India-China 2020 Border conflict

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Haldilal

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Ya'll Nibbiars The PLA has intruded into five areas of western Bhutan and laid claim to a new boundary extending about many km inside Bhutan, to the east of Chumbi Valley, diplomats based in Thimpu and New Delhi said.

Alfa Wolf.
 
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DownWithCCP

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That's not the problem. I've got 3 issues -

1) The problem is is that the likes of Vishnu Som, Nitin and Saurav are saying the same thing, that India hasn't taken it

2) Lt Gen Panag and Hasnain said that Black Top is absolutely crucial

3) It makes all the media reports absolutely stink. All that talk of monitoring equipment etc, makes no f*cking sense.

I don't believe in the satellite imagery says anything, Indians won't show up tracks.
Same game, same as the one from the Balakot air strike is being played by some people ,unfortunately we still haven't learnt our lesson.

We always trend to(unconsciously or consciously) doubt the actions taken by our armed forces, confirmed by many ex-servicemen and other journalists just because a few of them are saying it hasn't happened and amongst them is a person who reported incorrectly even about the Galwan tent incident.

There is a collective tendency to believe unverified news that goes against us, often spread by some propaganda handles from twitter, without any verification, whereas other information which is in our interests with enough credible people giving their word for it is being doubted.
 

Suhaldev

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I think China Study Group is responsible for current Border mess.
They didn't show the clear picture of China's intention wrt India to the entire nation .
And now they are behaving as if they don't know why China attacked us .
No, CSG is totally irrelevant as intell things use to be dealt by JIS but was replaced with 4 dNSA under NSA. However, its not clear whether they failed to pass it on to army or army overlooked it.
 

ezsasa

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That's not the problem. I've got 3 issues -

1) The problem is is that the likes of Vishnu Som, Nitin and Saurav are saying the same thing, that India hasn't taken it

2) Lt Gen Panag and Hasnain said that Black Top is absolutely crucial

3) It makes all the media reports absolutely stink. All that talk of monitoring equipment etc, makes no f*cking sense.

I don't believe in the satellite imagery says anything, Indians won't show up tracks.
So your assumption is that all the moves made in the past 4 months are absolutely useless and for nothing?
 

ezsasa

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No, CSG is totally irrelevant as intell things use to be dealt by JIS but was replaced with 4 dNSA under NSA. However, its not clear whether they failed to pass it on to army or army overlooked it.
inputs to CSG comes from IA & ITBP(among other sources), where is the question of army overlooking it.
 

etantra

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Same game, same as the one from the Balakot air strike is being played by some people ,unfortunately we still haven't learnt our lesson.

We always trend to(unconsciously or consciously) doubt the actions taken by our armed forces, confirmed by many ex-servicemen and other journalists just because a few of them are saying it hasn't happened and amongst them is a person who reported incorrectly even about the Galwan tent incident.

There is a collective tendency to believe unverified news that goes against us, often spread by some propaganda handles from twitter, without any verification, whereas other information which is in our interests with enough credible people giving their word for it is being doubted.
Hit the nail on the head...
Plus even recently we know how the media misinterpreted the Galwan statements of PM... so much so a spoon feeding clarification had to be given.

so if I am faced with multiple information with sources, any patriotic person should give weightage to one which benefits the nation and shine the blow torch on the other ones.

If we on the web can't do basics of psywar right why blame some old babus in South block

when we give credence to fake narratives that hurt India, then we are damaging the Indian readers.( never mind giving succor the the enemy)

We know China's only tactic is to win without fighting and indulging fake narratives walks right into that trap
 

Shashank Nayak

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That's not the problem. I've got 3 issues -

1) The problem is is that the likes of Vishnu Som, Nitin and Saurav are saying the same thing, that India hasn't taken it

2) Lt Gen Panag and Hasnain said that Black Top is absolutely crucial

3) It makes all the media reports absolutely stink. All that talk of monitoring equipment etc, makes no f*cking sense.

I don't believe in the satellite imagery says anything, Indians won't show up tracks.
There is no way you get a confirmation one way or the other. considering the fact the MEA pu**ies/GOI didnt even bother to issue a clarification when chinese foreign ministry put out a separate statement putting words into Jaishankar's mouth..
So, no point in writing the same thing again and again
 

shade

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There is no way you get a confirmation one way or the other. considering the fact the MEA pu**ies/GOI didnt even bother to issue a clarification when chinese foreign ministry put out a separate statement putting words into Jaishankar's mouth..
So, no point in writing the same thing again and again
Even if GoI do put a statement out, those who want to be skeptical will still be skeptical.
During the Balakot madarsa bombing, people were lapping up the "HeHE , KaFfiRs JuSt BoMbeD SoMe TrEes LmAo" propaganda emanating from Rawalpindi, and GoI that time was direct, saying "Yes, we dropped bombs on Balakot"
 

The Indian Hawk

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Before foiling Chinese moves, India worked on plan for almost a month
By the crack of dawn, Indian forces had taken dominant positions on some key heights along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), snaking through the south bank of Pangong Tso to Rechin La near Rezang La.

This move threatened key Chinese positions on its side of the LAC, and provided India a bulwark against lost ground on the north bank of the lake.
 

ezsasa

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It's time people relearn the concept the gaslighting:
====================
11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting

Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality. It works much better than you may think. Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting, and it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders. It is done slowly, so the victim doesn't realize how much they've been brainwashed. For example, in the movie Gaslight (1944), a man manipulates his wife to the point where she thinks she is losing her mind.

1. They tell blatant lies.
You know it's an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie with a straight face. Why are they so blatant? Because they're setting up a precedent. Once they tell you a huge lie, you're not sure if anything they say is true. Keeping you unsteady and off-kilter is the goal.


2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
You know they said they would do something; you know you heard it. But they out and out deny it. It makes you start questioning your reality—maybe they never said that thing. And the more they do this, the more you question your reality and start accepting theirs.


3. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.
They know how important your kids are to you, and they know how important your identity is to you. So those may be one of the first things they attack. If you have kids, they tell you that you should not have had those children. They will tell you'd be a worthy person if only you didn't have a long list of negative traits. They attack the foundation of your being.


4. They wear you down over time.
This is one of the insidious things about gaslighting—it is done gradually, over time. A lie here, a lie there, a snide comment every so often...and then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self-aware people can be sucked into gaslighting—it is that effective. It's the "frog in the frying pan" analogy: The heat is turned up slowly, so the frog never realizes what's happening to it.


5. Their actions do not match their words.
When dealing with a person or entity that gaslights, look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying. What they are saying means nothing; it is just talk. What they are doing is the issue.

6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
This person or entity that is cutting you down, telling you that you don't have value, is now praising you for something you did. This adds an additional sense of uneasiness. You think, "Well maybe they aren't so bad." Yes, they are. This is a calculated attempt to keep you off-kilter—and again, to question your reality. Also look at what you were praised for; it is probably something that served the gaslighter.

7. They know confusion weakens people.
Gaslighters know that people like having a sense of stability and normalcy. Their goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question everything. And humans' natural tendency is to look to the person or entity that will help you feel more stable—and that happens to be the gaslighter.


8. They project.
They are a drug user or a cheater, yet they are constantly accusing you of that. This is done so often that you start trying to defend yourself, and are distracted from the gaslighter's own behavior.

9. They try to align people against you.
Gaslighters are masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will stand by them no matter what—and they use these people against you. They will make comments such as, "This person knows that you're not right," or "This person knows you're useless too." Keep in mind it does not mean that these people actually said these things. A gaslighter is a constant liar. When the gaslighter uses this tactic it makes you feel like you don't know who to trust or turn to—and that leads you right back to the gaslighter. And that's exactly what they want: Isolation gives them more control.

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.
This is one of the most effective tools of the gaslighter, because it's dismissive. The gaslighter knows if they question your sanity, people will not believe you when you tell them the gaslighter is abusive or out-of-control. It's a master technique.

11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.
By telling you that everyone else (your family, the media) is a liar, it again makes you question your reality. You've never known someone with the audacity to do this, so they must be telling the truth, right? No. It's a manipulation technique. It makes people turn to the gaslighter for the "correct" information—which isn't correct information at all.

 

omaebakabaka

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Summary of this thread with 121 pages:
Overall useful info <= 1%,
Twitter Regurgitating: 60%,
Memes: 60%,
Babu Blaming: 5%,
Jingo: 20%,
Armchair generals strategy discussions: 5% (real offense and defence scenarios based on speculated maps and locations)

PS: No science applied...random sampling. I think we should focus on the bolded item more.
 

Shashank Nayak

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Even if GoI do put a statement out, those who want to be skeptical will still be skeptical.
During the Balakot madarsa bombing, people were lapping up the "HeHE , KaFfiRs JuSt BoMbeD SoMe TrEes LmAo" propaganda emanating from Rawalpindi, and GoI that time was direct, saying "Yes, we dropped bombs on Balakot"
I dont mean a statement that blacktop has been captured will be put out by the government.. The situation is too fluid and defences not stabilized to be so confident of continued possession.. What i was pointing to was MEA releasing a separate statement on the outcome of the talks, like the one China put out saying that Jaishankar agreed that the bilateral relationship should not be impacted by border issues.. when infact Jaishankar's stance has been exactly the opposite..
 

Haldilal

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Ya'll Nibbiars While final word on Black Top is still shrouded in mystery, I think this should give everyone a fair idea what domination means. Armies don’t need to sometimes physically occupy a location to effectively dominate the area. Indian Army did a fantastic job occupying heights along the ridge line, overlooking vast expanse of land into Chinese area. Domination is by : 1. Observation - where we can see enemy locations, movement, change in deployments etc. 2. Fire - brining some effective fire of all sorts because now you can directly observe.

The Indian Army is fully capable and qualified to hold these heights in winters too, and continue this domination if chinese do not take steps to diffuse the situation. This location provides amazing flanking support to forces focused on Spangur gap by negating flanking move. to Chinese. Consolidating these positions will continue as IA is focused on creating a strong defensive position ahead of Chushul. IA will always have an edge in pure Infantry based warfare in mountains and by placing more boots on ground we enhance that advantage. Jai Hind.

Major MMJSM.
 
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Hellfire

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@Hellfire sirji, you have predicted a probable 96 hrs within which PLA can attempt to engineer a firefight or take earnest action.
I am presuming.

Because as a PLA land forces commander there, I would be loathe to allow Indian troops time to dig in. The position is pretty precarious with road to Rutog virtually open if India decides to move. Also, the present dispensation of Indian forces in the area allow for India to move in quickly to cut off the area and annihilate the garrison there.

I have a question. What if they don't? What if they keep doing ooga booga in front of IA positions with their oversized knives but not actually attack us?
That is also quite likely. I am basing my assumption of PLA being hard pressed and President Xi being slightly displeased at present.

Do you predict/think/envision GoI giving IA green light to evict our unwanted neighbors from our plot of land in Pangong? Apart from readjustments, do you see the decision to actively attack the Chinese bases being taken?
No.
Have attracted brickbats on this when I said so quite early in the present stand off too. We will not fire the first shot and they are looking to make us fire the first shot.

We can see more 'readjustments' happening.

Strangely, Wie qi or Go is being played out militarily (again, attracted rather smarta$$ quips from 'learned' members here over it too). But then, if China is your study zone in forces, you learn to appreciate (understand) the enemy's thoughts and read them well. What would I know? I merely act as a forces' guy & can be debunked 99.5% of the times but am not ;)

And on "Black Top" - we do not have it. Truth.

TROLL MODE ON


ZA1.JPG


TROLL MODE OFF
 

Hellfire

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One more thing.. Are Indian and Chinese Arctic tents.. or whichever tent they use on the ridges near Spanggur Tso, are they distinct from each other to be differentiable on say 1 metre or 50 cm resolution commercial satellite imagery..?

Not unless you have specifications of every kind of tent held by either side of the armies.

I wish we had. I can not differentiate between our 1 unit's tents from others' if the tents are procured from the ACSFP funds :)

Standard ordnance pattern also ... you may be hard pressed as the tents are quite alike with those in NATO armies and elsewhere.
 
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