India-China 2020 Border conflict

johnq

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The loud music/noise that the Chinese are playing serves several goals. First, it covers up whatever they are doing; for example digging a tunnel. Second, it causes the enemy to get so used to the loud noise that they don't react as well when you actually attack them. Alexander used this tactic against Porus. He would start marching his soldiers with loud drums at night on the other side of a river. The Indian soldiers kept on showing up on the other side for a while, but eventually they got desensitized to the noise. As a result, the night Alexander actually crossed the river the Indian soldiers were too late to stop him. If the Chinese are playing very high frequency sound at the same time as the music, it can also have permanent damaging effects. And of course it will interrupt REM sleep of the Indian soldiers.
I think it's a mistake to allow the Chinese to get away with all of this, and it's better to just start a full military offensive against the Chinese; call their bluff.
 

johnq

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I wish I could share the same optimism as you but there have been too many failures to remember from DRDO and HAL but HAL will get a pass if they can redeem themselves with mk2 and I forgot the next gen one....they come off more as integrators as of now and they should move into original designers and thinkers in the future. That's why can't let the Tejas get obsolete....can't call indigenous and depend critically on others. So some honesty will also save their reputation in stating clearly. I do not think this is wage or budget related.

PS: Before people complain,this may be Tejas topic.
You should see the number of failures the US has had before it got things right, and even now it has made mistakes in its designs including the F-35. But the US realizes the value of having a military industrial complex, so it fixes the products and uses them anyways.
You can't just start from scratch and expect a perfect finished product. That is not how research and development works. It's an iterative process. I find it amusing that the same people who complain about things not being 100% indigenous and perfect complain about money being spent on research and development. You can't have it both ways. Either pay through the roof to get your 6 Apache helicopters for a billion, or give the research and development guys enough resources to build decent products. Why does India still need to send its engines to Russia to test them? China spent a lot more on engine development, so it's ahead of India now. Investment matters. Now China can make fighter jets at a very high rate at a lower cost, due to its initial large investments in research and development. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
 

cannonfodder

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Even if some fight breaks out now; both sides will accuse each other(no way to know what happened). Other countries don't care about it as long as they have some vested interest in the conflict and will go along any narrative that suits their interests. So hiding behind let the other side start is plain stupid imo.

So, PLA is not willing to engage becoz they are not convinced of win. Most likely IA does not have the mandate from south block. Thats all there is to it. If IA wants to irritate the chinese, they can broadcast free tibet/ winnie the pooh songs. The Chinese must be already irritated enough with SFF kicking ass (esp from our tibetian brothers).
 

johnq

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How PLA tortured Indian citizen, Arunachal man recounts his experience
Togley Singkam is 21 and earns his livelihood in the Upper Subansiri district of Arunachal Pradesh working as a porter. He is a resident of Taksing area that lies along the India-China border.
Owing his superior knowledge of the terrain, he occasionally assists the government and military authorities in ferrying essentials in this remote area which earns him some additional money.
His life took a turn on March 19 this year - months before India-China military faceoff began along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh - as he was abducted by the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA).
He was moving around the area when he was he was taken captive by the PLA troops, who had crossed the Line of Actual Control. Within seconds, Togley Singkam was forced to bend on knees, his hands tied to his neck and eyes blindfolded.
He was released on April 7. Togley Singkam recounted his horrible experience of being a prisoner of the PLA while speaking to India Today TV.
AS CHINA'S CAPTIVE
"I was in Indian territory on 19th March. I go in that area regularly for hunting to get food and we eat that. That was when the PLA officials came and whisked me away. I could not run away because they were in huge numbers."
"They made me sit on the floor, tied my hands at the back with the neck, wrapped my face and took me away. When my eyes opened then I was in a Chinese camp. I was then tied to a bed and beaten up. I was taken in another vehicle to some other place. My face was covered and I was beaten up again," Togley Singkam told India Today TV.

Togley was taken into Chinese vehicle into their territory. When he opened his eyes he found himself sitting in a wooden chair in a stark dark room. He was subjected to kicking, slapping and electric shocks by the PLA abductors.
"I was kept in a dark room for entire 15 days. I was not allowed to close my eyes. Slapping, beating, shocks...everything was there," he recounted.
"For 15 days, I was made to sit in a chair and not allowed to close my eyes for even fraction of a second. My condition was so bad that I could not tell daytime from night. I was given electric shocks and forced to confess that I am a spy of the Indian Army. They used to beat me randomly," he said.
The torture did not end here.
"I was given packaged food and only allowed to get up for using toilet. My hands were clipped to the chair all the time. No one can sit without closing eyes for such long time. But they gave me electric shocks if I did. But, I did not give up even after that," he said.
There are boards along the India-China border which are put up at certain strategic locations to identify the Indian territory to keep locals safe and secure in the boundary.
This has irked the People's Liberation Army of China which even tried matching his handwriting with pictures of these boards in order to gather "prove" that Togley Singkam was a part of the intelligence system of India.
"They did my handwriting test also. I was given sheets to write because they wanted to ensure if I was the one writing along the border and putting up boards at some places. This was to check during patrolling if I was the one who had written India in the newly put up boards. This was a handwriting test and they made me write India on sheets of paper...but my hand writings did not match with any of the boards they compared," Togley Singkam said.
LANGUAGE BARRIER ACROSS BORDER
But how did they interact with him, an Indian who does not know Mandarin?
Togley Singkam said he is not educated enough to write a few sentences in Hindi, a language he can speak. He cannot communicate in English. The Chinese have other limitations.
"The Chinese Army used mobile phones to record what I said and then to translate the same into their own language, and vice versa. Their language was translated into Hindi for me and played on the phone," he said.
He said the Chinese asked him to use mobile phone, which he purposefully did not. "They asked me to use mobile phones. But I knew it was trap, so I tried to stay away from using them," he said.
Being a local resident of Taksing, Togley Singkam has grown up watching army movements in the area but he had no clue what he should do if captured by an enemy force.

"They only wanted to me to accept that I was working for the Indian Army, clicking photo of the area and revealing secret locations. I told them that I had come to the forest for hunting and I was caught unaware by the Army," Togley Singkam maintained.
IN FREE MAN'S WORLD AGAIN
After his release in April, he heaved sigh of relief and expressed his gratitude to authorities for ensuring his safe comeback to India. He said, "They released me because of the intervention by the Indian Army. They played a crucial role in this."
"The central government took up my case and sent my Aadhaar card details to them. That is when I realised that I would continue to stay alive. I had given up by this time. The Chinese officials repeatedly told me that I would be punished in their country by their government. I am thankful that I have been saved and am back alive home," he said.
Togley Singkam puts the life in unfriendly border area in perspective saying, "The Chinese Army usually harasses people in the border areas. They take people into custody on false allegations. They enter into our territory but are given a befitting reply by the India Army."
The Chinese army regularly enters Indian land after claiming it as its own and kidnaps and tortures Indian people. There is only one way to put a stop to this. These Chinese soldiers are animals that need to be put down. India should attack the PLA with its full military might, otherwise they will never stop stealing land and torturing Indian citizens.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The loud music/noise that the Chinese are playing serves several goals. First, it covers up whatever they are doing; for example digging a tunnel. Second, it causes the enemy to get so used to the loud noise that they don't react as well when you actually attack them. Alexander used this tactic against Porus. He would start marching his soldiers with loud drums at night on the other side of a river. The Indian soldiers kept on showing up on the other side for a while, but eventually they got desensitized to the noise. As a result, the night Alexander actually crossed the river the Indian soldiers were too late to stop him. If the Chinese are playing very high frequency sound at the same time as the music, it can also have permanent damaging effects. And of course it will interrupt REM sleep of the Indian soldiers.
I think it's a mistake to allow the Chinese to get away with all of this, and it's better to just start a full military offensive against the Chinese; call their bluff.
Or, use Emp weapons to fry the electronic? We are not in 1962 anymore. With the CCP, indian Army has to go hi-tech. They are not Pakshitstan Army who have a budget less than UP state police. I can bet that the bastardized children of the mongols will deploy EMP weapons, laser range finders, night vision and thermal scanners, ground sensors, redundant optical fiber cables, air conditioned command and control mobile centers etc. We better get hi-tech as these chinkanzees fight on tech dimensions more than real fighting.
 

Destrius

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There are only four independent powers: America, Russia, China, and India.

Russia has a huge buffer to the south and east and only needs to focus its western border.

China has all of Tibet and Xinjiang as a buffer and only faces a threat to it's Han heartland from the East.

America has the entire Western hemisphere under its iron grip and faces zero actual threat to its mainland. In short they have zero fronts and their entire foreign policy is based on preemptive containment.

India alone has to deal with two dangerous fronts that pose a danger to its heartland. Losing Tibet as a buffer is probably one of the most easily preventable and worst strategic mistake of any nation in history.

Out of all the world's nations, no country has desired peace as much as India and yet no country would benefit more from war as India.

If India is ever to progress, one of the fronts will have to be eliminated permanently. It is absurd for a country to ever develop when boxed in with enemies like India is. For the sake of India's future, war is the only option.
 

cannonfodder

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You should see the number of failures the US has had before it got things right, and even now it has made mistakes in its designs including the F-35. But the US realizes the value of having a military industrial complex, so it fixes the products and uses them anyways.
You can't just start from scratch and expect a perfect finished product. That is not how research and development works. It's an iterative process. I find it amusing that the same people who complain about things not being 100% indigenous and perfect complain about money being spent on research and development. You can't have it both ways. Either pay through the roof to get your 6 Apache helicopters for a billion, or give the research and development guys enough resources to build decent products. Why does India still need to send its engines to Russia to test them? China spent a lot more on engine development, so it's ahead of India now. Investment matters. Now China can make fighter jets at a very high rate at a lower cost, due to its initial large investments in research and development. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Simply put we as country always shied away from proper R&D budgeting even from the available resources. Socialism and other activities take up large sum becoz everything else is crony capitalism. Some token amount is given to keep labs running resulting in products that run into years of testing/modification cycle before finally entering production. In essence like some members say we are in the process of transitioning from gavaskar to sachin type cricket team. Kohli/Dhoni type cricket team is long time away. :shoot:
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Simply put we as country always shied away from proper R&D budgeting even from the available resources. Socialism and other activities take up large sum becoz everything else is crony capitalism. Some token amount is given to keep labs running resulting in products that run into years of testing/modification cycle before finally entering production. In essence like some members say we are in the process of transitioning from gavaskar to sachin type cricket team. Kohli/Dhoni type cricket team is long time away. :shoot:
Crony Socialism has been the greatest threat to us. The day Indira Gandhi nationalized businesses especially the banks, and started labeling private corporations as evil, our descent into malaise began. Our founding fathers never wanted the country to become socialisti. Indira Gandhi was the one who included words like socialism into the constitution to please USSR, who did help us win the 1971 war. By putting all our eggs in USSR, we just locked ourselves into a process that bankrupted us in 1991, much like it did to the USSR. The CCP we’re smarter - they realized two decades earlier than us that communist/socialist policies would make them bankrupt and opened up the economy and invested in building a military MIC and a strong economy at the same time - the US model, rather than the USSR model of being powerful only in MIC. Indian intelligence agencies and economists and politicians failed to notice this transformation thanks to stupid PMs like RG, and continued the disastrous policies to its ultimate demise in 1991. If only India had adopted the US model of development decades ago, we would have been in very good shape now to take on any power. In a way, I am grateful that the CCP is provoking us - our lazy babus will now have to really demonstrate superior technical, intellectual, and strategic capabilities as we deal with a superior, hi-tech power. The government now has the green signal to move ahead with significant military and industrial reforms to usher in the US model, and execute projects rapidly. Competition in all sectors including a hi-tech war with the CCP is good for us. Just like France decided to become an industrial powerhouse after humiliation at the hands of the Nazi Germany, India has to face this war to become powerful.
 

omaebakabaka

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You should see the number of failures the US has had before it got things right, and even now it has made mistakes in its designs including the F-35. But the US realizes the value of having a military industrial complex, so it fixes the products and uses them anyways.
You can't just start from scratch and expect a perfect finished product. That is not how research and development works. It's an iterative process. I find it amusing that the same people who complain about things not being 100% indigenous and perfect complain about money being spent on research and development. You can't have it both ways. Either pay through the roof to get your 6 Apache helicopters for a billion, or give the research and development guys enough resources to build decent products. Why does India still need to send its engines to Russia to test them? China spent a lot more on engine development, so it's ahead of India now. Investment matters. Now China can make fighter jets at a very high rate at a lower cost, due to its initial large investments in research and development. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Nice try but India is not building something that has not been done before with Tejas or anything else and we have not done anything original in over atleast 700 years. If result is the only thing that matters and it does in a war then this pace is unacceptable, so many technology transfers, partnerships and so on and still we do not have a competetive product in any defence related area from small arms to ammunition to tanks to aircrafts that stands on features vs cost even for our own consumption forget about exports. Even take software, we called ourself IT superpower but there is not a single world class product out in the market from India. Its all useless tedious back office work or services....You can sugarcoat it all you want and it is certainly not lack of talent.....this is utter selfishness from ones own parents to all the way to PM. One has to take pride and work hard to get results.....

With congress era of decades the energy after independence was not channeled properly but with Modi I think we are seeing somethings like actually deploying our own things into combat and let them shine or sink so we can address short comings.

Apologies for OT, this will be my last reply on this topic. It started with Hawk AJT and ended up here.
 
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omaebakabaka

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Crony Socialism has been the greatest threat to us. The day Indira Gandhi nationalized businesses especially the banks, and started labeling private corporations as evil, our descent into malaise began. Our founding fathers never wanted the country to become socialisti. Indira Gandhi was the one who included words like socialism into the constitution to please USSR, who did help us win the 1971 war. By putting all our eggs in USSR, we just locked ourselves into a process that bankrupted us in 1991, much like it did to the USSR. The CCP we’re smarter - they realized two decades earlier than us that communist/socialist policies would make them bankrupt and opened up the economy and invested in building a military MIC and a strong economy at the same time - the US model, rather than the USSR model of being powerful only in MIC. Indian intelligence agencies and economists and politicians failed to notice this transformation thanks to stupid PMs like RG, and continued the disastrous policies to its ultimate demise in 1991. If only India had adopted the US model of development decades ago, we would have been in very good shape now to take on any power. In a way, I am grateful that the CCP is provoking us - our lazy babus will now have to really demonstrate superior technical, intellectual, and strategic capabilities as we deal with a superior, hi-tech power. The government now has the green signal to move ahead with significant military and industrial reforms to usher in the US model, and execute projects rapidly. Competition in all sectors including a hi-tech war with the CCP is good for us. Just like France decided to become an industrial powerhouse after humiliation at the hands of the Nazi Germany, India has to face this war to become powerful.
You can adapt any model, results will only come when there is some honesty and integrity at individual level. Chasing after quick buck and fame and taking all crooked ways to get there will never yield results at the society level. Germany and Japan rose from ashes to become leading powers....our individual ethical system collapsed when the borders opened up more than a millennia ago and now caste is something west defined but not looked as expertise that was handed down generation to generation specializing in various things. Inertia is bitch and it takes lot of external force to change the state....lets hope Modi is that force and you minus that things are same as before...
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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You can adapt any model, results will only come when there is some honesty and integrity at individual level. Chasing after quick buck and fame and taking all crooked ways to get there will never yield results at the society level. Germany and Japan rose from ashes to become leading powers....our individual ethical system collapsed when the borders opened up more than a millennia ago and now caste is something west defined but not looked as expertise that was handed down generation to generation specializing in various things. Inertia is bitch and it takes lot of external force to change the state....lets hope Modi is that force and you minus that things are same as before...
Our school systems are the biggest failures. There should have been mandatory discipline/basic military training in all schools in India. Then schooling must be made mandator. In the US, you must educate your kids as per law. You can home school but must still educate. Systems are in place to make sure such things happen. Discipline and strict enforcement is what made German, Japan, etc quickly recover from the ashes plus the smaller sizes and homogeneity of the population. India is a bit like Africa, there are all kinds of people all over the place and states behave like countries. In my opinion, Lack of women’s education is the single biggest thing that has set us back decades. Women’s education and ability to earn is supremely important for everything from a child’s healthy growth to good education choices to being disciplined and progressive members of society. Women’s education would have controlled population growth to a great extent, all very important factors in how resources are used. Honesty and integrity are values that are made at home and if a household is poor with 5, 6 children in them, most likely all of the children will be undisciplined, not get educated, of poor health, and desperate enough that they will resort to cheating, lying , stealing etc to get ahead. That is what has happened to us. A lack of opportunities to millions of children due to mindless population growth made them the useless, crooked people they are. This basic problem has to be addressed (the CCP focused on this problem and addressed in the 1980s, though the one child policy is disastrous but the CCP completely transformed women’s education levels and workforce participation rates) immediately. our homes and schools are where all our foundation years happen. And these places have to become disciplined, progressive and very efficient for us to become like Jon nd Germany in efficiency and development. Let’s hope Modi can at least start this transformation and the next decade or so everything gets done as it should be.
 

hit&run

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The most striking trait of Indian right-wing is not their meltdown they get on very first impact of an attack but the victim they play all the time assuming India will always be toyed by the bigger alliance partner.

Staying alone; endure the mediocrity, slow-paced industrial growth and live with it's obsolescence or being in an alliance to quickly come out of it with a bit of the extra cost will always remain a gordaion knot for those who are never trained to be intrepid picky partners.

Unfortunately, the left is already a gone case. They can not even organize clown show in a Kindergarten. The right is too tight-assed to leak it's own fart fearing others may utilize it for their own good.
 
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prasadr14

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This is pretty stupid.

Russia is clearly not going to support us against China.
In fact they are making good money selling stuff both sides.

US wants to help but want's something in return.
Sorry but why should US NOT expect something in return?
US should help us freely, give stuff cheap, give technology away and we will just sit in Russia lap while US is doing all that for us - sounds lame

What's worse, China & pak are causing issues at the border but it's US we should be vary off - because they will ask us to fight in Afg.
BooHoo, we will be fighting Taliban, either in Afg or in Kashmir.
 

tarunraju

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US wants to help but want's something in return.
Sorry but why should US NOT expect something in return?
US should help us freely, give stuff cheap, give technology away and we will just sit in Russia lap while US is doing all that for us - sounds lame
US support in Ladakh in exchange for Indian boots in Afghanistan is too high a price. It's like borrowing a large sum of money from a loanshark when your credit score and paperwork makes you eligible to borrow from SBI (i.e. India faces China with what it has, an all-of-country approach), just because you're too lazy to sign 20 papers and photocopy your docs.

We're playing with nuclear sidewheels, so 1962 and Chinese overruning Arunachal is impossible anyway.
 

omaebakabaka

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US support in Ladakh in exchange for Indian boots in Afghanistan is too high a price. It's like borrowing a large sum of money from a loanshark when your credit score and paperwork makes you eligible to borrow from SBI (i.e. India faces China with what it has, an all-of-country approach), just because you're too lazy to sign 20 papers and photocopy your docs.

We're playing with nuclear sidewheels, so 1962 and Chinese overruning Arunachal is impossible anyway.
Actually Indian troops in Afghanistan in a limited fashion is a good thing, don't you think against Pak and China? We just need to be able to work with some of those afghan factions....
 

prasadr14

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US support in Ladakh in exchange for Indian boots in Afghanistan is too high a price. It's like borrowing a large sum of money from a loanshark when your credit score and paperwork makes you eligible to borrow from SBI (i.e. India faces China with what it has, an all-of-country approach), just because you're too lazy to sign 20 papers and photocopy your docs.

We're playing with nuclear sidewheels, so 1962 and Chinese overruning Arunachal is impossible anyway.
US support is not just about Ladakh...
It;s about beating back Pak & China who are looking to destroy us.

Yeah, putting boots in Afg is a small price to pay if the attacks from east and west goes down,
 

cannonfodder

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Actually Indian troops in Afghanistan in a limited fashion is a good thing, don't you think against Pak and China? We just need to be able to work with some of those afghan factions....
^^ That is bad optics domestically.

I can already hear Modi sold Indian soldiers bla bla & aam admi will lap up commie slogans readily.
With each body bag the political cost will become heavier.
 

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