foreign minister claims the “consensus” reached at Moscow is to “meet each other halfway”. Meeting China halfway will validate its “10 miles forward, 5 miles back” strategy, with China gaining half but India losing half. This illustrates Beijing’s definition of “give and take” — the other side gives and China takes.


Yet, India has placed its faith in diplomacy ever since it discovered China’s intrusions in early May. It reined in its armed forces from taking counter-actions until recently. Had it permitted proactive counter-measures earlier, once sufficient acclimatised troops and weapons capability were in place, China’s territorial gains would have been more limited.

China used the talks to make additional encroachments, especially on the critical Depsang Y-Junction, which controls access to several areas. Of all the land grabs China has made, the largest is in Depsang, the sector of utmost importance to Indian defences. Yet, this has received little attention.


China acted again as peace talks were on

India nudges Beijing to walk the talk on Ladakh disengagement, China doesn’t budge

In fact, some Indians are drawing a false equivalence between the Chinese and Indian military actions. While China has seized several areas that traditionally were under Indian patrolling jurisdiction, India has occupied its own unmanned mountain heights in one area in order to pre-empt another Chinese land grab. The defence minister’s statement in Parliament, however, shows the government remains loath to admit that China has encroached on Indian areas. Shielding the government’s image, alas, comes first. This explains why India hasn’t labelled China the aggressor, leaving the field open for China to repeatedly call India the aggressor.


Having redrawn the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in several Ladakh sectors, China is now seeking to replace the term LAC with the looser expression “border areas”. It had its way in the Moscow agreement, which repeatedly mentions “border areas,” not LAC. All the boundary-related bilateral accords and protocols are LAC-centred. But China is treating LAC as a line to actually control by changing facts on the ground. The Moscow agreement’s use of the vague term “border areas” helps obscure China’s encroachments and creates space for more Chinese salami-slicing.

Diplomacy is unlikely to deliver the status quo ante India seeks. In fact, China seems intent on continuing, below the threshold of armed conflict, coercive military pressure along the entire frontier until India acquiesces to its demands, including reconciling to the new status quo.


Will China’s win-without-fighting warfare campaign help create a new India steeped in realism and determined to break the cycle of history repeating itself? At a minimum, it promises to shake up India’s business-as-usual approach to national security.

Brahma Chellaney is a geostrategist

Though Brahma chelani is a hawk and his opinions are always in complaint of GOI which is lesser than his expectation. However unless we have undeclared bargaining chip somewhere in form of big strategic peace of land awas where chinese have entered they are not going back. Depsang has to be vacated before it becomes defacto border. Hope army have some plans up heir sleeves if talks fail.
 

pinakaTHEbow

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IA waiting for the winter to set in to start the game?

After silently reading so many pages on this thread, I feel that most people think Sun Tze shit can only be played by Chin and IA is basically sunny deol in border, all yelling and no scheming. I guess IA has its plans once winter sets in but hopefully bureaucrats/leaders won't screw up come like they did with giving back gains in '65 to chin and handing over 93K POW's without extracting price on pak.
 

pinakaTHEbow

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We will never really know, they have domestic manufacturing capabilities for jet airframes, guns, chassis of tanks,APCs etc, yet they still have to import jet engines, marine engines, i think even the tank and IFV engines from other countries, further more they haven't been able to copy top of the line Radars, whether it is the huge ones on the ground like used in S400 or the fancy AESA latest radars( i don't know the exact name of this radar type) used in Su-35.
I guess we (civilians) will never know.


I suggest you read this thread on Chin's crazy ass plan to overcome engine tech problem. The only one good thing with communism, long-term plans.
 

etantra

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Depsang Entanglement
Depsang Entanglement is a classical example of the real intent and purpose of Chinese military games they have been playing with India - to show Indian down and tell India there are no match for China. Defeat the Indians in the Mind.

The honorable RM sid in Rajya Sabha " Bharat Ki Sena Ko koi taqat Patrolling Karne Se Nahin Rok Sakti".

Which patrolling was he referring to? Obviously the patrolling by ITBP to patrolling points 10 to 13 in Depsang plains.

In Apr May 2013 The PLA intruded in large numbers in Depsang, Southern portion of DBO Bawl, and stayed there at the junction of Raki Nullah and Jeewan Nullah, about 18km inside the Indian perception of Lac. Indian troops used to go the Bottle Neck or Y junction in vehicles and after that go to patrolling points on foot as the road existed only up to Y junction. The Chinese troop styed at Bottle neck for a long time and after some negotiation withdrew to their side,

After 2013, whenever the Indian side reach ner the Y junction the Chinese appear from their posts across the LOC and block Indian patrols at Y Junction and Do not allow them to proceed any further.

The Chinese have neither constructed any structure on the Indian side of LAC nor occupied any part of it. But whenever our patrols approach Y junction they hurried come and block any further movement. That is why "Na Koi Ghussa Hai Na Kabje Men Hai". Also, that is the relevance of the "Bharat ki Sena ki Patrolling Ko koi Rok Nahin Sakta" statement.

Why Chinese Act is Dangerous

Apart from demoralizing the troops on the ground and Indian leadership in Delhi, Chinese activities are dangerous from this perspective;
* Proximity to Road DSDBO and danger to it being blocked.
* Ease of operation to launch an offensive towards Murgo thereby completely cutting off entire DBO/SSN. Bothe the road axis that is DSDBO and Khargungla - SeserLa merge at Morgo,
* Develop and progress operations towards Serla and Capture Siachin Base.

Link Road River post - Depsang and Murgo and maintain forces all along Seserla axix right up to Siachin base..

Thus it may be seen that this Chinese action is directed less at DBO and more towards Murgo and needs to cleared. Strange that the previous govt under MMS just kept quiet on that. Our MEA Babus must have made at least a hundred trips to China since then at the cost of GoI..

You know why lumps like Shukla and Panag are quite about it ?? Losers..
https://kishkat.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-china-might-be-actually-aiming-for.html
What is the strategic importance of dbo and siachen for China?

That links answers the question with pics to illustrate the possible chinese plan. The author seems to have updated his blog but I came across this first in July 2020.
 

Bahrtiya

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I am with PM until I see ground signs of compromise giving up our recent gains, this game is not won based on ego but ground reality and tactics and strategy.
Calling spade a spade is not ego, you write like a babu, if i were PM Modi, i would have hit your head to get it straight, this MEA babus are like 0.5 front of 0.5 front.
They never solved pojk issue they are messing up nepal issue and they can never solve chinki issue.
 

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