India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Akula]

Sir's
Small doubts....

India importing many top tech systems from US just below NATO standard, is it possible to import AMRAAM 120D+Sidewinder to equip our possible fighters.

And

India have capability of produce of 0.25m resolution capacity satellites + launching capacity, why we not spent atleast 6 or 7 thousand crore to send atleast 20 or 30 satellites to monitor 24*7 survailance.(always need to know enemy movement to act or react fastly)

Please checkout this thread

Military applications of Indian Space program

Military applications of Indian Space program

defenceforumindia.com

 

[doreamon]

Sir
ASTRA 2 Take two or three years to mature. 120D will outperform astra 1 & Russian equlants. But i asked just, US becoming very close to india like logistic support + QUAD, if india ask 120d & sidewinder will US offer those or not? (For warlike situation)

And

Indias tax collection is much enough to spend 6 or 7 thousand crore for satellite + launch system for urgent needs.


Any indian analyst pls all tell ur views.

AIM 120D ? Which aircraft u want to fit it with ... And that too with in 2/3 yrs ... Dnt say su30mki . Integration of missile is a complecated business . Air frame coding etc require .. do u know why meteor cld nt be integrated with tejasmk1a ? Search it on google..

By the way we have been hearing abt derby ER for su30mki for a year . Cnt say if its done

 

[omaebakabaka]

Both China and Russia will dismantle Mongolia and divide it amongst themselves, if US tries to station ballistic missiles in Mongolia. And just like the russian conquest of Crimea there will be nothing that the US could do about it..infact Mongolia is absolutely landlocked and surrounded by Russia and China

Mongolia has unofficial military pact with Russia, they dislike Chinese based on their shared history.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Have to wait if it's fake or real since below article is just 40 days old.

If US can do this then it could be a big irritant and undermining the "shupa powa" status of Chini cowards.

Are the US preparing to deploy its missiles in Mongolia?

After the Americans broke the INF Treaty, the Pentagon immediately promised to deploy its missiles in Asia. This has already caused an angry and restless reaction of China. And, it seems, for good reason ...

katehon.com

ARE THE US PREPARING TO DEPLOY ITS MISSILES IN MONGOLIA?
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GEOPOLITICS


07.08.2019
USA
Alex Pall
After the Americans broke the INF Treaty, the Pentagon immediately promised to deploy its missiles in Asia. This has already caused an angry and restless reaction of China. And, it seems, for good reason ...
Europe understands perfectly well that if America is stuffing it with medium- and shorter-range missiles, naturally, all these positions will be covered in red circles on Russian maps of combat employment of the armed forces.
Washington is not a solid stone fortress either. They don’t really want to add a headache to themselves with the whining of Europeans and a clear response threat from Moscow. Yes, and initially one of the goals of the US withdrawal from the INF Treaty was to identify a threat to China. Which, according to Washington’s logic, has accumulated too many medium-range missiles, but there are no restrictions on it, because it is not a party to arms reduction treaties.
Based on this, US Secretary of Defense Mark Esper openly announced that the Pentagon is considering deploying medium-range missiles in the Asian region. According to American logic, this will help to drag the PRC into a new treaty - the INF Treaty-2, which already includes three countries.
Beijing disagrees with this logic, and is rather eloquent.

As a result, the world community witnessed an unprecedented event: Beijing, which has so far fanned out silently at such current conflicts, this time openly and even energetically expressed solidarity with Russia. And America threatened that "China will not stand aside and will be forced to take countermeasures if the United States places ground-based medium-range missiles in this part of the world."
Whether the Chinese countermeasures will include the reciprocal deployment of medium-range missiles somewhere near the US coast is unclear.

But, paradoxically at first glance, the Americans are far from endless in their choice of ground-based medium-range missiles. What is needed in order to place such weapons on the threshold of China? Firstly, the allied relations between this country and the United States. Secondly, certain frictions between this country and China. Thirdly, a relatively stable political regime and the resulting predictability of the country's position, especially when the country will have to plunge itself into confrontation with the most powerful Asian power. With which Russia will clearly sympathize. Finally, this country should lie in a radius of 2-5 thousand kilometers from important economic and political centers of the PRC.
And as a result of these objective limitations - there are not many options left. We will not take the actual territory of the United States on the island of Guam - this is too obvious, and 3000 km to Shanghai and 4000 to Beijing make this option very attractive for the United States. However, at the same time, this turns the island into a no less obvious reciprocal goal, and not in the character of the Americans to sacrifice themselves, if they can sacrifice someone else.
Japan, too, is asking for the criteria for the role of position for American missiles. But there is a nuclear-free principle: not to have, not to import, and not to produce nuclear weapons. And non-nuclear missiles against a country like China make no sense. Whatever the US Secretary of Defense promises.
South Korea? It could be the same. But Seoul is so well dependent on the Chinese market that it will hush things up even with Washington's most insistent desire. In addition, North Korea is also nearby. Does Seoul, which has just at least visibly defused the situation with Pyongyang, need to risk a military conflict with the DPRK?

Of the recognized countries, the USA has no close allies in the region. Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar? They have problems with China, but it is hardly realistic to think that these countries will actually go to war with him for American interests. Pakistan today is more of an ally of Beijing than of Washington. India has serious problems with China, but for the whole range of its geopolitical positions, this country will not go to host American weapons directed against a third country.
What is left with us? Yes, Taiwan. An unrecognized country located on an extremely short military-political leash near Washington. And with mainland China it is in a state of inescapable, albeit cold war. Same as between North and South Korea.
But Taiwan is too close. Two hundred kilometers is not a distance. In the event of war, the Chinese army will crush all missile positions here within minutes.

Mongolia
And under these conditions, the most advantageous option at first glance remains the most beneficial for the United States. Mongolia.

Although for whom it is unthinkable? For the United States, on the contrary, it is extremely pragmatic. From here, medium-range missiles splendidly cover the entire territory of both enemies of America - both China and Russia. Including Murmansk and Anadyr. And at the same time, the country’s relief is such that a couple of divisions of mobile devices for RSD can be covered in the most infinitely wonderful way.
Besides. The country is large, the population is small. The population is not too developed, in thinking - medieval nomads. An attempt to switch from feudalism to socialism, frankly, failed. This means that there is already one fundamental advantage: public protests should not be feared, and you can work with a small elite quite effectively. The United States has enough money for this. Moreover, since 1991, the Mongolian elites have been sensitively following a pro-Western course. And even from natural for Mongolia membership in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, Ulan Bator has been evading for many years.

Yes, Mongolia is three-quarters dependent on trade with China. But on the other hand, there are long-standing territorial differences between these countries. A long-standing friendly memory of Russia? The cult of Genghis Khan perfectly eliminates this.

So in the next few years, it is worth observing carefully the ideological and political movements in Mongolia. As if there was no surprise ...
Well, and the last. Very remarkable news came in late July from Washington. There, President Donald Trump held talks with Mongolian President Haltmaagiin Battulga. According to reports from the White House, the main topic of the negotiations was trade: "representatives of the Trump administration announced their desire to help Mongolia diversify foreign trade."

But this altruism is not due to gratitude for the fact that the Mongol president gave the horse to Trump's son Barron. It seems that the whole explanation lies in one phrase: "Trump and Battulga also discussed security and defense issues." How does Mongolia, with its geographical position, build its defense without the United States?
And here is the notorious John Bolton, Trump's national security adviser, recently traveled to Ulaanbaatar.

This is a 2019 article.. and it is purely guess work on the part of the author. There is no concrete information about any such agreement

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Mongolia has unofficial military pact with Russia, they dislike Chinese based on their shared history.

Russia will never tolerate american offensive missiles in Mongolia

 

[omaebakabaka]

Russia will never tolerate american offensive missiles in Mongolia

It might seem so, what did they do about Ukraine which is much closer to Moscow.....all and anything that is possible can happen and will happen when things align Impossible is not a fact, its an opinion -- Puranas

 

[prasadr14]

Apparently China have been creating a team of Chinese who knows and understand Hindi to infiltrate in India as spies. I have read it about long back how they plan to have hindi speaking Chinese to understand and know more abt Indian society as part of their strategy to dominate Indian subcontinent.

They can learn Hindi or Gujarati etc etc...
Would not help.

As soon as they open their mouths, the stench would give away their identity.

 

[garg_bharat]

at times I think we need more powerful nukes as a detterent? But I have a feeling
MIRV test will come soon to make up for it?

India has a highly dubious nuke program. It's capabilities may be better known to adversaries than even own military. I think we have not taken China into consideration in the nuke balance due to flaws in our planning. Modi may have accelerated some stuff but a robust capability against China is hard to see.

I sincerely hope we never come to the nuclear flashpoint. If we do, chances of public disappointment are there.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Get realistic.

Too much fantasy is not good.

AMCA will/will not come ..... no one can predict.

No 5th Generation fighter is coming in from an outside country.

Now, work out what we shall be doing.

1. Upgrade of Su-30 MKIs, Mig-29s, Mirage 2000s, Jaguars.
2. LCA induction in larger numbers.
3. And wait for AMCA ... over the next decade.
4. If it does not come, buy some more Rafale - perhaps.
5. Forget MRCA 2.0

The above is your IAF. That is it.

@too much fantasy

Being imaginative is ok.

Agree to AMCA part.

What's the reason for saying no 5th gen is coming from an outside country?
Reasons why I ask:
(1) If AMCA does not mature on time we cannot be stuck with all previous generation fleet.
(2) IAF fields Light, Medium n Heavy. No new heavies are planned that are indigenous. Upgraded MKI can only do so much in the decades beyond 2030.

On what we shall be doing:
1. Upgrades
2. Induction of Lights
3. & 4. AMCA along with Rafales perhaps is induction of Mediums
5. MRCA 2.0!!!!! What's that? GOI would go for G2G.
Airforce won't necessarily look like that. Does not take into account MWF, limited no's of Heavy Fifth Gen in case AMCA is late or otherwise too.

 

[hit&run]

It would be imprudent to assume that Indian army leadership had no pre-planning including logistics ready to capture key strategic ridges to outflank PLA. Strengthening posts and securing it's connectivity/supply routes must have also been pre-planned. The volume of logistics we replenish at Siachin every day tells about our capabilities pretty loud.

There was no puzzle with pieces missing as far as logistics and tactics are concern but only the intent. We are the best army for high altitude mountain warfare. Rather than the game of Go it is two-rows linear Chess at play. The same game we played during and after operation Meghdoot to hold every height, that is to defend every square of the chessboard.

There is overwhelming evidence which includes official protests by China that Indian army has started changing the status quo. There is no need to doubt that Indian army has changed its method after waiting for a very long time; expecting Chinese will start behaving. The mention of ’readjustment’ has officially come 2-3 times now. That should suffice every query that business is not as usual. Details will come out sooner or later

 

[LDev]

We will never really know, they have domestic manufacturing capabilities for jet airframes, guns, chassis of tanks,APCs etc, yet they still have to import jet engines, marine engines, i think even the tank and IFV engines from other countries, further more they haven't been able to copy top of the line Radars, whether it is the huge ones on the ground like used in S400 or the fancy AESA latest radars( i don't know the exact name of this radar type) used in Su-35.
Unlike us though they will only be sold offensive and support equipment by Russia, we have a large selection of vendors for both offensive and support platforms

The Chinese have been using bought and stolen technology for a long time. The J-10 fighter has major design input from the Israeli Lavi. Remember, at one stage Israel was targeting China as a major arms export market. The original Phalcon AEWC deal was for Israel to sell China the Phalcon system. That deal was terminated under US pressure at about the same time that India was negotiating for the original Phalcon purchase. There were also reports in 2015 that the ELTA EL-2052 radar that HAL has chosen for the LCA has already been compromised by it's design being leaked to China. A Chinese company called NAV Technology distributed AESA literature exhibiting ELTA marketing information at an airshow in China in 2015. NAV is a small company and it's owners appear to be heavily involved in setting up shell companies in the West and stealing technology. NAV is also working with the PAF for improving the efficiency of PAF INS systems. It is possible that NAV stole the Israeli AESA technology and then provided it to Nanjing Research Institute, a much larger company who have commercialized it. That radar will be mounted on the JF-17 Block 3 for the PAF and maybe also for the J-10C. Similarly the WS-10 engine is developed from technology stolen from the CFM-56II engine, a few of which were sold to China before an embargo was placed. This engine in turn is developed from the GE-F101 which powers the B-1 bomber. The big question of course will remain unanswered until tested in battle i.e. will any of the copies like the Nanjing radar copied from the EL-2052 or the WS-10 engine be equal in performance to the original EL-2052 which India will have on the Tejas or the F101 which the US uses.

 

[omaebakabaka]

It would be imprudent to assume that Indian army leadership had no pre-planning including logistics ready to capture key strategic rides to outflank PLA. Strengthening posts and securing it's connectivity/supply routes must have also been pre-planned. The volume of logistics we replenish at Siachin every day tells about our capabilities pretty loud.

There was no puzzle with pieces missing as far as logistics and tactics are concern but only the intent. We are the best army for high altitude mountain warfare. Rather than the game of Go it is two-rows linear Chess at play. The same game we played during and after operation Meghdoot to hold every height, that is to defend every square of the chessboard.

There is overwhelming evidence which includes official protests by China that Indian army has started changing the status quo. There is no need to doubt that Indian army has changed its method after waiting for a very log time expecting Chinese will start behaving. The mention of readjustment has officially come 2-3 times now. That should suffice every query that business is not as usual. Details come out sooner or later

You are right on, only thing that is different between last few years and before is the change in political landscape. We now have a government that is bold, confident and willing to put take a risk to challenge unruly neighbors. That was the challenge armed forces needed from govt to think out of the box and actually be prepared for various scenarios. Only unknown though is it does not come overnight, but what we are seeing from IA is highly confident stand.

 

[knathan]

Please checkout this thread

Military applications of Indian Space program

Military applications of Indian Space program

defenceforumindia.com

Thanks sir,
But whats the time frame to launch the mentioned satellites?
I came to know that in 1991 US iraq conflict US (or may be russia) launched 12 spy satellites in that time period.

 

[Flying Dagger]

@too much fantasy

Being imaginative is ok.

Agree to AMCA part.

What's the reason for saying no 5th gen is coming from an outside country?
Reasons why I ask:
(1) If AMCA does not mature on time we cannot be stuck with all previous generation fleet.
(2) IAF fields Light, Medium n Heavy. No new heavies are planned that are indigenous. Upgraded MKI can only do so much in the decades beyond 2030.

On what we shall be doing:
1. Upgrades
2. Induction of Lights
3. & 4. AMCA along with Rafales perhaps is induction of Mediums
5. MRCA 2.0!!!!! What's that? GOI would go for G2G.
Airforce won't necessarily look like that. Does not take into account MWF, limited no's of Heavy Fifth Gen in case AMCA is late or otherwise too.

Light heavy medium are just categories made for import of diff platforms.

If we had Rafale in 300+ number do you think we would have gone for Sukhoi now ?

There high goes off.

If we had Gripen / Tejas mk2 like fighter jet in 500-600 number with Sukhoi 30 do you think we would have gone for Rafale ?

There you go.

Its all abt having platforms that can take care of what enemy throws at us and provide us absolute superiority.

Yes we do need fifth gen fighter jet but the cost and dependence on other will be too high. We have a fructifying aerospace program at work. Tejas then mk2 possibly Tedbf/ORCA and 35-40 onwards AMCA.

Rafale more or less takes care of Chinese J 20 etc while Sukhoi upgrade will provide us ample edge.

Rest Tejas with AESA radar can take care of patrolling and interception against Porks.

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars Bring some TOS from Russian and armenian storage and arsenal and see.

On a lighter note.

 

[asingha94]

Suna h Rajdeep abhi bhi toilet pe behta h

 

[Spindrift]

Ya'll Nibbiars Bring some TOS from Russian and armenian storage and arsenal and see.

Our snipers are going to have fun shooting the cans on their backs and blowing them up and tuning them into Peking ducks.

 

[Echelon Four]

Posting third & final time

underwater volcanic eruption over the ocean... 15th to 18th September

 

[shade]

Mongolia has unofficial military pact with Russia, they dislike Chinese based on their shared history.

The current Mongolian state is a creation of Russians/Soviets to serve as a small buffer between it and China.
You are right btw, the Mongolian people hate the Chinese.
If Americans want to put Nukes aimed at China, Japan and SK are much better choices, or even Phillipines.
Most of China's good parts are already surrounded by US bases in Japan, Korea Philippines and Guam

 

[hit&run]

You are right on, only thing that is different between last few years and before is the change in political landscape. We now have a government that is bold, confident and willing to put take a risk to challenge unruly neighbors. That was the challenge armed forces needed from govt to think out of the box and actually be prepared for various scenarios. Only unknown though is it does not come overnight, but what we are seeing from IA is highly confident stand.

India has been avoiding and has (annoyingly) done every effort not to brand China as an enemy. OTOH, these bat eaters have been doing every apparent misadventure including protecting terrorists at UNO to attack us. They have now spent all their neighborly goodwill currency. Decoupling is in progress.

Their low life netizens use to make cartoon where Porkis and Chinese balloons surrounding an Indian balloon pushing and pinpricking with a smirk on their face. I used to think that only a low life coward would enjoy ganging up with likewise thug to bully a person.

Last year we shoved 370 feet long bamboo into Pakistani a$$. The piercing was so sharp that their lafanga PM cried inconsolably like a b1tch at the UN assembly. Now it's the turn of paper dragon China. The crying we read every day of Global Times only confirms the abrasions we are inflicting on them.